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A major doctrinal change after the apostles
- Thread starter John Zain
- Start date
John Zain
Member
- Sep 16, 2010
- 761
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- Thread starter
- #2
The NT churches spread the gospel and confirmed it’s truth with signs and wonders
“… and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.” (Acts 2:43, 5:12).
The NT churches were given powerful spiritual gifts for in the church and for evangelism
“There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit … the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healings, the working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues.” (1 Corinthians 12:4-11)
Paul was trained by the Lord for 17 years (Galatians 1:11--2:1), but …
“… my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom,
but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be
in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:4-5, 1 Thess. 1:5)
The apostles warned that false teachers and false doctrines were coming
“… there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies … And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words …” (2 Peter 2:1-3)
Also see 2 Corinthians 4:2, Ephesians 4:14, Ephesians 5:15-17, Colossians 2:22,
1 Timothy 1:10, 2 Timothy 3:13, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, Hebrews 13:9
The 2 major causes of the early destruction of the spiritual gifts in the Christian church:
First, we must recognize Satan and his powerful influence
Satan, our mortal enemy, is the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of the world.
“the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).
“there is no truth in him ... he is liar and the father of it” (John 8:44).
“the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4) and “the ruler of this world” (John 12:31).
No one works against God and His purposes with more fury than Satan.
He obviously attacks those who have the most spiritual power and authority.
And he obviously attacks the doctrines that have the most spiritual power involved.
Second, the “have-not” church leaders were an obvious problem
The Lord did NOT give powerful spiritual gifts to everyone in the NT churches.
These gifts were special anointings connected with the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
So, those who did NOT have these spiritual gifts were jealous of those who had them.
The “have-nots” in church authority had to find a way to protect their high positions.
They decided that pointing to 1 Corinthians 13:10 was their safest and best excuse.
And many “have-not” church members went along with this rationalization.
1 Corinthians 13:
8 But whether there are prophecies, they will fail;
whether there are tongues, they will cease;
whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect (complete) has come,
then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child;
but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as also am known.
“But when that which is perfect (complete) has come” … the NKJV footnote says:
“Most likely, this is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ and the completion of all things (see verse 12). But some have interpreted this as referring to the completion of the NT canon.”
“For now we see in a mirror dimly” … the NKJV footnote refers to Philippians 3:12 …
“Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected;
but I press on that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.”
“face to face” … the NKJV footnote refers to 1 John 3:2 …
“Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him
as He is.”
The inevitable result of this major doctrinal change
There was a steadily-decreasing belief in this baptism and its’ resulting spiritual gifts.
Unbelief, and the lack of seeking these blessings, resulted in many fewer people receiving them. So, belief in the doctrine of the “second blessing”,
and the knowledge that the spiritual gifts had not passed away,
spiraled downward ... and many hundreds of dry years followed …
“… and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.” (Acts 2:43, 5:12).
The NT churches were given powerful spiritual gifts for in the church and for evangelism
“There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit … the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healings, the working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues.” (1 Corinthians 12:4-11)
Paul was trained by the Lord for 17 years (Galatians 1:11--2:1), but …
“… my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom,
but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be
in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:4-5, 1 Thess. 1:5)
The apostles warned that false teachers and false doctrines were coming
“… there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies … And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words …” (2 Peter 2:1-3)
Also see 2 Corinthians 4:2, Ephesians 4:14, Ephesians 5:15-17, Colossians 2:22,
1 Timothy 1:10, 2 Timothy 3:13, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, Hebrews 13:9
The 2 major causes of the early destruction of the spiritual gifts in the Christian church:
First, we must recognize Satan and his powerful influence
Satan, our mortal enemy, is the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of the world.
“the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).
“there is no truth in him ... he is liar and the father of it” (John 8:44).
“the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4) and “the ruler of this world” (John 12:31).
No one works against God and His purposes with more fury than Satan.
He obviously attacks those who have the most spiritual power and authority.
And he obviously attacks the doctrines that have the most spiritual power involved.
Second, the “have-not” church leaders were an obvious problem
The Lord did NOT give powerful spiritual gifts to everyone in the NT churches.
These gifts were special anointings connected with the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
So, those who did NOT have these spiritual gifts were jealous of those who had them.
The “have-nots” in church authority had to find a way to protect their high positions.
They decided that pointing to 1 Corinthians 13:10 was their safest and best excuse.
And many “have-not” church members went along with this rationalization.
1 Corinthians 13:
8 But whether there are prophecies, they will fail;
whether there are tongues, they will cease;
whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect (complete) has come,
then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child;
but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as also am known.
“But when that which is perfect (complete) has come” … the NKJV footnote says:
“Most likely, this is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ and the completion of all things (see verse 12). But some have interpreted this as referring to the completion of the NT canon.”
“For now we see in a mirror dimly” … the NKJV footnote refers to Philippians 3:12 …
“Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected;
but I press on that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.”
“face to face” … the NKJV footnote refers to 1 John 3:2 …
“Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him
as He is.”
The inevitable result of this major doctrinal change
There was a steadily-decreasing belief in this baptism and its’ resulting spiritual gifts.
Unbelief, and the lack of seeking these blessings, resulted in many fewer people receiving them. So, belief in the doctrine of the “second blessing”,
and the knowledge that the spiritual gifts had not passed away,
spiraled downward ... and many hundreds of dry years followed …
Last edited by a moderator:
Sinthesis
Member
- Feb 23, 2009
- 5,188
- 264
Peter seems to disagree with your viewpoint. The 'last days' of Joel's prophecy belong to Peter's generation.
Act 2:14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15 - For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 - But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 - And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 - And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 - And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 - The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 - And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Act 2:15 - For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 - But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 - And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 - And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 - And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 - The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 - And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Sinthesis
Member
- Feb 23, 2009
- 5,188
- 264
You have some assertions here, but do you actually have any historical record to confirm or deny?
John Zain
Member
- Sep 16, 2010
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- Thread starter
- #7
Dry churches are those where the Holy Spirit is not really welcome.
Dry churches are those where men insist on being in control of the services instead of God.
Dry churches are those where the 9 gifts of the Spirit are not in operation (see 1 Cor 12).
Anyone not understand now?
scripture states that the Holy Spirit is ONLY in the Body of Christ. There is ONLY one Body of Christ, so all these other churches obviously do not have the Holy Spirit.
Also man does not control where the Holy Spirit resides. It is His function to preserve Christ's Body and to preserve the revelation entrusted to it.
Again, in Christ's Church man is not in control. Christ is the Head of His Church, man does not control it. So, obviously if it is not Christ's Church, man is in control.
The Holy Spirit gives gifts to all. He does not give all gifts to all.
E
Elijah674
Guest
________
Matt. 18 is the WORD of Christ God. Personally I see that Christ did leave the Church in control. (It required OBEDIENCE) And yes, not one man. And also I find that that Church will not allow open false doctrines or sinners to be in membership with out repentence. And also Rev. 2:5 + othere verses document that if any fold (candlestick) will not abide by Christ's teachings, they theirself will be replaced. As was the case with old Israel. (Matt. 23:38.)
Matt. 18
[15] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
[16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
[17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
[18] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
--Elijah
John Zain
Member
- Sep 16, 2010
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From an Administrator in a Christian Forum …
I was once a Cessationist and I BATTLED AGAINST this topic... all I was doing was battling against God. I surrendered... finally surrendered and a lot of what I wrote above is what He showed me and pointed out to me. I ignored and refused to accept all those scriptures and events I mention in this post while I was in bondage to the Cessationist doctrine(s). All those chapters might as well been removed from all the Bible's I had. When I surrendered, first seeing, and then understanding, and then accepted the truth of those scriptures followed. Until I threw away that man-made Cessationist doctrine... what God did in my heart "was not possible." The "cliche" about having "one's eye's opened"... well... when eyes ARE opened to the truth... they can't be closed again. My eyes were not opened and that cessationist doctrine ENSURED that they stayed closed to the truth of God's Word. Thus the very HARD period of surrender began some years ago.
I presume that is a testimonial, but that does not address the OP you made.
You stated that a major doctrinal change was made after the apostles. This is an assertion. Where is the evidence of this assertion? What doctrine was changed, and what was it changed to?
dadof10
Member
- Nov 5, 2006
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I'm with Cassian. I don't see any proof of any change in DOCTRINE. What "dry years" and what does dryness have to do with doctrinal change? If your opinion is that the early Church was "dry", fine. That's your opinion, but you are stating a historical fact that there was a major doctrinal change. That charge demands proof. Do you have any?
John Zain
Member
- Sep 16, 2010
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- Thread starter
- #13
There was a doctrinal change when the RC and Orthodox churches no longer had any interest
in the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the 9 spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12).
This kind of doctrinal change results in dryness.
If you're not seeing some of these 9 spiritual gifts in operation in your church,
you're sitting in a spiritually dry church.
If you're not seeing some of these 9 spiritual gifts in operation in your life,
you're living a spiritually dry life.
Probably God's greatest evangelist in the last 100 years, Smith Wigglesworth,
had the gifts of great faith, healing, miracles, etc.
He said, "If you don't have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, you're living in a weak and impoverished condition!"
I think you have a lot of uninformed assertions here.
First, the Othodox Church has the Holy Spirit, every baptisee receives the gift of the Holy Spirit in Chrismation.
The Church has never separated the forms of baptism but have one baptism that accomplishes all that is needed and according to scripture. John 5:3.
Secondly, these are not doctrines anyway. They are practices as prescribed by scripture.
In reference to your list of 9 spiritual gifts you are also confused. The Gifts of the Spirit are not doctrinal statments but are gifts given by the Holy Spirit to believers. Beleivers do not get all the gifts, they are meted out to each's ability and function.
There were also other gifts, such as speaking in tongues, miracles of healings, and raising from the dead, which Paul had already warned in I Cor 13 that they would cease. They were used to authentic the authority of the early Church. Jesus used them for the same purpose. ONce the Church was established these were no longer needed thus not provided by the Holy Spirit in the same measure as in the beginning.
Again, these are not doctrines. The Church does not have contral over these gifts, surely not man. You are really whistling dixie here in claiming these are doctrines and that the Church has control over them.
I might also add that the special gifts were not even meant for believers, but for those that did not believe. As I mentioned above, they authentic authority, not for believers but for those to whom the Church is evangelizing.
ONe will always find false prophets, but that is why we as believers must always test the spirits. Even the devil comes as light.
smaller
Member
- Oct 23, 2003
- 12,380
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There is only ONE miracle remaining for any believer to do and practice.
To love each other as much as we love our'selves.'
If and when we see that, it's a...
MIRACLE.
s
dadof10
Member
- Nov 5, 2006
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Simply repeating an assertion is not proof. Could you please provide historical evidence that the early Church (or RC/Orthodox) "no longer had any interest in the 9 spiritual gifts"?
Again, what does your assumption that "dryness"="not seeing some of these 9 spiritual gifts in operation" have to do with doctrinal change? Just because you, personally NEED to see these spiritual "gifts", doesn't have anything to do with whether there was a change in the early Church.
Well, that proves it then...
dadof10
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- Nov 5, 2006
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And a rare one, at that...
smaller
Member
- Oct 23, 2003
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Yeah, if we ever get that one downpat as a 'real' practice we may see even more interesting things?
In the end though:
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
so you say, but you have given no evidence of your assertions. You keep making them and no substantive explanation.
At this point you have not stated any truth that I could reject. I have made comments, asking for explanation but none seems forthcoming.