[_ Old Earth _] A documentary of the Phelps Westboro Church

[Jayls5]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6858417528


This takes an hour of your time. If you do not want to watch it, please do not respond.


Let me start by stating that the journalistic integrity of Luis Theroux was sub par. He was somewhat confrontational, and he should have disregarded the cultural norms that he supported. His interest should have only been to explain the the position of the Wesboro Baptist church, and that did not seem apparent from a neutral observer.

On to the personal opinion:

I think this, although a small sample, illustrates scientifically the effect of religious indoctrination in the youth. The young were successfully told to believe in one thing as an "absolute" based on scripture and did so without question. I can speculate as to why this is the case from an evolutionary standpoint. One might say that it is/was "evolutionarily useful" for the young to believe their elders without question; without that tendency, we may have long since passed had we not obeyed our elders without question at a young age. We no longer live in a society where this is necessary for survival though, and this is why we tend to scoff at those who exploit this tendency. We tend to abhor the teachings of those "supporting" any deaths of individuals as those "against God." However, we do not have cultural disdain for typical utilitarian religions such as mainstream Christianity, which I might suggest is only because they are utilitarian and generally agreeable.

I'll be the first to admit that the following is a series of loaded questions. I might ask, why support a religion for what it brings instead of merely supporting what it brings? Why is God necessary, given the endless examples of those who taint the word of "God" ?

Why not support the things you support alone? Why attribute it to a deity?

Assuming you have a position to your case, what makes it any stronger than those of the Wesboro Baptist church? How would you ground your position any more solidly than any faith?

Why should we accept one position as more likely from a scientific standpoint. For that matter, why should we accept one position as more likely from any standpoint, given the crazy religions that can result without scientific support?

 

[Orion]

Yep, . . . those at the Westboro Baptist Church are . . . . . REALLY out there! Figuratively and literally. They are amongst the [in my less than humble opinion] most hate filled groups out there.

 

[biblecatholic]

this group is really doing the devils work. All they preach is hatred out of their hearts...Even if somethings they preach against are wrong(ie homosexuality) but Jesus treated sinners with Love and even went to their homes and had dinner with them. Converting them with Love.....

 

[Jayls5]

this group is really doing the devils work. All they preach is hatred out of their hearts...Even if somethings they preach against are wrong(ie homosexuality) but Jesus treated sinners with Love and even went to their homes and had dinner with them. Converting them with Love.....

Do you find it ironic that they would use the exact same argument against you?

 

[biblecatholic]

this group is really doing the devils work. All they preach is hatred out of their hearts...Even if somethings they preach against are wrong(ie homosexuality) but Jesus treated sinners with Love and even went to their homes and had dinner with them. Converting them with Love.....

Do you find it ironic that they would use the exact same argument against you?

No satan is very active

 

[Jayls5]

this group is really doing the devils work. All they preach is hatred out of their hearts...Even if somethings they preach against are wrong(ie homosexuality) but Jesus treated sinners with Love and even went to their homes and had dinner with them. Converting them with Love.....

Do you find it ironic that they would use the exact same argument against you?

No satan is very active

I'm not really sure how to respond to that one.

 

[anna-Rose]

greetings

I saw the documentry at the ministers house after chapel one eavening last year some time if memory serves ( at univ ).

I then went on their web page and responded to most of the points they raised witch were not acuratly or compleatly represented in the documentry, so would be inclined to agree with one of the posts about it not being proper jernalism.

after investigating their claims I had to agree with them - a lot of what they say about homosexuality is Biblical and they hold to a lot of other Biblical teachings- the way they choose to express their veiws how ever is not.

as far as it depends on us we are to live at peace with all men.

they hold to the teaching of proverbs - train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it - teach them to Love God and the rest will come to pass as it were.

there are many things wrong in our own lives also and this took me many years to realise - standing in my own little glass house I should not throw stones - the windows would break and I would get hurt - having done this many times the cuts and shards hurt.

Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery after chalenging the pharacies and teachers of the law to throw the first stone if they had not sinned she was not condemned - and to go and sin no more

are we am I still so blind as to leave the plank in my own eye and pick out the speck in anothers? yes their actions are publicly seen but does God not judge the seacrt places of the heart on witch He looks when others see only the outward apearance.

what ever our mistakes public or private God knows the thoughts and intentions of the heart and in the end He will be the judge - He who said Judge not lest ye yourselves be Judged
dza devlefa
a-R

 

[Free]

are we am I still so blind as to leave the plank in my own eye and pick out the speck in anothers? yes their actions are publicly seen but does God not judge the seacrt places of the heart on witch He looks when others see only the outward apearance.

what ever our mistakes public or private God knows the thoughts and intentions of the heart and in the end He will be the judge - He who said Judge not lest ye yourselves be Judged

I respectfully disagree. "Judge not lest ye be judged" is probably the most oft quoted but misused verse in modern Christianity. The reason is that this verse appears to appeal to "political correctness" and so-called "tolerance" (probably the most misused and abused term outside of Christianity).

So, contrary to what you are saying, the Bible exhorts us to stand up for the truth of Scripture, which includes weeding out false teachers; that is an obligation of the Church. While the Bible does condemn homosexuality, among other sins, it clearly states that God loved us while we were still sinners. How can we then claim to know God, to follow the teachings of his Son and claim that he lives in us if we cannot also do the same? To say that God hates homosexuals is just as bad as saying the Bible supports homosexuality.

I could only handle watching the first couple minutes and that video and was utterly repulsed even though I had heard of this "church" before. There is nothing godly about anything that they are doing; the "pastor" is a false teacher of the worst sort. They preach hatred and it is precisely because of people like them that many will never believe in the message of the Cross.

Just as many in the West want Muslim leaders in the East to condemn the fanaticism of Islamic radicals, so the leaders in the Western Church ought to stand up and condemn the fanaticism of this so-called church (and others like it).

 

[anna-Rose]

greetings

we are told to love the sinner but hate the sin - this is what Jesus did for us when He came to be born as a Baby and die in the cross - our wrong thoughts and words and deeds and atitudes of the heart.
having said on the one hand you watched a couple of minutes of the vidio and then roundly condemning on the other hand the church and minister is being judgmental in the extreem - the first few minutes were not enough to base any sort of informed balanced opinion - take a look at their web page to see that they were miss represented more than a little on the program.

secondly
1st when we make a statement concerning what the Bible says we like the early church should search the scriptures to find out if what we think is the thruth actualy is the truth.

God hates all sin eaqualy but few sins are called by God abominations - homosexual acts are called such - here are the proofs from Bible gateway ESV so you may check them

Leviticus 20:13
13(A) If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Cross references:
Leviticus 20:13 : Leviticus 18:22

Judges 19:22
Gibeah’s Crime
22As they were(A) making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, worthless fellows,(B) surrounded the house, beating on the door. And they said to the old man, the master of the house, "Bring out the man who came into your house, that we may know him."
Cross references:
Judges 19:22 : Judges 19:6
Judges 19:22 : Judges 20:5; Gen 19:4

Romans 1:27
27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another,(A) men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Cross references:
Romans 1:27 : Lev 18:22; 20:13

1 Corinthians 6:9
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceivedA) neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 6:9 Or wrongdoers
1 Corinthians 6:9 The two Greek terms translated by this phrase refer to the passive and active partners in consensual homosexual acts
Cross references:
1 Corinthians 6:9 : 1 Corinthians 15:50; Gal 5:21; Eph 5:5; 1 Tim 1:9; Heb 12:14; 13:4; Rev 21:8; 22:15
10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 1:9
9understanding this, that the(A) law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
10the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,[a] liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to(A) sound doctrine,

Footnotes:
1 Timothy 1:10 That is, those who take someone captive in order to sell him into slavery
1 Timothy 1:10 Or healthy
Cross references:
1 Timothy 1:10 : 2 Tim 4:3; 1 Timothy 6:3; 2 Tim 1:13; Titus 1:13; 2:2

then there is the whole question of Jesus saying to the woman caught in adultery - go and sin no more - no one is beyond redemption when they ask forgivness of God - He who conceals his sin does not prosper - but who ever confesses and renounces them finds mercy - proverbs ch 28 v 13

dza devlefa
a-R

 

[love2live]

God hates all sin eaqualy but few sins are called by God abominations - homosexual acts are called such - here are the proofs from Bible gateway ESV so you may check them

Leviticus 20:13
13(A) If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

I'm not really sure if all homosexuals have "choice", just like hermaphrodites there are genetic imperfections which can cause the so-called "confusion" which is often associated with homosexuals. There are people with mental disorders which were just born like that, I doubt God wants to punish them...

There are babies born with both organs, yet they only posses XY or XX chromosomes, sometimes they look more like a girl yet have XY chromosomes, other times they look more like a boy and have XX chromosomes. So why hasn't anybody considered that some homosexuals have chemical/genetic disorder like other known birth defects?

 

[Vic C.]

So why hasn't anybody considered that some homosexuals have chemical/genetic disorder like other known birth defects?

Question: Would these disorders hinder them from receiving and living by the word of God, The Good News?

Question: Do other "birth defects" cause one to sin also? If so, which ones, for clarification.

 

[Jayls5]

So why hasn't anybody considered that some homosexuals have chemical/genetic disorder like other known birth defects?

Question: Would these disorders hinder them from receiving and living by the word of God, The Good News?

Question: Do other "birth defects" cause one to sin also? If so, which ones, for clarification.

Hmm, let me think.

A man is born with epilepsy. He has a seizure while driving and kills someone, breaking the 6th commandment.

A man is born with turrets syndrome, and he uses the lord's name in vain.

Those two were just off the top of my head.

This thread's getting off topic anyway.

 

[Vic C.]

... Hmm, let me think.

A man is born with epilepsy. He has a seizure while driving and kills someone, breaking the 6th commandment.

A man is born with turrets syndrome, and he uses the lord's name in vain.

Those two were just off the top of my head.

This thread's getting off topic anyway.

It's not too off topic. I'm pretty sure it relates in some way to the topic at hand. The scenarios you mentioned might be considered sins with the Phelps people. I would disagree though; the sixth commandment says murder (as in premeditated), not kill; accidental death isn't breaking the commandment.

Turrets syndrome probably wouldn't be breaking any commandments either.

Both cases occur without any thought in the matter.

Are you suggesting those with homosexual tendencies cannot help themselves; their thoughts are greater and more powerful than God's will? A case can be made against that which many documents cases of homosexuality were overcome through Faith. Besides, the so-called homosexual gene has been wildly debated and finding disproved in several cases.

Sad thing is, so many bought into the lie before these findings were disclosed. the Adversary works fast.

 

[anna-Rose]

greetings

the Bible is clear

we are all responsible for our own actions - for witch we will have to give an account to God when we stand befor Him on the day of judgment.

hamaphrodytes are rare and it is the body that is formed with the faulty geanes - BUT God knows each person befor they were made and wilest they are being formed in the seacret places - like in Job and always provides a way out of temptation for He never gives us in temptation more than we can bare.

I do not think debating along these lines is of any benefit if clear scripture quotes and explanations are not acepted - the person asking these questions is clearly not interested in Biblilcal explanations rather trying to make the Bible say it would seam , to say what it does not.

a person cannot put their own ideas as fact where there is only theroy or twist the Word of God with out entering into the danger of calling God a lier and making a cult - with those who would do such things the Bible is clear - have nothing to do with them

a-R

 

[Jayls5]

... Hmm, let me think.

A man is born with epilepsy. He has a seizure while driving and kills someone, breaking the 6th commandment.

A man is born with turrets syndrome, and he uses the lord's name in vain.

Those two were just off the top of my head.

This thread's getting off topic anyway.

It's not too off topic. I'm pretty sure it relates in some way to the topic at hand. The scenarios you mentioned might be considered sins with the Phelps people. I would disagree though; the sixth commandment says murder (as in premeditated), not kill; accidental death isn't breaking the commandment.

Turrets syndrome probably wouldn't be breaking any commandments either.

Both cases occur without any thought in the matter.

Are you suggesting those with homosexual tendencies cannot help themselves; their thoughts are greater and more powerful than God's will? A case can be made against that which many documents cases of homosexuality were overcome through Faith. Besides, the so-called homosexual gene has been wildly debated and finding disproved in several cases.

Sad thing is, so many bought into the lie before these findings were disclosed. the Adversary works fast.

Murder is essentially a variable term, subject to the whim of the state. If a man drove his car knowing he had epilepsy, he could be charged with murder by our laws, and thus break the 6th commandment. If you then want to claim that a person had to be conscious in order to commit murder, you couldn't effectively charge a drunk driver who passed out at the wheel.

On homosexuality...

I say it's reasonable to accept the possibility that homosexuals feel the same urges as heterosexuals, only for the same sex. From that standpoint, they can't help themselves sexually. They might be able to hold back from actually doing it, just as I can make myself celibate. I would consider them to be deprived individuals if convinced by the church, duped into thinking that their sexual preference is wrong based on an archaic moral code. In an age where we realize there is value in a consistent moral code that allows people to do what they want if it does not harm others, I don't see it as wrong for any compelling reason what-so-ever.

It really doesn't matter whether it's based upon genes or personal preference to me.