A major doctrinal change after the apostles

[Stan53]

Peter seems to disagree with your viewpoint. The 'last days' of Joel's prophecy belong to Peter's generation.

Act 2:14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15 - For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 - But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 - And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 - And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 - And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 - The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 - And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
​

Peter was relating to the Jews what they could understand. Just like further on in this scripture, he says;

“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you, at the hands of those outside the law, executed by nailing him to a cross; 24 whom God raised up, loosing the pangs of death, as it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25 For David says regarding him, ‘I foresaw the Lord before me always, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken; 26 on account of this my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; moreover my flesh also will dwell in hope. 27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or allow your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of joy with your presence.’ 29 My brothers, I can speak to you confidently about the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God promised him with an oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
​

It's important to see the context Peter is speaking in. Jesus was NOT always before David and the Apostles speaking in tongues was NOT the only time this was going to happen.

 

[John Zain]

so you say, but you have given no evidence of your assertions.
You keep making them and no substantive explanation.
At this point you have not stated any truth that I could reject.
I have made comments, asking for explanation but none seems forthcoming.

The evidence, truth, and explanation you desire is obvious
for you, and all, to see ... just visit your church.
And accompany your brothers, if they evangelize your town or in foreign lands.

 

[Cassian]

The evidence, truth, and explanation you desire is obvious
for you, and all, to see ... just visit your church.
And accompany your brothers, if they evangelize your town or in foreign lands.

If it was obvious I would not ask. I don't even know what you think should be obvious.
So far, you have given no evidence of your assertions. You simply reiterate them and assume the evidence. Being the third time I asked, I presume you have none.

 

[John Zain]

From an Administrator in a non-denominational Christian Forum …

I was once a Cessationist and I BATTLED AGAINST this topic... all I was doing was battling against God.
I surrendered... finally surrendered and a lot of what I wrote above is what He showed me and pointed out to me. I ignored and refused to accept all those scriptures and events I mention in this post while I was in bondage to the Cessationist doctrine(s). All those chapters might as well been removed from all the Bible's I had. When I surrendered, first seeing, and then understanding, and then accepted the truth of those scriptures followed. Until I threw away that man-made Cessationist doctrine... what God did in my heart "was not possible."The "cliche" about having "one's eye's opened"... well... when eyes ARE opened to the truth... they can't be closed again. My eyes were not opened and that cessationist doctrine ENSURED that they stayed closed to the truth of God's Word. Thus the very HARD period of surrender began some years ago.

I posted:
Almost everyone turns a blind eye to what God has been doing in the way of signs/wonders/miracles.
But, at least they refrain from attributing it all to Satan.

And he responded to me:
I've raised this fact in many other threads. People don't understand if they CAN'T call a s/w/m of satan...
they need to REALLY look into their heart and ask God... WHY not? This is one of the MAIN elements in God leading me OUT of the cessationist bondage until the day I was finally free of it. Then I was truly able to "see" what was false (of satan), fake (of man), and what was real (of God).

And he responded to someone:
What about the TRUE s/w/m of God that are happening out there in the world... can you address THEM at all? Or are your ONLY gonna discuss the false/fake out there in the world and thus... IGNORE the true s/w/m and REFUSE to discuss the true s/w/m of God happening today. Tell me... with all the examples you gave above... if you witnessed any, would you immediately call the s/w/m accomplished in your presence... OF the devil? Think about that question seriously HARD, it is a very serious question.

And he responded to someone else:
Are you going to discuss the true s/w/m that God is doing today? Because if you are, then we will BE ABLE to discuss the scrip-tures. See here is the problem... if you will not acknowledge that God is doing s/w/m today, then to discuss those scriptures in accordance with what God is doing today, is impossible. I made it clear... there ARE false and fake s/w/m today done by the devil (false) and by man (fake). I can discuss about them and also discuss all the scriptures. However, there are TRUE s/w/m today done by God... if you can discuss these s/w/m then it will be possible to discuss all those scriptures in accordance with the truth of the Bible. If you will NOT aknowledge God continues to allow s/w/m... then the only thing you will discuss is the doctrine you have chosen to believe in and what that doctrine means and what "its" truth is. This means it will be impossible to discuss the truth of the scriptures with you in relation with what God continues to do on a miraculous level today. So let me know what you honestly plan to do.

Another response:
NO... the point is this. If you witness a "supernatural" miracle, would you AUTOMATICALLY call the miracle "OF" satan as the source? If you would not or CANNOT... then what value is the doctrine you believe?
So the question is VERY straight forward... would you call ANY supernatural miracle today, "of satan"?
If you would not or cannot, then... WHY not?

A second testimony from the Administrator
I've given testimony all throughout this forum of people being healed, the testimony is ignored.
Just 2 months ago or a person came to the altar who was wearing an ankle brace. Limping they came forward. While I prayed I was told by God to anoint the person's ankle and pray for healing. They left and I immediately continued to pray over others at the altar. Later I saw this person had removed the brace and was not limping... dude, I was crying once I saw that and praised God. I witnessed this also when others prayed over injured people (this is the past 2 years), one threw their cane and the other walked away from their walker, then ran around the church, they left carrying the folded up walker on their shoulder because they wanted to not only give testimony of their healing but also show the "proof". That cane, lay on the altar till the church clean up crew came on their Thursday and asked what to do with the cane... they were told to just toss it out with the rest of the trash. As a matter of fact, that person who had the problem since childhood was playing basketball with their children, running around the court all the week after God healed them.

 

[JLB]

I think you have a lot of uninformed assertions here.
First, the Othodox Church has the Holy Spirit, every baptisee receives the gift of the Holy Spirit in Chrismation.

The Church has never separated the forms of baptism but have one baptism that accomplishes all that is needed and according to scripture. John 5:3.

Secondly, these are not doctrines anyway. They are practices as prescribed by scripture.

In reference to your list of 9 spiritual gifts you are also confused. The Gifts of the Spirit are not doctrinal statments but are gifts given by the Holy Spirit to believers. Beleivers do not get all the gifts, they are meted out to each's ability and function.

There were also other gifts, such as speaking in tongues, miracles of healings, and raising from the dead, which Paul had already warned in I Cor 13 that they would cease. They were used to authentic the authority of the early Church. Jesus used them for the same purpose. ONce the Church was established these were no longer needed thus not provided by the Holy Spirit in the same measure as in the beginning.

Again, these are not doctrines. The Church does not have contral over these gifts, surely not man. You are really whistling dixie here in claiming these are doctrines and that the Church has control over them.

I might also add that the special gifts were not even meant for believers, but for those that did not believe. As I mentioned above, they authentic authority, not for believers but for those to whom the Church is evangelizing.

ONe will always find false prophets, but that is why we as believers must always test the spirits. Even the devil comes as light.

What does John 5:3 have to do with Baptism?

3 In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water.


JLB

 

[rrowell]

You have no idea what you're talking about.
You're rejecting simple common sense truth.
And IMO, you're not open to learning the Truth about these things.

I believe you have power I don't have, and I probably never will, I believe you believe something so much you have the ability to put yourself into some hypnotic state and that you think is is the spirit working in you, but in fact it is not scriptural and does not happen today...

As another poster stated, it was done to evangelize before the bible was written (while it was being written) and since it has been written, as the previous poster said and as Paul did teach, it would end with the Apostolic age...

 

[reba]

To all posting in this thread keep it nice!

 

[rrowell]

To all posting in this thread keep it nice!

If it was to my post this was directed, I pray nobody took this offensive, it was not meant to be, it was from my heart... I believe people believe this way so much it actually overcomes them...

It has to be, because I can find nothing scriptural in it...

It was in no way meant to be demeaning...

 

[Cassian]

What does John 5:3 have to do with Baptism?

3 In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water.


JLB

My mistake, It should be inverted, John 3:5.

 

[felix]

There was a doctrinal change when the RC and Orthodox churches no longer had any interest
in the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the 9 spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12).

This kind of doctrinal change results in dryness.

If you're not seeing some of these 9 spiritual gifts in operation in your church,
you're sitting in a spiritually dry church.

If you're not seeing some of these 9 spiritual gifts in operation in your life,
you're living a spiritually dry life.

You cannot dictate on how Holy Spirit must distribute or give Spiritual gifts.

(1Cor 12:7-11) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit [of all:] for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another [different] kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Probably God's greatest evangelist in the last 100 years, Smith Wigglesworth,
had the gifts of great faith, healing, miracles, etc.
He said, "If you don't have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, you're living in a weak and impoverished condition!"

How is baptism of Holy Spirit related to the gifts He gives? Is there a rule that everyone who is baptized by Holy Spirit must atleast receive a spiritual gift? Can you show me a verse for it?

It looks like man dictating God's will.

 

[John Zain]

You cannot dictate on how Holy Spirit must distribute or give Spiritual gifts.
How is baptism of Holy Spirit related to the gifts He gives?
Is there a rule that everyone who is baptized by Holy Spirit must at least receive a spiritual gift? Can you show me a verse for it?
It looks like man dictating God's will.

I appreciate your points. No, I don't have verses for all of these things.
And I do try hard to not put God in a box.

IMO, ALL of the leaders of the NT churches had this baptism.
And these are the ones whom the NT talks about having these 9 gifts.

Also, experience today does show that what I've said is more than generally correct.
Some people without this baptism think they have one of these 9 gifts,
but the gift is NOT nearly as powerful as it would be with this baptism.

 

[felix]

I appreciate your points. No, I don't have verses for all of these things.
And I do try hard to not put God in a box.

If you don't have verses for all those, then it is not true according to Scripture.

No one is putting God in a box. Don't try to deceive yourself by saying God has power to lie too with the illustration of a box. If God had spoken through His prophets and apostles one thing He is not a liar to do another.

IMO, ALL of the leaders of the NT churches had this baptism.
And these are the ones whom the NT talks about having these 9 gifts.

Also, experience today does show that what I've said is more than generally correct.
Some people without this baptism think they have one of these 9 gifts,
but the gift is NOT nearly as powerful as it would be with this baptism.

I agree with this statement "Some people without this baptism think they have one of these 9 gifts". Most commonly, people fake the least of these gifts because it is easy to fake it.

(1Cor 12:28-31) And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. [Are] all apostles? [Are] all prophets? [Are] all teachers? [Are] all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

When I was in a church where everyone was speaking in tongues, I prayed so earnestly that I need to speak in tongues. I immediately felt in my heart as if someone speaking to me in this manner:
Why do you need tongues? Even I, filled with Holy Spirit never spoke in tongues!
It was only then I realized, tongues are for a sign to unbelievers (1Cor 14:22) and it is true I had never worshiped God among unbelievers or done street preaching or worship.

God will give gifts as He wills to equip the believer to do His work.

 

[Tri Unity]

Could you please provide historical evidence that the early Church (or RC/Orthodox) "no longer had any interest in the 9 spiritual gifts"?

My comment is to compliment what you said. The church didn't seem to cease in miracles, they were just very few in number. Emperor Marcus Aurelius (2nd century - Gladiator fame with actor Russel Crowe) wrote about how the Christians prayed for him and affected a lightning storm which won him the war. Gregory Thaumaturgus (the miracle worker - 3rd century) was said to have changed the flow of the current in the major river after prayer. Theophilus the Indian (4th century) apparently raised the dead and healed Emperor Constantius' wife. Miracles seemed to be sporadic by the time of Nicaea, but still existing.

 

[dadof10]

My comment is to compliment what you said. The church didn't seem to cease in miracles, they were just very few in number. Emperor Marcus Aurelius (2nd century - Gladiator fame with actor Russel Crowe) wrote about how the Christians prayed for him and affected a lightning storm which won him the war. Gregory Thaumaturgus (the miracle worker - 3rd century) was said to have changed the flow of the current in the major river after prayer. Theophilus the Indian (4th century) apparently raised the dead and healed Emperor Constantius' wife. Miracles seemed to be sporadic by the time of Nicaea, but still existing.

I think miracles were way more frequent in Apostolic times as a witness to the Truth of the fledgling Church. I also think that there were far more miracles within the early Church than were recorded. We have the Gospels and Letters, which cover, historically, around 100 years. If the only miracles that actually happened within the Church were the ones recorded, that wouldn't be an overwhelming amount comparatively. After the death of John, the amount of miracles could have continued, or declined immediately. We really don't know.

The point is, that the author of the OP is stating (without any evidence) that the early Church PURPOSELY STOPPED SEEKING the "nine gifts". This contention is patently absurd.

 

[Tri Unity]

This contention is patently absurd.

Absurd is my middle name. It is difficult to know how to deal with "absurdity". I have believed so many absurd things over the years... but eventually, through the mercy of God, I have been brought to my senses on some of those things. How do you help someone though? I don't know. Even though we have been there ourselves, the medicine is not one size fits all. Some ideas are more absurd than others. It will depend on how much the absurdity displeases us. Our reactions show our displeasure. Sometimes, as in my case, the cure can be worse than the symptom. The treatment to cure blindness is when God refines us as in a fire; but many of us refuse the fire of God. We cannot force people to be humble or to 'open their eyes'. God did not force us. We are all on a learning journey; it's just that some got off the journey 5 minutes into the ride, and others are still riding that wild bull.

 

[dadof10]

Absurd is my middle name. It is difficult to know how to deal with "absurdity". I have believed so many absurd things over the years... but eventually, through the mercy of God, I have been brought to my senses on some of those things. How do you help someone though? I don't know. Even though we have been there ourselves, the medicine is not one size fits all. Some ideas are more absurd than others. It will depend on how much the absurdity displeases us. Our reactions show our displeasure. Sometimes, as in my case, the cure can be worse than the symptom. The treatment to cure blindness is when God refines us as in a fire; but many of us refuse the fire of God. We cannot force people to be humble or to 'open their eyes'. God did not force us. We are all on a learning journey; it's just that some got off the journey 5 minutes into the ride, and others are still riding that wild bull.

Absurdity, in this case, is making an historical point without historical evidence.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[John Zain]

Absurdity, in this case, is making an historical point without historical evidence.

Would someone please tell this guy what IMO means. Thanks.
IMO, dem 10 need lots of prayer.

 

[reba]

We are not getting rude here are we? You guys play nice!

That is to all not just the last poster.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

You believe nobody is saved?

According to Jesus there are very few people who find out what the gate into God's kingdom is. There are also very few people at this time who are saved even tho there is a church building of some sort on the corner of every block and several more between those.

 

[Free]

Every message of salvation that does not teach that Jesus' crucifixion is the offense of first degree murder causing death by bloodshed and is the sin that God holds you accoutable to repent of is a false message of salvation. There is no contemporary church on the face of the earth today that does not teach the Galatain error in one form or another for salvation. And no gifts of God's spirit will be given to anyone who teaches or believes this error.

Please show where in the Bible this is mentioned.