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[__ Science __ ] A Hill to Die On

Behe has since admitted that irreducible complexity can evolve. It's been observed to evolve.
Since you have no quote I can only assume it's made up.
But as we learned more about it, turns out the flagellum has an evolutionary precursor.
The source you cited was only explaining what the T3SS is, not it's origin. Millers argument is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of irreducible-complexity. There are numerous articles explaining how it makes more sense the T3SS came from the flagellum, not the other way around. Behe has been vindicated and Miller is refuted:

"Phylogenomic and comparative analyses of these systems argue that the NF-T3SS arose from an exaptation of the flagellum, i.e. the recruitment of part of the flagellum structure for the evolution of the new protein delivery function."

and another:

"We suggest that the flagellar apparatus was the evolutionary precursor of Type III protein secretion systems."

It's further proof of Behe's First Rule of Adaptive Evolution: "Break or blunt any gene whose loss would increase the number of offspring.” -Darwin Devolves


The eye has been proposed to be irreducibly complex, but in nature we see every step from a simple dark patch on the surface of an organism to the highly complex vertebrate and mollusk eyes. In the mollusks, all these steps still exist.
So?

Behe's biochemical challenge addresses a light sensitive cell, not whether various iterations of a light sensitive cells exists. In order to criticize something you at least have to understand the basics of it.
A religion, it was found to be by the Dover court. At best a philosophy, which overtly claims to be for the purpose of establishing God.
"Governing Goals

  • To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
  • To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God."
Discovery Institute's declaration of goals (see above)


And here's another example. If you had done a little research you'd perhaps notice that some IDers (e.g. Michael Denton) have distanced themselves from the religion part of ID and have suggested a "designer" who "might be a space alien" (Philip Johnson, Darwin on Trial) who "front-loaded" the universe to produce living things by natural means. Denton goes out of his way to show that a reasonable philosophy of ID is inconsistent with special creationism and says so (Nature's Destiny)

Which seems pretty likely to me, given scripture and what I've seen of living systems. Except the space alien, of course. But it's still a religious doctrine, albeit an accurate one IMO.
The supreme court ruled corporations are people in the Riggs case. Do you see the problem with relying on a court decision to make an argument for you?

Religion has a definition and it doesn't apply to scientific theories. Relying on a court case, as opposed to an actual dictionary, is further proof of what a strawman argument those labels are.

Whether scientific concepts lead to atheism or theism, it says nothing about their validity or invalidity.
Are variation, heredity, and selection philosophy for the purpose of establishing atheism?

My family was indifferent to religion but Darwin's theory sure pushed my brothers into atheism. Paley's watchmaker argument had a lot to do with changing my views later in life. But Darwin's theory isn't a religion or a religious doctrine anymore than ID theory. Slapping a label of on something is merely an attempt to avoid dealing with biases. We can address the science or address the implications of the science. But these "gotcha" arguments aren't anymore persuasive than being called a socialist.
 
There's an important distinction to make here since you're saying ID theory is a legal strategy. Legal strategies are one thing scientific theories are another.
Is there some reason you ignored the question whether or not irreducible-complexity was a legal strategy?
We don't want to setup a strawman. ID theory is a scientific theory, not a legal strategy.
The theory of evolution is not a legal strategy anymore than ID theory is. Variation, heredity, and selection aren't legal strategies any more than irreducible-complexity or specified-complexity.
All you've done here is repeat your original assertion without adding any supporting evidence or advancing any new arguments. As far as IC being a legal strategy, it's not directly that. It's one aspect of ID creationism, which as I've shown and a federal court has ruled, is most definitely a legal strategy.

Sure, I'm interested as long as we understand the difference between ID theory and the views of those associated with it. In other words, climate science is one thing while the real world impact of climate science is another.
First, there is no "ID theory". In science, an explanation only becomes a "theory" when it successfully explains a wide range of observations/phenomena, and stands up to scientific testing. IDC hasn't explained a single thing nor has it ever been scientifically tested.

As far the list of reasons why ID is not science and is a form of creationism, let's start with....

Consider Paul Nelson's article to young-earth creationists, "Life in the Big Tent: Traditional Creationism and the Intelligent Design Community" (PDF). In that article, he describes the history of how IDC came to be...

Let's begin with some history. The year 1997 marks a noteworthy turning point in the American debate over the science and philosophy of origins. In that year, a long cultural battle that had begun more than a quarter century earlier with Henry Morris and John Whitcomb's classic, The Genesis Flood, in 1961 appeared to many onlookers to have come decisively to an end when the Edwards v. Aguillard decision of the U.S. Supreme Court declared creation-science to be a religious belief.

Note how he starts off by referring to the impact of the SCOTUS ruling against creationism in public schools.

The two-model approach to the origin's controversy was now dead.

Note: The "two model approach" argues that the only explanations for the history of life on earth are evolution and creationism, and that an argument against evolution is therefore an argument for creationism.

Edwards v. Aguillard seemingly had ended the public debate over origins. A revolution from an unexpected quarter, however, was about to occur. In 1987, Phillip Johnson, a professor of law at the University of California, Berkeley, was taking a year's sabbatical in London, England.

Every day on the walk to his office, he passed a book shop where Richard Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker and Michael Denton's Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, were on sale. Curious, Johnson bought the books and read them through. He noticed immediately that the ostensible issues of Edwards v. Aguillard were not the real issues at all

The creationists in Louisiana never had a chance. Because of the way science was defined in the debate, the very possibility of evidence against Darwinian evolution had been excluded at the outset. Reading the amicus briefs in Edwards v. Aguillard...Johnson discovered that...the ground rules of science had tilted the playing field irrevocably in favor of Darwinian evolution.

In Darwin on Trial, the influential book that drew out of his 1987 insights, Johnson wrote, "The academy does define science in such a way that advocates of supernatural creation may neither argue for their own position nor dispute the claims of the scientific establishment".

So here we see a prominent ID creationist (and young-earth creationist) from the Discovery Institute referring to ID as part of their battle against "naturalism" (as do young-earth creationists) and explaining how ID creationism arose out of the ashes of the SCOTUS ruling against creationism, which is entirely consistent with the changes in the textbook "Of Pandas and People" we discussed earlier.

In June 1993, Johnson invited several of the mostly younger members of that community to a conference at the California beach town of Pajaro Dunes. Present were scientists and philosophers who themselves would later become well-known such as biochemist Michael Behe...mathematician and philosopher, William Dembski...and developmental biologist, Jonathan Wells...

We see that after the SCOTUS ruling, when everyone thought the goal of teaching creationism in schools was dead, Phillip Johnson thought of a new way to argue for creationism and called together what was later to become the key members of the ID movement and enlisted them to aid in his religious apologetics movement.

Johnson saw that allowing for the possibility of design as special divine action, for instance, God creating human beings directly, meant that one must also allow for other possibilities, such as God electing, if he so chose, to use an evolutionary process that wasn't self-designed.

I believe, Johnson wrote, that "a God exists who could create out of nothing if he wanted to do so. But he might have chosen to work through a natural evolutionary process instead". God could have created everything in six 24-hour days or not.


The fundamental point is to allow for the possibility of design. The scientific narrative of design, when God acted, and how, might capture any number of competing theories.
[/INDENT]

Once again we see the fellows at the Discovery Institute explaining quite clearly that ID is explicitly about God, which = creationism, and how He created living things, which immediately removes it from the realm of science.

continued....
 
continued...

ID theorists are not blind to the impact of their theory. Materialism will die once the principle of specified-complexity and irreducible-complexity is accepted.
That would only be true if ID was about gods, which would make it a form of creationism and remove it from the realm of science. Can't have it both ways here....can't try and pretend that ID creationism is science while also saying its mechanism is creation by gods.

So what? Darwin's theory created atheists, who cares if ID creates some theists. I think it's a good thing. While my brother is an atheist he really went all in while getting his masters in chemical engineering. Scientific theories have consequences, ID theory is no different.
Not at all the same. The evidence very clearly shows that ID creationism was specifically crafted by creationists as a legal strategy to advance sectarian religious and social goals. That's not science.

Quotes without a citation? I searched Behe's testimony he did not say those words.
It's from the judge's ruling (pg. 28)

In the assertion: "not only can evolutionary mechanisms generate such systems, the evidence shows that they have." is a world of improbability. Science deals in probabilities, not absolutes.
Barbarian has already posted a paper about a lab experiment where it was observed to happen.

Like the prudent scientist he is, Behe addressed such claims in Darwin's Black Box:
Doesn't matter. We've seen an IC system evolve in the lab.

While Darwinists find their conclusions convincing, what they're not telling everyone is how improbable it is evolution produced such systems.
Let's see your calculations.

Creationism is the belief God created the universe and all life in it. Intelligent design theory says we can determine an intelligent cause from an accidental or contingent cause.
That's the charade, deliberately created to subvert court rulings. But as the Dover trial showed, ID is indeed just another form of creationism (like young-earth creationism, old-earth creationism, progressive creationism, day-age creationism, etc.).

The most well know example of this is the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence (SETI). These people get millions in government funding because they say the can determine the difference between static and intelligence.
That's a very old creationist argument that's been done to death and is quite wrong.


Dembski, Meyer, and others say they can determine the difference between life having an accidental or intelligent cause and people want to label them creationists.
LOL...they label themselves creationists (emphasis mine)...

"In March 1992, a landmark symposium took place at Southern Methodist University in Dallas. At that meeting, Phillip Johnson, Stephen Meyer, William Dembski, Michael Behe, and other Christian scholars squared off against several prominent Darwinists. The topic of debate was "Darwinism: Science or Philosophy?"

The remarkable thing about the meeting was the collegial spirit that prevailed. Creationists and evolutionists met as equals to discuss serious intellectual questions.
"

Slapping a label on that bad boy and hand waving shows a lack of critical thinking. Coming up with a rational, logical argument against Intelligent Design theory requires actually understanding the difference between ID theory and creationism.
If that's all that went on, you'd have a point. The problem is, your depiction of the situation is completely off base and inaccurate. First, there is an enormous amount of evidence showing that ID is a form of creationism and was crafted as a legal strategy. Second, lots of scientists spent lots of time and effort showing how ID creationism is meaningless and vacuous from a scientific perspective.

Referring to ID theory as creationism in a cheap tuxedo may get some laughs from the peanut gallery. But it doesn't present any actual criticism. Meanwhile, Darwin's theory is dying a silent death.
Ah yes, the oldest trope from creationists. Y'all have been claiming that for almost 200 years. Ah yes, the oldest trope from creationists. Y'all have been claiming that for almost 200 years.
 
The source you cited was only explaining what the T3SS is, not it's origin.
Merely shows that the flagellum, evolved from the Type III secretory apparatus. So not irreducibly complex after all. Another icon of creationism debunked.

The supreme court ruled corporations are people in the Riggs case.
Not surprising. Historically, corporations have been considered legal persons.

It's further proof of Behe's First Rule of Adaptive Evolution: "Break or blunt any gene whose loss would increase the number of offspring.”
Nope. The Type III secretory apparatus is still there. How can that be? If you thought about it, I'm sure you could see how that works. And It seems very odd even for a creationist to consider the bacterial flagellum to be "broken." It usually works very well, indeed.

The eye has been proposed to be irreducibly complex, but in nature we see every step from a simple dark patch on the surface of an organism to the highly complex vertebrate and mollusk eyes. In the mollusks, all these steps still exist.

So another supposed irreducibly complex organ turns out to not be irreducibly complex. There's a pattern here...
Behe's biochemical challenge addresses a light sensitive cell, not whether various iterations of a light sensitive cells exists.
In fact, the evidence shows that complex eyes are not irreducibly complex; they evolved from very simple beginnings.

Behe's biochemical challenge addresses a light sensitive cell,
All cells are light sensitive to some degree. The key is a bit of pigment can make a spot more sensitive to light. I thought you knew. So that's not an adequate excuse.

Religion has a definition and it doesn't apply to scientific theories.
This is religion:
"Governing Goals
  • To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
  • To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God."
(Discovery Institute's declaration of goals)

This is a scientific theory:
  • Reproductive surplus: more offspring are created than needed.
  • Every individual is slightly different than its parents
  • Some difference affect the likelihood of surviving long enough to reproduce
  • Natural selection tends to remove the harmful ones and tends to preserve the useful ones. And this accumulates over time. Speciation is often the eventual result.
My family was indifferent to religion but Darwin's theory sure pushed my brothers into atheism.
It usually goes the other way:
But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

“From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true?”

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said ‘No!’ A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, “Wait a minute. There has to be one!” But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now, but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.

And being through with creationism, I very nearly became through with Christianity. I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist.

YE creationism is a powerful atheist-maker.
Slapping a label of on something is merely an attempt to avoid dealing with biases.
Words have meaning. An ideology intent on establishing the existence of God is a religious ideology, not science.
 
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I should probably explain this a bit better...

This is religion:
"Governing Goals
  • To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
  • To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God."
(Discovery Institute's declaration of goals) Notice no testable hypotheses, no predictions. Real scientific theories have testable predictions. Science is a method that cannot confirm or deny the supernatural. This is a religious doctrine or possibly a religious philosophy, if it's based on some kind of logic.

This is a scientific theory:
  • Reproductive surplus: more offspring are created than needed.
  • Every individual is slightly different than its parents
  • Some difference affect the likelihood of surviving long enough to reproduce
  • Natural selection tends to remove the harmful ones and tends to preserve the useful ones. And this accumulates over time. Speciation is often the eventual result.
These make testable predictions, all of which have been verified by subsequent evidence. Hypotheses, once they are verified repeatedly by confirmed predictions are considered to be theories.
 
All those transitional forms are God's creation. That's how he makes new kinds. There is no conflict between the evidence and God.
I know you interpret things that way.
I'm simply saying knowing God made man fully formed, or set the stars where they are in an instand is the answer.
Any assumption should never be taught as truth.
 
I know you interpret things that way.
Comes down to evidence. It's not just that common descent was first shown in the 1700s. It's that there are a huge number of transitional series of fossils where such transitions are predicted by evolutionary theory, but never where it isn't predicted. And then DNA analysis which very, very closely agrees with family trees of taxa first noted several hundred years ago.
I'm simply saying knowing God made man fully formed, or set the stars where they are in an instand is the answer.
It just doesn't fit what we actually see in nature. I realize some creationists use "apparent age", but since God is truth, there's really no possibility that He is deceptive.
 
Comes down to evidence. It's not just that common descent was first shown in the 1700s. It's that there are a huge number of transitional series of fossils where such transitions are predicted by evolutionary theory, but never where it isn't predicted. And then DNA analysis which very, very closely agrees with family trees of taxa first noted several hundred years ago.

It just doesn't fit what we actually see in nature. I realize some creationists use "apparent age", but since God is truth, there's really no possibility that He is deceptive.
My friend, the only time God was subject to his own laws was when he voluntarily submitted to them in Christ.
For instance, God isn't subject to death because he isn't a sinner.
He defeated death in the presence of mankind for our benefit. So that our faith would be in him.
Death never had any power over him, even though it seemed that way.
 
My friend, the only time God was subject to his own laws was when he voluntarily submitted to them in Christ.
But He seems remarkably consistent in applying the laws by which this world works. Which is why all the evidence points to evolution and common descent. There's a good reason for that, BTW.

Engineers have discovered that evolution works better than design for very complex problems. They've started copying God's methods to solve some of those problems. They copy evolution in programs called "genetic algorithms."

Once again, God knew best.
 
But He seems remarkably consistent in applying the laws by which this world works. Which is why all the evidence points to evolution and common descent. There's a good reason for that, BTW.

Engineers have discovered that evolution works better than design for very complex problems. They've started copying God's methods to solve some of those problems. They copy evolution in programs called "genetic algorithms."

Once again, God knew best.
God made everything out of nothing, even though what composes creation has the appearance of having always existed. But It didn't.
 
God made everything out of nothing, even though what composes creation has the appearance of having always existed. But It didn't.
The point is that in this universe, evolution works better than design. And God being truthful, He would not create deceptive things.
 
My position is God would not deceive us by making a false appearance of age. "Appearance of age" is a doctrine that depends on a creator who is not honest.
Then you're point is wrong to begin with, because creation only appears to be as old as life. As old as God? No my friend. It only appears that way because that's Gods' will.
It's no different than angels and humans having eternal life...because God wills it to be so. That's all.
 
So your position is, God isn't truthful if scientists wrong.
My position is God would not deceive us by making a false appearance of age. "Appearance of age" is a doctrine that depends on a deceptive God.
Then you're point is wrong to begin with, because creation only appears to be as old as life.
No. It appears to be very much older. The solar system, for example, is over a billion years older than life on Earth.
It only appears that way because that's Gods' will.
Sorry, My God is truth, He's not deceptive.
 
No. It appears to be very much older. The solar system, for example, is over a billion years older than life on Earth.
I wasn't referring to life on "earth", but life Himself.
As far as human observation of life on earth goes (that is, what we actually see)...
life only comes from the living. In other words, life always existed...but not on earth.
He spoke it into existence.
 
I wasn't referring to life on "earth", but life Himself.
As far as human observation of life on earth goes (that is, what we actually see)...
We see evidence for billions of years of Earth. My God would not have faked that evidence. And he's the only God there is.

life only comes from the living.
God says otherwise. He says the Earth brought forth living things.
He spoke it into existence.
Here's how that happened...
Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done

God used nature to make life.
 
We see evidence for billions of years of Earth. My God would not have faked that evidence. And he's the only God there is.
The evidence from science is that the universe is composed of substance which can't be added to, or subtracted from. It appears to have always been here. That assumption isn't true.
God says otherwise. He says the Earth brought forth living things.

Here's how that happened...
Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done
You're point is "the living creature" brought forth after every kind.
God used nature to make life.
You have it backwards. Life created natue. Nature which brought forth after its own kind. Not changed over time.
 
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