A hypothetical about Heaven :)

[elijah23]

There's a reason why they put the punishment for non-belief at an infinite level, because it takes a lot to make a man abandon his logic & intellectual honesty.

That is an interesting point. Still, I try to behave myself just in case there is eternal punishment.

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

There's a reason why they put the punishment for non-belief at an infinite level, because it takes a lot to make a man abandon his logic & intellectual honesty.

That is an interesting point. Still, I try to behave myself just in case there is eternal punishment.

That's an argument put forward in Pascal's Wager, which postulates that it is a better "bet" to believe that God exists than not to believe, because the expected value of believing (which Pascal assessed as infinite) is always greater than the expected value of not believing.

Basically what he's saying is: Punishment for not believing if Christianity is correct = infinite Reward for not believing if it's false = nothing Punishment for believing if it's not = nothing Reward for believing if it is = infinite Therefore he postulates that it's better to believe in God.

This is entirely false for several reasons. Firstly, what about all the other religions? There are so many different religions that offer the same damnation if you're wrong, and there are millions of religions. Even if Christianity IS the correct religion you still have to get the denomination right out of around 200 or so.

If you take up his wager you should expect to go to Hell purely as a matter of probability.

There are other refutations but I won't bother unless someone challenges me.



My question to you is: If you're only believing because you wish to evade eternal torture then you better believe in Islam, Judaism, and all the other damning-if-you're-wrong religions, because the argument is just as valid for them as well, so on what basis do you base your belief?

There's simply no escaping the concise requirement for evidence, anything else results in either everything being equally as justified or nothing being justified.


PS: Just realized you said "behave yourself", not believe. My bad. Anyway, I'll leave this here just in case anyone feels it applicable to them.

I behave myself too lol, as far as I can see pretty much the only sin that I commit is Blasphemy, according to 'God's law', which doesn't really affect anyone.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Hey guys.

Just wondering, if you have a daughter or son who you really, really love (A lot of you have kids so imagine that) and they rebelled against the Christian faith; just couldn't believe it, then you went to Heaven and because of their blasphemy they go to Hell....

Could you enjoy Heaven?

What about if later on if they repented and came to know God and love Him, she was the nicest person imaginable, but because she rebelled on Earth (A rebellion she no longer feels) she is disallowed entry into Heaven, even after reform.

Could you enjoy Heaven?

Thanks.

yes, as sad and hard as that idea is on earth. Real love rejoices in the truth. We are to love God more than anyone or anything else and God is truth. If we believe Him that HE is just and merciful, that HE is in control and His will comes to pass. That in righteousness He judges, then we must believe that He always does what is right and just and good.There will be alot of people we have loved in our lives that will be in hell and we pray we are not one of them, but on that day we will all stand before God on that day and answer for ourselves, not for our children. On that day we will not be mothers or wives or fathers or friends trying to present a case for what we want for others and just how we stand there so will our children and everyone else. He does what is good and if they or us do not stand righteous before him on that day then our end is our own fault. Our joy should not depend on other people or things or curcumstances but in God alone all else springs forth in us from Him. We will have no tears there.

 

[elijah23]

My question to you is: If you're only believing because you wish to evade eternal torture then you better believe in Islam, Judaism, and all the other damning-if-you're-wrong religions, because the argument is just as valid for them as well, so on what basis do you base your belief?

There's simply no escaping the concise requirement for evidence, anything else results in either everything being equally as justified or nothing being justified.


PS: Just realized you said "behave yourself", not believe. My bad. Anyway, I'll leave this here just in case anyone feels it applicable to them.

I behave myself too lol, as far as I can see pretty much the only sin that I commit is Blasphemy, according to 'God's law', which doesn't really affect anyone.

I tend to believe heaven is a clear conscience and hell is a guilty one. I tend to believe we don’t, therefore, go to heaven or hell when we die. Instead we go to the resurrection. I’m not betting my life on it, though.

 

[Sir Pwn4lot]

yes, as sad and hard as that idea is on earth. Real love rejoices in the truth. We are to love God more than anyone or anything else and God is truth. If we believe Him that HE is just and merciful, that HE is in control and His will comes to pass. That in righteousness He judges, then we must believe that He always does what is right and just and good.There will be alot of people we have loved in our lives that will be in hell and we pray we are not one of them, but on that day we will all stand before God on that day and answer for ourselves, not for our children. On that day we will not be mothers or wives or fathers or friends trying to present a case for what we want for others and just how we stand there so will our children and everyone else. He does what is good and if they or us do not stand righteous before him on that day then our end is our own fault. Our joy should not depend on other people or things or curcumstances but in God alone all else springs forth in us from Him. We will have no tears there.

You see I find that rather evil.

I tend to believe heaven is a clear conscience and hell is a guilty one. I tend to believe we don’t, therefore, go to heaven or hell when we die. Instead we go to the resurrection. I’m not betting my life on it, though.

That's fine, although not biblically correct as far as what everyone else is saying lol.

 

[Orion]

yes, as sad and hard as that idea is on earth. Real love rejoices in the truth. We are to love God more than anyone or anything else and God is truth. If we believe Him that HE is just and merciful, that HE is in control and His will comes to pass. That in righteousness He judges, then we must believe that He always does what is right and just and good.There will be alot of people we have loved in our lives that will be in hell and we pray we are not one of them, but on that day we will all stand before God on that day and answer for ourselves, not for our children. On that day we will not be mothers or wives or fathers or friends trying to present a case for what we want for others and just how we stand there so will our children and everyone else. He does what is good and if they or us do not stand righteous before him on that day then our end is our own fault. Our joy should not depend on other people or things or curcumstances but in God alone all else springs forth in us from Him. We will have no tears there.

This post got me thinking of a hypothetical. If your son/daughter "got saved", and the next day, you heard a voice that you "knew was from god", and the voice said, "Ryes, by next week, your son/daughter will completely deny the faith he/she just accepted, so I want you to, out of love for him/her, kill him/her tonight as he/she sleeps." . . . .what would you do?

 

[LaCrum]

Hell is eternal—does that mean anyone gets sent there forever? I would think the Lord only sends people there long enough to learn a lesson. If I refuse ever to repent of my sin, I imagine I’ll spend eternity there.

I know a lot of people disagree with me.

Biblically speaking that isn’t correct, as much as we’d like to believe it.

I suggest reading the book “23 Minutes in Hellâ€.

I'm unsure as to why a system of "belief without proof" ever became "holy" in the first place. Especially when most of it goes against logic and evidence. Is there something special about a person who believes what OTHER people "said is true", when there is nothing else to go on? It is a mystery to me, to be honest.

Who’s logic and evidence? My logic and evidence tells me that it is absolutely reasonable what I believe in. There’s a lot of documented evidence of miracles, demonic exorcisms, etc, in addition to experiences from people I know. But people who are so set against not believing won’t, that’s why even the religious leaders who saw the miracles being performed didn’t believe in Jesus.

Oh, to answer your OP, . . . . IF I made it to heaven and knew one of my family members was spending an eternity of pain, . . . .IF I retained who I am today, then absolutely NO, I would not be happy with that. And I would hope that anyone would think the same way. This whole "they deserve it for not being perfect" is immoral and unethical.

Whoever said they deserve it for not being perfect? No one’s perfect, that’s what Jesus coming to die for us and take God’s wrath on himself is all about. The people who go to heaven are the ones who recognize this fact, while the people who go to Hell are the ones who refuse to submit due to pride.

"Milton was right…" The choice of every lost soul can be expressed in the words "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven." There is always something they insist on keeping even at th price of misery…†– C.S. Lewis

 

[elijah23]

I tend to believe heaven is a clear conscience and hell is a guilty one. I tend to believe we don’t, therefore, go to heaven or hell when we die. Instead we go to the resurrection. I’m not betting my life on it, though.

That's fine, although not biblically correct as far as what everyone else is saying lol.

Thanks. Matthew 25:46 might challenge my belief that heaven is a clear conscience (“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal lifeâ€). I can only argue that there will always be punishment, but no one gets sent there forever, unless they never stop sinning. I don’t know if this argument is valid or not.

 

[Orion]

Who’s logic and evidence? My logic and evidence tells me that it is absolutely reasonable what I believe in. There’s a lot of documented evidence of miracles, demonic exorcisms, etc, in addition to experiences from people I know. But people who are so set against not believing won’t, that’s why even the religious leaders who saw the miracles being performed didn’t believe in Jesus.

If you think that "talking snakes", "talking donkeys", "someone loosing his strength when his hair is cut", etc. are logical, then I think we may disagree greatly on the definition of that word, but you know, whatever.

It has NOTHING . . . ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with "someone set against believing it." If you have actual document cases that you'd like to post, then do so, please.

Whoever said they deserve it for not being perfect? No one’s perfect, that’s what Jesus coming to die for us and take God’s wrath on himself is all about. The people who go to heaven are the ones who recognize this fact, while the people who go to Hell are the ones who refuse to submit due to pride.

Jesus was wrathful? He's god, yet wrathful, so sets up a rule to cover his wrath, but no one can satisfy it but himself to satisfy his wrath. . . .

Again, it has nothing to do with "pride". It has to do with evidence that THIS god is correct [or any]. It is called, "being realistic". What is prideful is believing yourself to be 100% right, and everyone else to be 100% wrong when all you have to go on is your own belief.

 

[LaCrum]

If you think that "talking snakes", "talking donkeys", "someone loosing his strength when his hair is cut", etc. are logical, then I think we may disagree greatly on the definition of that word, but you know, whatever.

It has NOTHING . . . ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with "someone set against believing it." If you have actual document cases that you'd like to post, then do so, please.

I would define “miracle†as something that cannot be described by naturalism.

No, by “miracle†or supernatural, I’m more referring to a group people getting flattened by a gust of the Holy Spirit while praying, cancer disappearing out of someone’s body while surgery is being performed, seeing an exorcism, seeing demons, an angel in your room, a man lying on his death bed and having Jesus come to him and being healed, etc. And these are just first hand accounts from people I know.

Go google it, there are plenty of accounts from people from all corners of the world. Not to mention if you want to go into the darker side of it you can read also about people being possessed by demons. There was a case in the 1950s with video evidence of a young girl who was in a mental institute who was possessed and would have bite marks show up all over body while people were standing and watching. But investigate for yourself if this is something you truly want to know about. I could link examples but there’s no reason why you wouldn’t brush them off as something else.

Jesus was wrathful? He's god, yet wrathful, so sets up a rule to cover his wrath, but no one can satisfy it but himself to satisfy his wrath. . . .

Do you understand what the Blood Covenant is or how it works? That would make this concept a lot more clear. In short, Jesus came to bring peace between humans and God.

Again, it has nothing to do with "pride". It has to do with evidence that THIS god is correct [or any]. It is called, "being realistic". What is prideful is believing yourself to be 100% right, and everyone else to be 100% wrong when all you have to go on is your own belief.

Straw man.

In the Christian faith, it has everything to do with pride. We believe man fell from grace with God when he believed himself to “know better†then God did. Coincidentally this is the same reason Satan fell out with God too.

As far as evidence goes, the strongest evidence I’ve seen is God’s work in my life and others. I know that without Him I’m a rotten, horrible and evil person, but as soon as I allow the Holy Spirit to work in me, I become more Christ-like.

 

[Orion]

I would define “miracle†as something that cannot be described by naturalism.

So, they are instances that can only be believed by a person to whom it happens, . . . yet I'm supposed to believe based upon THEIR experience? Many of those accounts, I'm sure, have a naturalistic explaination, or could be experienced in many other religions.

Do you understand what the Blood Covenant is or how it works? That would make this concept a lot more clear. In short, Jesus came to bring peace between humans and God.

Why not just BE at peace with people without the bloodshed?? He doesn't even have any of it himself, . . .why be so obsessed with the coporeal spilling of it??

In the Christian faith, it has everything to do with pride. We believe man fell from grace with God when he believed himself to “know better†then God did. Coincidentally this is the same reason Satan fell out with God too.

As far as evidence goes, the strongest evidence I’ve seen is God’s work in my life and others. I know that without Him I’m a rotten, horrible and evil person, but as soon as I allow the Holy Spirit to work in me, I become more Christ-like.

"We believe...." Exactly. Regardless, I would never make such an assumption [knowing better than a god]. What I say, openly, is that I highly doubt that most of what is written in your canon is anything but the words and ideas of men. Having said that, various concepts are more ethically handled today than at that time, as well as scientific knowledge.

As for "how god turned around YOUR life", . . . why not accept that you saw yourself in need of changing, and did so all by yourself. Give yourself a little credit!

 

[LaCrum]

So, they are instances that can only be believed by a person to whom it happens, . . . yet I'm supposed to believe based upon THEIR experience? Many of those accounts, I'm sure, have a naturalistic explaination, or could be experienced in many other religions.

Not true. If you evaluate the source of who it is coming from, such as a person who has shown themselves to be reliable and truthful, and I believe reasonably that there is no reason that this person would falsify such information, I’m going to take them at their word. If you want to just dismiss right off hand anything that doesn’t fit into your ideas of how things work, that’s on you, not on me.

Why not just BE at peace with people without the bloodshed?? He doesn't even have any of it himself, . . .why be so obsessed with the coporeal spilling of it??

You obviously don’t understand blood covenants that were used in ancient Middle Eastern civilizations. In short, a ceremony would occur where two people would offer up everything they were and everything they had to the other person and become one with them. This would involve cutting several animals in half and walking between them to symbolize dying to your old life and then being reborn. There would also be a covenant meal consisting of bread and wine. Finally, they would cut themselves, usually on their wrist, that would heal in such a way that when people saw them they would know that that person had a covenant brother. Not only that, the covenant bound your two families and all your future children together. If you read the Old Testament, God makes several such covenants with Abraham and Israel. Israel broke the Old Covenant with God by not abiding by the rules that were laid out in it. So, God made a New Covenant with man through Jesus Christ. From reading the Old Testament, it’s clear that God could not enter into covenant with any of us because our ways are set against his and we would end up breaking it again. So, he sent his son, the perfect human, to be the representative covenant head for all of humankind. As the covenant head, Jesus could die the death that was meant for all of us as our human representative before God. He died so we could live.

"We believe...." Exactly. Regardless, I would never make such an assumption [knowing better than a god]. What I say, openly, is that I highly doubt that most of what is written in your canon is anything but the words and ideas of men. Having said that, various concepts are more ethically handled today than at that time, as well as scientific knowledge.

I haven’t made such an assumption, and I say “we believe†meaning “us as Christiansâ€. If we hold that the Bible is the word of God, why wouldn’t “we believe†what God himself has told us?

As for "how god turned around YOUR life", . . . why not accept that you saw yourself in need of changing, and did so all by yourself. Give yourself a little credit!

Because many other times I tried to live a life without God’s influence in it, and that kind of life I wanted to live without him was impossible for me to achieve. If it was so easy to be good, why isn’t anyone perfect? Seriously? Why can’t anyone live a good, perfect life devoid of any sin?

 

[Orion]

Not true. If you evaluate the source of who it is coming from, such as a person who has shown themselves to be reliable and truthful, and I believe reasonably that there is no reason that this person would falsify such information, I’m going to take them at their word. If you want to just dismiss right off hand anything that doesn’t fit into your ideas of how things work, that’s on you, not on me.

Point is, you can invoke a name, have something happen, but it is only a matter of faith that it really is what you believe it to be. Other religions have their own situations that they would give credit towards what/whom they worship.

You obviously don’t understand blood covenants that were used in ancient Middle Eastern civilizations.

I know about them. They're just barbaric and unnecessary, . . . .and any supreme being wouldn't need props in order to get things done.

 

[LaCrum]

Point is, you can invoke a name, have something happen, but it is only a matter of faith that it really is what you believe it to be. Other religions have their own situations that they would give credit towards what/whom they worship.

That's true, if an angel or demon appeared in your room while you slept, it would be up to you to decide what/who it was from. One thing I do know about demons from people who have encountered them is that they don't like this "Jesus" character, and that they curse and flee at the mention of his name.

I know about them. They're just barbaric and unnecessary, . . . .and any supreme being wouldn't need props in order to get things done.

They're the deepest commitment two people can make to each other, the bond of contracts and marriages made today are pathetic and weak in comparison, yet you call them barbaric and unnecessary. You know nothing of blood covenants.

Wow really, that's the best you can come up with? God wouldn't use props? A "true God" wouldn't do such a thing? Who's trying to box God in now? You say don't believe in God, or there's not enough "evidence" for you to decide either way, but then you go on to list all these rules by which the god you don't believe in should live by. You're saying "If there was a god, this is how he would act", yet you try and call out Christians for doing the same thing. At least we have a solid basis and conviction for our belief of who God is, what do you have?

 

[Orion]

What I have is a clear conscious that I am not in league with some being who requires death because it is angry at imperfectness, when it was created that way from the beginning, then damn and torture those who happen to see a problem with it and the immoral/unethical things done in its name or under its orders.

I also have other information, that won't be posted here, as to why I am free from what you are bound to. You can discover it too, should you choose to dig.

Have a good yule.