a question about Jesus???

[follower of Christ]

rrtr, if you are not going to accept what the law, the prophets, and the apostles have to say regarding Christ, you will not accept any "proof" either.

Exactly...

.

 

[Free]

Do you post here under any other names ?

Nope.

 

[Free]

I respect your views handy, but what I meant by opinions was merely to try and stay neutral in this conversation as my beliefs usually stir up discord. This debate has been going on for 1700 years or more so I would have to think opinion does come into play a bit. Can I ask for clarification what you meant by the sentence I have highlighted?

Technically, the debate ended 1700 years ago. The debate only went on for 300 or so years.

 

[rrtr]

some people here they think i don't believe in Jesus or he is not massiah (Christ)...i wanna make it clear now... i believe in Jesus Christ, as i said he is the mightest messenger in Islam, in Islam rules if you don't believe in Jesus you are not muslim...we love him sososo much we do not make fun of him as some cartoons or movies do in the western world... here are some verses about Jesus in Quran

"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35).

"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5:75).

And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).[/b][/b]

 

[Brother Lionel]

rrtr,
Could you provide scripture showing where Jesus worshipped God?

 

[rrtr]

ok my friend... so if you are Christian i'm sure that you know the lord's prayer.
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. for ever and ever. Amen

so this is Jesus prayer... he asked GOD for forgiveness so this is a part of worship coz we all ask for forgiveness... so if he is GOD why would he ask for forgiveness...he said hallowed be thy name not my name not our name...he said again thy will be done...he said give us today our daily bread... so he asked for bread for himself too...he said deliver us from evil... this includes himself too...he said For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. for ever and ever it means For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours not ours not mine... so that's the lord's prayer and praying is a part of worshiping GOD...

If Jesus was GOD why would he pray to GOD...

 

[handy]

I think you misunderstand the what the Holy Bible teaches regarding this prayer, Jesus isn't petitioning upon His own behalf with this prayer, He is teaching us how to pray.

Here is what Jesus said, immediately before teaching the Lord's prayer:

5"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. Pray then in this way... Matthew 6:5-8

The emphasis being that the prayer is for believers. A prayer Jesus taught to His believers, not a prayer upon His own behalf. Not that Jesus did not pray to the Father, naturally He did so. However, Jesus did not under any circumstances ask for forgiveness of sin, for there was never sin within Jesus. There was never sin within Jesus, because He is God and God cannot sin.

 

[Brother Lionel]

That is correct handy.

Jesus was merely teaching His followers how to pray. Do you have any other scripture which show that Jesus worshipped God the Father? And what is your motive behind the question? Are you attempting to prove that Jesus was not God? Becuase if you are, then please inform me as to how are we to receive eternal life if Jesus is not God our Savior?

 

[Physicist]

but my friend Jesus has never said i am GOD and has never said worship me... he said in Gospel of Jhon chapter 5 verse 30 " By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."
John 14:28 "Father is greater than I" and many many verses...ect but there is no verse that Jesus said i am GOD or worship me...because if he is GOD you would find in all the bibles I AM GOD clear... but he said by myself i can do nothing and again for i seek not to please myself but who sent me... so that's clear that he is not GOD because if he is he would say by myself i can do everything because i am GOD i am the one who creates you right...

Jesus said and did many things that placed Him in the position of almighty God. Only God can do as Jesus did here on earth. Jesus Himself did in fact refer to Himself as God, as the I am that existed before Abraham. Also in Revelations Jesus refers to Himself as the alpha the omega and the almighty. Some people toss Revelations away. People who hate the truth.

I would say a more accurate statement would be that different NT author's describe Jesus differently. The Mark gospel has him as a man transformed by the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:10) into the Son of God but definitely the lesser to YHWH ( Mark 10:18). Paul and John paint a more Gnostic Jesus, identified as the Word of God( John 1:14). The Trinity concept came later as the Catholic answer to the Docetists.

I guess you pick your NT author and accept his version of Jesus.

 

[follower of Christ]

some people here they think i don't believe in Jesus or he is not massiah (Christ)...i wanna make it clear now... i believe in Jesus Christ, as i said he is the mightest messenger in Islam, in Islam rules if you don't believe in Jesus you are not muslim...we love him sososo much we do not make fun of him as some cartoons or movies do in the western world... here are some verses about Jesus in Quran

Yeah....I figured there was something up here...

/

 

[follower of Christ]

The Trinity concept came later as the Catholic answer to the Docetists.

Wrong.
Paul and the others KNEW Jesus was God....Thomas' response to Jesus proves that fact.
That the WORD 'Trinity' didnt show up for some time is irrelevant.
The TEXTS themselves PROVE that Jesus Christ IS God.
:yes

 

[handy]

I guess you pick your NT author and accept his version of Jesus.

Or, you could try reading the whole of Scripture, with a mind open to the Spirit's teaching and see what is actually quite obvious. The old testament prophets, the psalmists, and the apostles all confirm what Jesus both taught and accepted about Himself, that He is God and worthy to be worshipped.

 

[Panin]

if Jesus was GOD, how come he worshiped GOD???

The age old question. This topic was recently discussed in a couple of different threads and you will get many opinions on it. The majority of christians believe that Jesus was God as explained in the trinity doctrine or variation of it. The minority of christians hold the belief the Jesus is not equal to God and have various opinions as to what level of divinity he had.

You can look back in church history and you will see Arius, a church priest, being deemed a heretic by the Council of Nicea in 325 for his teachings referred to as Arianism which was against Jesus being equal to God. He was then exonerated of these heretic charges in 335 and then deemed a heretic again after his death. Constantine and the Concil of Nicea ended the debate in 325 by establishing the trinity doctrine and the nicene creed as Church doctrine. This is the basics anyways.

Constantine has zero do with establishing the trinity as a doctrine. The council of Nicea established the false Roman Catholic Church and put an end to the preaching of the true gospel in all the world.

 

[follower of Christ]

I guess you pick your NT author and accept his version of Jesus.

Or, you could try reading the whole of Scripture, with a mind open to the Spirit's teaching and see what is actually quite obvious. The old testament prophets, the psalmists, and the apostles all confirm what Jesus both taught and accepted about Himself, that He is God and worthy to be worshipped.

AMEN !

 

[JoJo]

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[seekandlisten]

if Jesus was GOD, how come he worshiped GOD???

The age old question. This topic was recently discussed in a couple of different threads and you will get many opinions on it. The majority of christians believe that Jesus was God as explained in the trinity doctrine or variation of it. The minority of christians hold the belief the Jesus is not equal to God and have various opinions as to what level of divinity he had.

You can look back in church history and you will see Arius, a church priest, being deemed a heretic by the Council of Nicea in 325 for his teachings referred to as Arianism which was against Jesus being equal to God. He was then exonerated of these heretic charges in 335 and then deemed a heretic again after his death. Constantine and the Concil of Nicea ended the debate in 325 by establishing the trinity doctrine and the nicene creed as Church doctrine. This is the basics anyways.

Constantine has zero do with establishing the trinity as a doctrine. The council of Nicea established the false Roman Catholic Church and put an end to the preaching of the true gospel in all the world.

Sorry, I have to ask a question on this comment. First, I would suggest you check out church history and where it's doctrines came from a little more. Second, how do you justify your stance based on the beliefs of christianity when you exclude the first 1500 years of the church?? Now I'm assuming you are protestant here so forgive me if I'm wrong in that assumption. The Catholic Church is the only church with a recorded history back to St. Peter and a lot of Protestant doctrines were formed by the Catholic Church so if you say they are false where does that leave you standing? Martin Luther started the Reformation in 1517 with nailing his '95 Thesis' to the door of the Catholic Church. It started as merely trying to 'reform' doctrines in the church that were considered inconsistent with Scripture such as the selling of indulgences. Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wycliffe, Johannes Hus, and Ulrich Zwingli were among those promoting this reformation. From here is where the Protestants broke off from the Catholic church and have since split into numerous denominations. So my question I guess would be if you believe the Catholic church to be false how is your church/beliefs any better then the next 'church' that emerges?? It's kind of all or nothing otherwise you are just diregarding parts of your 'religion' that don't agree with you.

Anyways I dont' want to drag this topic off topic or make it into a Catholic debate as that is not my point but I would pose the question of where your 'backing' is for defending church doctrines when you disregard the origins of the doctrine? If the true gospel was stopped in 325 what gospel are we following now?

 

[rrtr]

Well my friends i know whatever i say and whatever proof i give from your own bible you will always reject it. Quran chapter 2 verse 18 "Deaf, dumb and blind; and they return not. (18)" even if you see clear proofs in your own book the bible that Jesus is not GOD you don't wanna accept these verses because that is the way you have been living since you've been born ... following the parents and the traditions...what if your parents are wrong... listen to what Jesus Christ peace be upon him said in your bible. Matthew 15:9 "But in vain(worthless) they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." so he clearly said worshiping me is worthless and that men will teach the doctrines of men not of Jesus peace be upon him or GOD... men will teach the doctrines of trinity that come from men,and also teach the doctrines that Jesus is GOD that will come from men...man will teach the doctrines that throwing the law of Moses peace be upon him away is "ok";this will come from men... but the worship you will give to me (Jesus pbuh) will be in vain...

James 1:13 (King James Version)
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man" so that is clear that GOD can not be tempted by evil... right??? ok how about this

Matthew 4:1-11 (New International Version)
"1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil." so look how clear it is Jesus has been tempted, GOD cannot be tempted... i'm not bringing anything from my mind everything from your book bible

 

[Free]

Well my friends i know whatever i say and whatever proof i give from your own bible you will always reject it.

You have not given any proof that shows the Trinity to be false. The problem is that you do not understand what the doctrine states and that is why you think those verses prove the Trinity to be false.

because that is the way you have been living since you've been born ... following the parents and the traditions...what if your parents are wrong

Fallacious. Were you born and raised a Muslim?

listen to what Jesus Christ peace be upon him said in your bible

We are.

and that men will teach the doctrines of men not of Jesus

Hence, the Quran.

 

[handy]

Matthew 15:9 "But in vain(worthless) they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." so he clearly said worshiping me is worthless

To start with, this is a misquote of what Jesus is saying. Jesus is not saying that worshipping Him is worthless. Please, I want to be patient with you as you are not familiar with the Holy Bible. But, you may want to take the time to ask some questions, rather than misquote and take the Holy Bible out of context. Jesus is quoting Isaiah here (Isaiah being one of the prophets who foretold of the divine nature of Jesus) and telling the Pharisees that their worship of God is worthless because they placed their own traditions above and beyond what the Moses and the Prophets told them. Since the prophets did indeed tell us that Jesus would be God, we are not placing a "tradition" above the clear teaching of the Scriptures, but rather we are following the clear teaching of the Scriptures.

James 1:13 (King James Version)
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man" so that is clear that GOD can not be tempted by evil... right??? ok how about this

Matthew 4:1-11 (New International Version)
"1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil." so look how clear it is Jesus has been tempted, GOD cannot be tempted... i'm not bringing anything from my mind everything from your book bible

Again, trying to be patient and understand that you are not familiar with the Holy Bible, but yet again you are taking some things out of context and mis-applying Scriptures.

Jesus was indeed led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. In each of the temptations, He had the opportunity to act like God, to miracolusly overcome each temptation, or to act like man, and in a godly manner, counter each temptation with God's word given to all of us. Why?

There is, of course, an answer to this question. This is a good question, the question of why Jesus allowed Himself to be tempted and one worthy of study. And, I am more than willing to study this question, because it will require some study, not just an off-the-cuff answer, with you, if you are willing to actually study the question with me.

But, before I do, I truly want to ask you a question here rrtr. To what end would be the answer to this question? Would you, upon receiving a clearer understanding of why Jesus humbled Himself to the point of allowing Satan to tempt Him, then cease from casting accusations at our faith? Or, would you just move on to yet another attempt to tear down the faith of Christians?

You are a Muslim. You have come here, not asking questions as much as hurling accusations. If your intent is just to get Christians to doubt and falter in their faith, then quite frankly, I'm not playing that game with you.

If however, you are legitimately interested in why we Christians believe the way we do, then I would ask that you stop mis-quoting our Holy Book, show some respect and ask questions with the attitude of learning new information.

I do want a clearer understanding as to your motives here. Then I'll be willing to take the time to study the comparison of the texts in James and Matthew.

 

[follower of Christ]

Sorry, I have to ask a question on this comment. First, I would suggest you check out church history and where it's doctrines came from a little more. Second, how do you justify your stance based on the beliefs of christianity when you exclude the first 1500 years of the church?? Now I'm assuming you are protestant here so forgive me if I'm wrong in that assumption. The Catholic Church is the only church with a recorded history back to St. Peter and a lot of Protestant doctrines were formed by the Catholic Church so if you say they are false where does that leave you standing? Martin Luther started the Reformation in 1517 with nailing his '95 Thesis' to the door of the Catholic Church. It started as merely trying to 'reform' doctrines in the church that were considered inconsistent with Scripture such as the selling of indulgences. Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wycliffe, Johannes Hus, and Ulrich Zwingli were among those promoting this reformation. From here is where the Protestants broke off from the Catholic church and have since split into numerous denominations. So my question I guess would be if you believe the Catholic church to be false how is your church/beliefs any better then the next 'church' that emerges?? It's kind of all or nothing otherwise you are just diregarding parts of your 'religion' that don't agree with you.

Anyways I dont' want to drag this topic off topic or make it into a Catholic debate as that is not my point but I would pose the question of where your 'backing' is for defending church doctrines when you disregard the origins of the doctrine? If the true gospel was stopped in 325 what gospel are we following now?

Thats kind of ridiculous, S.
NO protestant I know of would say that every single aspect of Catholic Doctrine is false.
MOST of catholic doctrine is probably dead on.
The Reformers werent looking for a new religion, gent...men like Luther wanted his precious church to be reformed, not have to abandon her.
When these men understood the TRUTH,they wanted the CC to come to that truth as a whole. She refused and they were ostracized and murdered in many cases.

So we dont have to make any claims that the catholic church had it all wrong, either then or now.
We can reject the error that she pushes and embrace the truth she embraces.

Its NOT all or nothing and we DO disagree with the parts that ARENT scriptural.
That goes for every denomination out there as well.
We accept what is truth and reject what isnt.


.