[_ Old Earth _] A number reasons why I find Evolution impossible to believe!

[Sparkey]

Moderator: Let's agree to move our comments toward the subject and distanced ourselves from comments directed "at the man". Follow the rule about ad hominem fallacy. Pay careful attention to the use of "you" and/or "your" and edit yourself. It saves me the trouble.

 

[Barbarian]

We can all do better, I suppose. I will try to keep that in mind.

 

[Vaccine]

Hi all! I have often wondered about Ken Ham asserting no death before Adam. I believe something had to die since just about everything lives off organic matter. That is another conundrum for origin of life though, since life eats life. I think what was lost in the fall was a relationship with Christ, death of humans was the byproduct. Everything outside the garden of eden didn't have a relationship with Christ, so in my mind would not have the benefits of eternal life. I think Ken Ham brought up death before Adam just as another line of reasoning against millions of years. I agree with him to the extent, no death for humans in the garden of eden. Now, I wonder how long Adam was in the garden, a day with the Lord is a thousand years..

 

[Barbarian]

Hi all! I have often wondered about Ken Ham asserting no death before Adam. I believe something had to die since just about everything lives off organic matter. That is another conundrum for origin of life though, since life eats life. I think what was lost in the fall was a relationship with Christ, death of humans was the byproduct.

But what sort of death? God told Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree. And yet Adam lives on physically for many years thereafter. So it's not the death of the body that God was talking about.

Everything outside the garden of eden didn't have a relationship with Christ, so in my mind would not have the benefits of eternal life. I think Ken Ham brought up death before Adam just as another line of reasoning against millions of years. I agree with him to the extent, no death for humans in the garden of eden. Now, I wonder how long Adam was in the garden, a day with the Lord is a thousand years..

I never understood why people rebel against millions of years. It's not in any way a rejection of anything Biblical.

 

[Free Christian]

I can see what you mean there Vaccine. Natural death with the animals or plants I have no problem with but disease I believe came after the fall. I cant, me, see the suffering from disease and other life shortening agents being part of what God saw and related to us in His Word as good. Barbarian, but Adam did die eventually, we are not told when he would die but that he would. On Millions of years. From creation, the six days, amongst which Adam was created. Adam was not created millions of years ago. The world and all existence was made in that same 6 day time frame, including Adam. Its clearly told to us in Genesis. So saying that not believing in millions of years is rebelling or rejecting anything Biblical to me is the wrong way around. Adhering to millions of years is rejecting what is Biblical.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I can see what you mean there Vaccine. Natural death with the animals or plants I have no problem with but disease I believe came after the fall. I cant, me, see the suffering from disease and other life shortening agents being part of what God saw and related to us in His Word as good.

Well, it would have been interesting if the people who wrote Genesis wrote something like, "After the Fall, God created other creatures that He didn't create in the first Six Days. These creatures are viruses."

When you really think about it, it makes perfect sense and fits perfectly with reality if you allow the thought that the Book of Genesis was created by ancient men who didn't have microscopes. Is the Book of Genesis the Perfect Word of the Creator of the Universe? I think not. The world around me and everything that I know screams "Not!"

 

[Free Christian]

Hello VSC. Sorry if I seem a bit lost here, but I thought you were a Bible believing Christian? I mean, believed in the Bible but differ from others interpretation of it. I may be not taking it all in properly so if I am not then my apologies. Is it just Genesis you don't believe is the Word of God or the Bible in general? What I mean is do you see it as just a history flawed book maybe? I am in no way having a shot at you in asking its just that your comment on Genesis and who wrote it contradicts the Bible itself where it says that all scripture is inspired by God.
For all we know viruses had slightly different functions before the fall and just like the actions in life of other creatures changed after it, the fall, from non predatory to predatory so may have the function and actions of those! We call them viruses and attach disease and sickness to them but back then, before the fall...I believe they were just harmless and performed entirely different functions! That's how I see it.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Hello VSC. Sorry if I seem a bit lost here, but I thought you were a Bible believing Christian? I mean, believed in the Bible but differ from others interpretation of it. I may be not taking it all in properly so if I am not then my apologies. Is it just Genesis you don't believe is the Word of God or the Bible in general?

I used to believe that the Bible was true, but not anymore. My views didn't change overnight, but gradually.

What I mean is do you see it as just a history flawed book maybe?

Yes. I accept the Documentary Hypothesis. The Bible is actually a treasure because when you're dealing with ancient history, all you have to go on to really look into the minds of people back then is their writings combined with archaeology and other stuff.

I am in no way having a shot at you in asking its just that your comment on Genesis and who wrote it contradicts the Bible itself where it says that all scripture is inspired by God.

I didn't take it in a negative way. You are always polite when addressing me and others. I've noticed this. You are just honestly asking questions to clarify the position of the person that you are responding to. That's all anyone can ask for.

For all we know viruses had slightly different functions before the fall and just like the actions in life of other creatures changed after it, the fall, from non predatory to predatory so may have the function and actions of those! We call them viruses and attach disease and sickness to them but back then, before the fall...I believe they were just harmless and performed entirely different functions! That's how I see it.

I see it as overwhelmingly unfair, if it was true. One believer might say, "Well, God's ways are beyond our ways." Another might say, "God is mysterious." The problem with unsatisfying answers like these is that anyone of any type of faith can use them to defend their belief in their God or gods, no matter which God or gods they happen to believe in.

 

[Free Christian]

HI again VSC. Fair enough, I see where you are coming from now. I also heard another idea that with viruses and so on that it was not them which changed after the fall that it was ours and other creatures response to them which changed. Either way, I wish for you and others the same as I always do for myself, that God leads us into His glorious Truth.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I also heard another idea that with viruses and so on that it was not them which changed after the fall that it was ours and other creatures response to them which changed.

You heard another idea? Please allow me to easily debunk this idea.


So, it was not the viruses that changed after "The Fall". They behaved pretty much as they do now. They attack us. They are evil creatures who attack us, and have always been evil creatures who attack us. After "The Fall", it is only our response to these attackers that has weakened. Who is responsible for the existence of these attackers? You and I? Because of "The Fall"?

This weak attempt at an idea that you have heard has been successfully shot down.


Next!!!

 

[Free Christian]

Hi VSC have a look here http://creation.com/did-god-make-pathogenic-viruses

 

[Barbarian]

Viruses reproduce by destroying cells. It's true that many organisms have adapted to viruses, and don't die when infected. They just give up some cells over time.

But some of them cause the most horrible and painful illnesses and they often kill. Not just humans. All sorts of animals as well. So I can believe that nature is the best way, or I can believe He chose to punish his innocent creatures for the sin of a human.

That isn't the sort of God who died on the Cross to save us.

Just saying.

 

[Vaccine]

Hi VSC have a look here http://creation.com/did-god-make-pathogenic-viruses

[MENTION=142]Free[/MENTION]christian Thanks for the link, it was a good read. The article mentioned pathogens were something gone wrong with viruses and bacteria. I aslo think it was the fall that brought some suffering to the rest of God's creation. I've always thought animal sacrifice was a reminder our sin cost something. That even if it only slightly affected us, or not at all, our sin has an impact on the order or nature of things. Another thing I thought of is how aquatic life has traits like regeneration in starfish, no aging process after a certain point in turtles and lobsters, I remember reeading about fishermen finding a whale that had a harpoon in it that was from the 1700's. It seems to me land animals suffered more from the fall than those in the ocean. If it were like fire forensics, it seems to me pathogens spread from mammals to the rest of nature. I don't have any evidence, all of this is just my opinon.
[MENTION=30546]Barbarian[/MENTION] To me it doesn't necessarily that 1 day, but was referring to an era as "in the day of George Washington". As though that day was the day the dying process would begin. I don't know, but if Adam died spiritually, doesn't that mean there was no hope for him?
I used to accept millions of years since the bible doesn't specifically say, but the more I examine it I agree with freecristian, millions of years is rejecting a biblical time frame.

 

[Sparkey]

I've closed this thread for moderator review.

 

[Barbarian]

To me it doesn't necessarily that 1 day, but was referring to an era as "in the day of George Washington".

It's possible that "yom" (which sometimes means "day") could have been used figuratively in Genesis, but it doesn't fit very well with this one, since it refers to a specific act. And if you use it that way, then the creation week could be merely figurative. Which it probably was.

As though that day was the day the dying process would begin.

That would be an addition to the text. Generally, not a good idea.

I don't know, but if Adam died spiritually, doesn't that mean there was no hope for him?

Unless God rescued him. That's what Christ came here to do.

I used to accept millions of years since the bible doesn't specifically say, but the more I examine it I agree with freecristian, millions of years is rejecting a biblical time frame.

There isn't a Biblical time frame. It's symbolic, not a literal history. A creation just a few thousand years old, is a very modern re-interpretation. Even evangelicals just a hundred years ago, generally held to the traditional old Earth concept.

 

[Asyncritus]

Viruses reproduce by destroying cells. It's true that many organisms have adapted to viruses, and don't die when infected. They just give up some cells over time.

But some of them cause the most horrible and painful illnesses and they often kill. Not just humans. All sorts of animals as well. So I can believe that nature is the best way, or I can believe He chose to punish his innocent creatures for the sin of a human.

That isn't the sort of God who died on the Cross to save us.

Just saying.

Your theology, like your science, is suspect. God did not die on any cross. His Son did.

 

[Barbarian]

For a Christian, Jesus was God as fully and wholly as the Father or the Holy Spirit. And you've learned a lot of science from me, over the months you've been here. Might be good to read the Bible and learn about God as well.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

I consider myself a man of science and a man of fossils in particular. As this thread is a few months old and the back and forths already established, I'd like to invite the OP to ask me questions about evolution in the fossil record and questions about the fossil record.

 

[Barbarian]

Welcome. Always good to have a trained paleontologist on board. What's your take on the nature of Australopithecine anatomy, and what it says about their bipedalism? Do you think ours is just an improvement, or is it a significant departure from the Australopithecine condition?

 

[Narwhalist]

TheBeardedDude. I've always loved Paleontology. There was a time in my life when I wanted to study the fossil record, but then life happened. Good to have you on board.