[__ Science __ ] A Hill to Die On

[miamited]

Hi Barbarian

No. If He should do something logically absurd, (like stopping the Sun when rotating around the Earth, when it never did such a thing) then He would be a god of confusion.

I don't understand your position here. You're the only one who has made such a claim as God stopping the sun from rotating around the earth. I don't believe I've ever argued that position. But, no matter the mechanics of 'how' God caused the shadow cast by the sun to go back 10 steps, you do agree that it happened? Right?

Yes. Which would have required degrees of magnitude more miracles. Which He could do. My observation is that in this world, He does things as simply as possible.

So, for God getting the sun to act in some way, outside of its natural movements, would not be a simple task? I'm going to assume that you've confirmed that with Him?

We don't know for sure if it's figurative or literal. A clue is that there was a huge flood in the Middle East about the right time, when the Black Sea formed suddenly by the intrusion of the Mediterranean.

It doesn't say the whole Earth (tebel).
But it is an allegory about man's sin and God's forgiveness. It was a common story in Mesopotamia, and in areas with unpredictable rivers. It's in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh actually meets Noah in that story. There are all sorts of interpretations. I think the Black Sea flood is a good candidate.

Well, needless to say, I'm not in agreement with your ruminations. BTW, 'we', used in the first quote, being 'who'? I don't think there's much debate about it among those who are born again believers in the one true and living God.

As for your 'large' flood only being somewhat local, here's what God's word says:

“I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
"I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish."
"Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”

They (the waters) rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits. Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

Now, I'm guessing you don't understand 'under the entire heavens' as being the whole earth?

However, I've made my argument. From what I'm understanding from most of your points is that you don't believe that a lot of the miraculous things that God tells us happened, actually happened. I don't read the Scriptures that way and I'm pretty confident that Jesus didn't explain the flood in that way, either.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Barbarian]

I don't understand your position here. You're the only one who has made such a claim as God stopping the sun from rotating around the earth. I don't believe I've ever argued that position. But, no matter the mechanics of 'how' God caused the shadow cast by the sun to go back 10 steps, you do agree that it happened? Right?

I think it did. If it was an allegory of God's power, would that be a problem?

So, for God getting the sun to act in some way, outside of its natural movements, would not be a simple task? I'm going to assume that you've confirmed that with Him?

It would require precise changes in a lot of things. Complexity isn't a problem for Him. But I note that He generally minimizes complexity in nature. Engineers are beginning to realize that evolutionary processes are more effective for complex problems than design would be. Genetic algorithms copy natural selection to produce optimum solutions. Mutation and natural selection are more efficient than design. God is very wise. For whatever reasons, He favors simplicity and elegance in His works.

Now, I'm guessing you don't understand 'under the entire heavens' as being the whole earth?

That was when the Hebrews assumed that the Earth was flat with the heavens above them, separated by a solid dome. But if they meant the whole world, they would have used the word for the whole world.

"Eretz" means land. "Tebel" means the whole world. The flood account uses eretz.

However, I've made my argument. From what I'm understanding from most of your points is that you don't believe that a lot of the miraculous things that God tells us happened, actually happened. I don't read the Scriptures that way and I'm pretty confident that Jesus didn't explain the flood in that way, either.

He often spoke in parables, after all. I don't think we're going to agree on this. I'm aware that good Christians disagree on these things, and remain good Christians. And that's pretty much the bottom line.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Which one? There are two genealogies of Jesus in the Bible, which are contradictory, if you take them as literal.

They're not contrafictory. They split at David, because Matthew shows Jesus is the son of Abraham and David, even though no son of Coniah would ever rule Israel. Coniah was the son of Solomon, but Davids' son Nathan is Christs' ancestor through Mary.

There's no difference in when David or Abraham lived, or when they lived after Adam.

 

[Barbarian]

They're not contrafictory.

They are. Mutually contradictory. No point in denial. Would you like me to show you?

 

[Barbarian]

And I explained the apostles thought they were seeing a ghost. Jesus is God, regardless of his form.

Jesus had a body only after becoming human. He is both wholly man and wholly God. The father, and the Holy Spirit however, are purely spirits and as Jesus says, have no bodies.

 

[Barbarian]

And the law is simply the knowledge of good and evil defined. So there's no difference between Jew and gentile being guilty of sin against the only God there is.

Which is why Paul tells us those not having the law are justified by following natural law, which God gives to all men.

 

[Barbarian]

Mathew wrote Josephs' ancestry and Luke wrote Marys', but there is no contradiction of thousands of years between them.

Nope. Both claim to have Joseph in each line. Nothing about Mary.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

They are. Mutually contradictory. No point in denial. Would you like me to show you?

No, because they're not contradictory where a time frame is the point.
For some reason, you won't admit in both gospels, from David to Jesus is thousands of years

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Jesus had a body only after becoming human. He is both wholly man and wholly God. The father, and the Holy Spirit however, are purely spirits and as Jesus says, have no bodies.

So you're saying Jesus was Spirit before he had a body, but wasn't afterward.
That's not true.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Which is why Paul tells us those not having the law are justified by following natural law, which God gives to all men.

"Showing the work of the law" or "by nature" is the point.

The "work of the law" is to convict sinners. So is "conscience."

Therefore we see "the work of the law" either "accusing" or "excusing" the sinner.
So does "conscience."

The "work of the law" only "excuses" the repentant. It always accuses the unrepentant.
So does conscience.

 

[hawkman]

"Eretz" means land. "Tebel" means the whole world. The flood account uses eretz.

What did the land/earth look like before the flood ? One mass , a flood of all the land .

It's in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh actually meets Noah in that story.

A LOT of cultures have a flood story , maybe a common source I think .

Flood Legends From Around the World

Native global flood stories are documented as history or legend in almost every region on earth. Old world missionaries reported their amazement at finding remote tribes already possessing legends with tremendous similarities to the Bible's accounts of the worldwide flood. H.S. Bellamy in Moons, Myths and Men estimates that altogether there are over 500 Flood legends worldwide. Ancient civilizations such as (China, Babylonia, Wales, Russia, India, America, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, and Polynesia) all have their own versions of a giant flood.
These flood tales are frequently linked by common elements that parallel the Biblical account including the warning of the coming flood, the construction of a boat in advance, the storage of animals, the inclusion of family, and the release of birds to determine if the water level had subsided. The overwhelming consistency among flood legends found in distant parts of the globe indicates they were derived from the same origin (the Bible's record), but oral transcription has changed the details through time.

Perhaps the second most important historical account of a global flood can be found in a Babylonian flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh. When the Biblical and Babylonian accounts are compared, a number of outstanding similarities are found that leave no doubt these stories are rooted in the same event or oral tradition.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Nope. Both claim to have Joseph in each line. Nothing about Mary.

It seems having 2 geneologies because people have 2 parents is beyond is the comprehension.of some people.

Luke simply chose not to mention any women which is apparently beyond your comprehension.

Maybe this is where "My Two Dads" came from. Joseph, son of Jacob and Heli.

 

[Barbarian]

Mathew wrote Josephs' ancestry and Luke wrote Marys', but there is no contradiction of thousands of years between them.

Nope. Both claim to have Joseph in each line. Nothing about Mary.

It seems having 2 geneologies because people have 2 parents is beyond is the comprehension.of some people.

Both purport to be Joseph's line. Would you like me to show you?

Luke simply chose not to mention any women which is apparently beyond your comprehension.

They don't even agree on who Joseph's father was. C'mon.

No, because they're not contradictory where a time frame is the point.

They offer different chronologies and skip some generations from David.

Genealogy of Jesus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No one really knows why they disagree so greatly; there are many guesses but no solid explanations.

 

[Barbarian]

"Eretz" means land. "Tebel" means the whole world. The flood account uses eretz.

What did the land/earth look like before the flood ? One mass , a flood of all the land .

No, Pangea was hundreds of millions of years before humans. Moreover, if the continents had slid to their present positions in even many years, the energy required to accelerate than then stop them would have been enough to boil oceans. Every living thing on the Ark would have been steam-cooked.

But even if you throw out all the facts, we still see the story does not say the world (tebel) was flooded.

 

[Barbarian]

The "work of the law" only "excuses" the repentant. It always accuses the unrepentant.
So does conscience.

Which was Paul's point. Justification is by following the law. Those without the law understood by Israel, were justifed by natural law. Assuming they followed it.

Which is why Paul evangelized the gentiles.

 

[Barbarian]

So you're saying Jesus was Spirit before he had a body, but wasn't afterward.
That's not true.

No. He is wholly God and wholly man. Jesus appeared to the Apostles as a man, showing them that He was the man they knew and followed. This doesn't mean that He isn't a spirit. We might not understand how He can be completely God and completely man but that is what He is.

 

[hawkman]

Deja vu all over again Barbarian , we were lost in the flood in August of 21 , lol .

https://christianforums.net/threads/is-historical-science-useful.87338/

 

[Barbarian]

Deja vu all over again Barbarian , we were lost in the flood in August of 21 , lol .

https://christianforums.net/threads/is-historical-science-useful.87338/

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Which was Paul's point. Justification is by following the law. Those without the law understood by Israel, were justifed by natural law. Assuming they followed it.

Which is why Paul evangelized the gentiles.

As long as Christians understand, gentiles will be condemned without the law,

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Rom.2:12

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Nope. Both claim to have Joseph in each line. Nothing about Mary.

Both purport to be Joseph's line. Would you like me to show you?

They don't even agree on who Joseph's father was. C'mon.

They offer different chronologies and skip some generations from David.

Genealogy of Jesus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No one really knows why they disagree so greatly; there are many guesses but no solid explanations.

That's fine. Aslong as Christians understand that Jesus is the descendant of Adam who lived about 4000 thousand years ago.