A Diverse Group-CF.Net

[westtexas]

Oaxaca is a favorite for me. Cuernavaca is good to prowl around too.

Never quite made it that far south. About 10 years ago 4 buddies and myself took a month vacation and took a motorcycle trip down there. We went in at Juarez/El Paso and went down to Mexico City and then came back into the states at Matamoros/Brownsville. It was quite a trip. it really is a beautiful country.

 

[Claudya]

that is old, we haven't use the portable ones in years, there were land ones but those I think are gone. we haven't had track launched system in decades. they kinda aren't very accurate.that said the only reason we stayed in Germany is because your government asked us to stay over the dollars we americans put into that economy.clinton wanted all bases gone from Germany in 1998.

There are still US nuclear weapons in Germany. The government may be happy about money coming in but the people aren't very happy about that stuff being here. There was a discussion about modernising them vs replacing them by newer types of nuclear weapons this year.

 

[jasoncran]

I recall a flap over that with Poland during the bush days but I thought we didn't keep them there. but well what is the point. aim them at Russia?

 

[Claudya]

I bet they were aiming at Russia originally. But nowadays they could make an argumentation about protection against Iran or so.
The Poland story wasn't about nukes, but about Patriot defense systems. Russia wasn't happy about it. But the system that was originally planned under Bush didn't get built. Instead, the Obama goverment stationed a few mobile units or something like that.

 

[jasoncran]

patriots? lol those things. those cant shoot down missiles. they are joke for that. they fear our newest himad system? I used to be ada.i was shorad and we had shoulder launched missiles. himad is long range missiles and shorad is short range missiles. we can fire within seconds of set up where as the patriot cant.

 

[Mike S]

Okay if they are movable then would you please move them away from here?

I think we should. Europe has enough resources to protect herself. But. I've no doubt what would happen. American power has kept the peace in Europe for nearly 70 years, making it possible for countries like Germany to reinvent themselves as economic powerhouses. Without American military as the tip of the spear and the bulk of the power, Europe will have to defend herself, and individual countries will start making alliances with each other. How long do you think the European Union will last without America's military umbrella to protect her?

Europe like to think she's found the formula for permanent peace and prosperity, but she hasn't. Europeans know how to make war.

 

[jasoncran]

I think we should. Europe has enough resources to protect herself. But. I've no doubt what would happen. American power has kept the peace in Europe for nearly 70 years, making it possible for countries like Germany to reinvent themselves as economic powerhouses. Without American military as the tip of the spear and the bulk of the power, Europe will have to defend herself, and individual countries will start making alliances with each other. How long do you think the European Union will last without America's military umbrella to protect her?

Europe like to think she's found the formula for permanent peace and prosperity, but she hasn't. Europeans know how to make war.

I agree. let the eu deal with that and see how they like to spend on their defense when it happens.

 

[Claudya]

I agree. let the eu deal with that and see how they like to spend on their defense when it happens.

ROFL
That sounds like: "Let's grab some popcorn while we watch them go boom."

 

[jasoncran]

ROFL
That sounds like: "Let's grab some popcorn while we watch them go boom."

the germans from what I hear aren't rude to us but the French are. I have family that are still in france and our legal immigrants and they say that about them too.

 

[Claudya]

I think we should. Europe has enough resources to protect herself. But. I've no doubt what would happen. American power has kept the peace in Europe for nearly 70 years, making it possible for countries like Germany to reinvent themselves as economic powerhouses. Without American military as the tip of the spear and the bulk of the power, Europe will have to defend herself, and individual countries will start making alliances with each other. How long do you think the European Union will last without America's military umbrella to protect her?

Europe like to think she's found the formula for permanent peace and prosperity, but she hasn't. Europeans know how to make war.

No doubt the USA have played a tremendous role in establishing and maitaining peace in Europe after WWII. However, during the last ten or so years the USA have been perceived mostly as a politcal and economical troublemaker (spying on European governments, dragging down the world economy, blocking international climate protection regulations, waging war on a third world contry based on mere suspicion - or lies - that that country might have weapons of mass destruction, just to name a few). Those things may be seen one-sided or blown up by the press coverage, but it's not like many Europeans view the USA as our protective military umbrella. Becoming independent of the USA and having to protect ourselves may restore some feeling of unity and purpose that the EU has lost during the last years.
So maybe you are right, but I can also see how the opposite might happen.

 

[jasoncran]

brittain and france went to war with lybia over no such pretenses as we did in Iraq. yet they asked us to assist them. but well we are going into politics

 

[Mike S]

No doubt the USA have played a tremendous role in establishing and maitaining peace in Europe after WWII. However, during the last ten or so years the USA have been perceived mostly as a politcal and economical troublemaker (spying on European governments, dragging down the world economy, blocking international climate protection regulations, waging war on a third world contry based on mere suspicion - or lies - that that country might have weapons of mass destruction, just to name a few).

Most of that could have been avoided if we had realized the NATO's mission had been accomplished (to protect Western European countries from a militaristic Soviet Union. When the Soviet empire imploded, NATO should have been shut down. Instead it was reinvented as some sort of international roving "good guy" bent on solving all the world's problems. America should have re-examined our priorities, recognized that some world problems cannot be solved by us. As an exemple, we had no business interfering in the Balkan wars during the Clinton administration.

Those things may be seen one-sided or blown up by the press coverage, but it's not like many Europeans view the USA as our protective military umbrella. Becoming independent of the USA and having to protect ourselves may restore some feeling of unity and purpose that the EU has lost during the last years.
So maybe you are right, but I can also see how the opposite might happen.

Having traveled quite extensively through Europe, I say without hesitation, that Europeans understand America even less than Americans understand Europe. I won't burden you with the absolutely ignorant things I've listened to Europeans say about America during conversations, all the while thinking they're being perfectly perceptive.

 

[jasoncran]

the un asked us to get into the Balkan wars.

 

[Mike S]

the un asked us to get into the Balkan wars.

I don't consider the UN as being the appropriate place for US foreign policy to be determined.

 

[jasoncran]

that I agree with but we did act in their behalf with korea. well I thinks its kinda hard that we would standy and allow a genocide but then again we ignore sudan and other nations genocide.

 

[Mike S]

that I agree with but we did act in their behalf with korea. well I thinks its kinda hard that we would standy and allow a genocide but then again we ignore sudan and other nations genocide.

I agree, it's very difficult to ignore genocide. We think of ourselves as being better than that. But there IS a limit to what force can accomplish. Sometimes wars go on endlessly because the "world" doesn't permit them to be fought to a conclusion.

 

[jasoncran]

I agree, it's very difficult to ignore genocide. We think of ourselves as being better than that. But there IS a limit to what force can accomplish. Sometimes wars go on endlessly because the "world" doesn't permit them to be fought to a conclusion.

nam, Afghanistan and others. i can see that. well nam is a subject for me. we did win that, we just let the commies have that nation. we should have never intervened hindsight but once we entered we should have stayed the course.

 

[Claudya]

Most of that could have been avoided if we had realized the NATO's mission had been accomplished (to protect Western European countries from a militaristic Soviet Union. When the Soviet empire imploded, NATO should have been shut down. Instead it was reinvented as some sort of international roving "good guy" bent on solving all the world's problems. America should have re-examined our priorities, recognized that some world problems cannot be solved by us. As an exemple, we had no business interfering in the Balkan wars during the Clinton administration.

It seems a good idea to have an internationally recognised organisation that can check&balance, coordinate and mandate international military operations. But that's what the UN should be doing.
The Balkan wars were a difficult situation. The question is, does some international community, NATO or UN or EU have the right to intervene into a war or civil war to stop the killing (especially systematic geocide of civilians) and thus save lives? Or is that an illegal interference in the autonomy of that country?

Having traveled quite extensively through Europe, I say without hesitation, that Europeans understand America even less than Americans understand Europe. I won't burden you with the absolutely ignorant things I've listened to Europeans say about America during conversations, all the while thinking they're being perfectly perceptive.

It's very hard to understand a country huge and diverse as the USA. I barely understand my own country to be honest.
However, there is a lot of anti-American sentiment in people here. It was worse during the Bush era, but it's not gone now.

 

[jasoncran]

i am a jew. as such, darn the un. they have done nothing good for my family. while i am an American, i will let isreal be isreal. they are often hated by the un for simply doing what they must do. the un was formed so that they wouldn't be slaughtered and yet sides with those that will do just that.

 

[Mike S]

nam, Afghanistan and others. i can see that. well nam is a subject for me. we did win that, we just let the commies have that nation. we should have never intervened hindsight but once we entered we should have stayed the course.

I agree with you. I was in the Pacific for three years of the Vietnam War. I know that militarily we won the war, we lost it politically. It's very difficult for a democratic society to maintain a willingness to support a war when folks at home don't see vital national interests involved.