A question for Gary - Salvation in Islam?

[protos]

If you apply some logic and realise that there can only be one truth... and that Islam and Christianity cannot both be true when they both claim to be the truth, then why would you not expect each to believe what they have is the truth?

For a person who claims to use logic, you sure make a silly argument. You use the word, "truth," like some sort of whoopy-cushion. A profound reading of resources will grant you exegetical knowledge as to the truth. Start by figuring out why the following verses of the Qur'an all contradict each other:

Qur'an 96:1 Qur'an 6:2 Qur'an 25:54

 

[Gary]

LOL... there are many contradictions in the Quran. Why only quote those?

What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]

Read more: -click here-

 

[Joudie]

How would you know? Ever seen an experienced Christian apologist debate with a Muslim?

Not face-to-face live in front of me, if that's what you mean. But on television, sure.

I said, "It would be constant bashing of rock-hard heads."

Really? Any experience that you can quote?

No experience that I can quote per se. But I have seen debates on TV that are very similar to just bashing heads. No information is going through the ears of the other. It's just, "No, this is right and that is wrong." "No, this is right and that is wrong"...so on and so forth. Kinda like each one is talking to a brick wall.

I said, "It's almost always like that, especially when each party thinks he and only he is right."

If you apply some logic and realise that there can only be one truth... and that Islam and Christianity cannot both be true when they both claim to be the truth, then why would you not expect each to believe what they have is the truth?

Hey, that's exactly what I mean. Each one thinks that he himself has THE truth. So, unless they're blessed with some degree of open-mindedness, they'll never be able to see anything from the other person's perspective. That's why I refer to it as bashing of hard-heads. "I'm right and you're wrong" versus "No, I'm right and you're wrong.

See?

 

[DivineNames]

Oh, and it does "figure" that Muslims say that Christians are condemned to Hell for being "idolators", just like Christians say Muslims are condemned to Hell because they haven't been born again nor received the Holy Spirit.

Well the Roman Catholic Church accepts that a Muslim can be saved. Some Protestant would agree. Eastern Orthodox seem to consider it possible.

 

[lecoop]

Muslim conversion

On the other hand, I spent one semester at the University of Idaho, in a VERY close contact with a devout Muslim, as he was sharing my computer. It seems they assigned one to many people to the class!

We started early in the semseter going to the library, and comparing the bible with the Quran. For the next months I did everything the HS could get across to me to get this man born again, but it was like speaking to a wall. However, toward the end of the semester, the wall had signs of collapse! He came one day, and was looking at his feet. He would not look up. I ask if he was not feeling well, and he agreed. Then I said, physical of spiritual? And he said spiritual. That was on a Friday. On Saturday, I started praying for him, as I had done many times before. However, this time, the HG said, "you must cast the Muslim demon out of him!" So I proceeded to cast it out. It took me 4 hours of serious warfare praying, but I felt in my spirit when that religious devil left.

Monday, he came running up to me all excited, and said, "I have something to tell you: Saturday, I begin to think, I was not being a good Muslim, why be a Muslim at all! So I gave up my Muslim faith!" I ask him about what time that was on Saturday, and he gave the same time that I knew the spirit had left him.

The point of this is simple: demon in - religion in. Demon cast out - religion out! The word of God, over the course of one semester, totally destroyed all that demon had done in his lifetime! All praise be to God!

Coop

 

[Gary]

Yeah, but a hardcore Islamic Fundy and Gary (a Christian) discussing their respective religions would get absolutely nothing across.

How would you know? Ever seen an experienced Christian apologist debate with a Muslim?

Not face-to-face live in front of me, if that's what you mean. But on television, sure.

.. and who would that have been? Who was the Muslim and who was the Christian?

It would be constant bashing of rock-hard heads.

Really? Any experience that you can quote?

No experience that I can quote per se. But I have seen debates on TV that are very similar to just bashing heads. No information is going through the ears of the other. It's just, "No, this is right and that is wrong." "No, this is right and that is wrong"...so on and so forth. Kinda like each one is talking to a brick wall.

If you remember this so well then you must remember who the debate was between. What were their names? What were they debating? What were their main points?

It's almost always like that, especially when each party thinks he and only he is right.

If you apply some logic and realise that there can only be one truth... and that Islam and Christianity cannot both be true when they both claim to be the truth, then why would you not expect each to believe what they have is the truth?

Hey, that's exactly what I mean. Each one thinks that he himself has THE truth. So, unless they're blessed with some degree of open-mindedness, they'll never be able to see anything from the other person's perspective. That's why I refer to it as bashing of hard-heads. "I'm right and you're wrong" versus "No, I'm right and you're wrong.
See?

I do understand what you are trying to say. However, your reasoning is wrong. If both Christianity and Islam claim to have the full truth and if Islam and Christianity differ, then either Islam is right or Christianity is right. Of course, a third alternative exists ... that they are both wrong!

If you have done any serious reading or studying on the topic, then you will know that Christians have very successfully debated Muslims, showing them the inconsistencies within Islam and within the life of their prophet, Muhammad. It follows that Islam is not the full truth.

It may be true that Islam has SOME truth. But Christianity alone has the full truth or fullness of truth.

IF you had seen some of the debates by people such as John Gilchrist (who successfully debated many Muslims, including Deedat) you will see how he uses the part-truth of Islam to reveal the full truth of Christianity. He uses both the Quran and the Bible to do this.

Read John Gilchrist's "Sharing the Gospel with Muslims".... it is a wonderful example of the correct way to share the Good News of Jesus Christ with Muslims.

His whole book is online here:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchris ... index.html

 

[Soma-Sight]

Islamic conceptions of atonement for sin

Qur'an teaches that the main way back to God is through genuine repentance (in Arabic "Tawbah" which literally means 'to return'). See Repentance in Islam for further discussions.

Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Turn ye to our Lord (in repentance) and bow to His (Will), before the Penalty comes on you: after that ye shall not be helped. (Qur'an 39:53-54)
"Verily! Allah Accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards, to them Allah will turn in Mercy, for Allah is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom. And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them and he says "now have I repented indeed", nor of those who die rejecting faith: for them have we prepared a chastisement most grievous."(Qur'an 4: 17-18).
In many verses of Qur'an, God promises to forgive sins of those who believe and do good works (Qur'an 47:2, 29:7, 14:23 etc.)

In the Islamic theology, the animal sacrifices or blood are not directly linked to atonement (Qur'an 22:37: "It is not their meat nor their blood that reaches Allah. it is your piety that reaches Him..."). On the other hand, the sacrifice is done to help the poor, and in remembrance of Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son (according to the Muslims, Ishmael) at God's command.

Prayer and good deeds can also be atonements for sins (Qur'an 11:114). The Islamic Law, Sharia specifies the atonement of any particular sin. Depending on the sin, the atonement can range from repentance and compensation of the sin if possible, feeding the poor, freeing slaves to even stoning to death or cutting hands.

Some of the major sins are held to be legally punishable in an Islamic state (for example, murder, theft, adultery, and in some views apostasy; see sharia). Most are left to God to punish (for example, backbiting, hypocrisy, arrogance, filial disrespect, lying).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin#Islami ... nt_for_sin

 

[Gary]

Atonement is NOT salvation. As I have already explained, there is no way that a Muslim can feel at any time that he is on his way to "paradise" UNLESS he is martyred fighting for his "god" allah.

Islam, like many other cults, is a works-based religion. Muslims try and work their way to "paradise".

:-?

 

[Gary]

How sure is Muhammad of his own salvation?

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 58, Number 266:

Narrated 'Um al-'Ala:
An Ansari woman who gave the pledge of allegiance to the Prophet that the Ansar drew lots concerning the dwelling of the Emigrants. 'Uthman bin Maz'un was decided to dwell with them (i.e. Um al-'Ala's family), 'Uthman fell ill and I nursed him till he died, and we covered him with his clothes. Then the Prophet came to us and I (addressing the dead body) said, "O Abu As-Sa'ib, may Allah's Mercy be on you! I bear witness that Allah has honored you." On that the Prophet said, "How do you know that Allah has honored him?" I replied, "I do not know. May my father and my mother be sacrificed for you, O Allah's Apostle! But who else is worthy of it (if not 'Uthman)?" He said, "As to him, by Allah, death has overtaken him, and I hope the best for him. By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do to me," By Allah, I will never assert the piety of anyone after him. That made me sad, and when I slept I saw in a dream a flowing stream for 'Uthman bin Maz'un. I went to Allah's Apostle and told him of it. He remarked, "That symbolizes his (good) deeds."

http://answer-islam.org/Inspiredhadith2.html#SALVATION

:-? :-?

 

[Soma-Sight]

Atonement is NOT salvation. As I have already explained, there is no way that a Muslim can feel at any time that he is on his way to "paradise" UNLESS he is martyred fighting for his "god" allah.

Islam, like many other cults, is a works-based religion. Muslims try and work their way to "paradise".

In Islam

The concept of heaven in Islam is similar to that found in Judaism and Christianity. The Qu'ran contains many references to an afterlife in Eden for those who do good deeds. Heaven itself is commonly described in the Qu'ran in verse 35 of Surah Al-Ra’d: "The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised! Beneath it flow rivers. Perpetual is the fruits thereof and the shade therein. Such is the End of the Righteous; and the end of the unbelievers is the Fire, wherein a person dwells forever." Since Islam rejects the concept of original sin, Muslims believe that all human beings are born pure and will naturally turn to God, but it is their environment which influences them to choose ungodly ways of life. In Islam, therefore, a child who dies automatically goes to heaven, regardless of the religion of his or her parents. The highest level of heaven is Firdaws (فردوس), which is where the prophets, the martyrs and the most truthful and pious people will dwell.


Qu'ranic Names of Heavens

Firdaws  The Highest Gardens of the Heaven (Al-Kahf:107, Al-Mu'minūn:11)

Dar al-maqama  The Home (Fātir:35)

Dar al-salam  Home of Peace (Yūnis:25)

Dar al-hywan  The Home in the Hereafter (Al-‘Anqabūt:64)

Janna  This is the most commonly used term in the Qur’an and Hadith. (Al-Baqara:35, Āl al-‘Imrān:133 & 142, Al-Mā'ida:72)

Janna al-adan  Gardens of Everlasting Bliss (Tawba:72, Al-Ra’d:23)

Janna al-khuld  The Eternal Gardens (Al-Furqān:15)

Janna al-mawa  Garden of Abode (Al-Najm:15)

Janna al-na’īm  The Gardens of Delight (Al-Mā'ida:65, Yūnis:9, Al-
Hajj:56)

Maqad as-sidq  Assembly of Truth (Al-Qawr:55)

Al-maqam al-amīn  The House of Security (Al-Dukhan:51)

Qadam as-sidq  Assembly ofTruth (Al-Qawr:55).

Descriptions of Heavens

Accessibility: "When Allah Almighty created the heaven and the hell, He asked [the angel] Gabriel to go and take a look at what He has prepared for believers in the Heaven. Gabriel went and had a look at what was there in the Heaven, and then he came back and expressed himself thus: 'By your dignity! Whoever will hear of this Heaven will certainly strive for it.' Then it was said that the road to the heaven is littered with hardships, and Gabriel was asked to take another look at the Heaven. He came back and said, 'By your dignity I am afraid that nobody will be able to enter it.'"

(Tirmizi)

Gates: "The Prophet of Allah (SAW) said: Whoever performed a perfect ablution and recited the Shahada then all the eight doors of the heaven are thrust open for him  he may enter from whichever door he likes." (Sahih Muslim)

Distances: "By Him in whose hands my soul is, the distance between the two gate posts of paradise is like the distance between Mecca and Himyar or between Mecca and Basra." (Bukhari)

God's throne: "When you pray ask for Firdaws, for it is in the middle of heaven and is higher in grade than the heaven and above Firdaws is Allah’s throne, moreover the canals of heaven flow from Firdaws." (Bukhari)
Climate: The Qur’an says of the dwellers of the heaven: "They will see there neither the sun’s [excessive heat] nor the moon’s excessive cold."

Soil: "And then I was showed in the heaven, I saw there were camps made of pearls and the soil was of musk." (Bukhari)

Vegetation: "Indeed, there is a tree in heaven so big that if a person keeps riding on a brisk Madhamar [a specially bred horse] for a hundred years even then he would not reach the end of that tree." (Bukhari)
Splendour: "Abu Huraira (RA) reported that the Prophet of Allah (SAW) said: There is no tree in the heaven that does not have a trunk of gold."

(Muslim)

Sleep: "Sleep is the sister of death and the dwellers of the heaven will not sleep." (Silsalat al-ahadith)

Beauty: "Indeed, there is a bazaar in the heaven where the dwellers of the Heaven will come on every Friday. The northerly wind will spray scent on them and this will enhance their beauty. And when they will return to their homes, their households will say 'By Allah, your beauty has enhanced.' 'So has yours,' they will return the compliment." (Muslim)

Within: Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven is 'within'. In other words it is simply a state of internal happiness by being at peace with one's self in this life, not a place elsewhere.


James 2:17

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[Gary]

The concept of heaven in Islam is similar to that found in Judaism and Christianity.

Oh please! You copy-n-paste ANYTHING without doing the slightest bit of research.

Have you even read a single Surah of the Quran? I honestly doubt it.

The Muslim "heaven" called paradise is a very physical place. It has food and wine and young women (houris, maidens). That is what inspired the Arab warriors to fight for Muhammad and his god called allah.

The men also have many fair maidens (the Hadith say that each has 72 maidens!) There is no mention of the equivalent for the women. Muhammad was bad at arithmetic. He had also claimed that he had visited hell (I sure he did and is still visiting).... and he claimed that in hell, most people are women :roll:

If wine is forbidden on earth, why have it in "paradise"?

:o :o

 

[Bilal]

Gary,

"Muslims have to work for paradise"

Well duh...in order to achieve something soooo beutiful and glorious as the rewards of heaven, for eternity, you have to lift a finger or two, dont u think? Are you sayin that Christians, as long as they beleive in Jesus/God that they will automatically attain paradise- without having to don anthing? So if Jesus is ur savior...so did he take the punishement of all those sinners? Surely one person cannot take ALL that evil....evry single person oN this earth (YES EVERY SINGLE PERSON) is sinful, some more than others-- and can Jesus really take the punishemnt for all those...and why?

In that thingy about "Muhammad not being sure about his own fate"....even the prophet of Allah is not sure about his fate....only Allah is the judge and only Allah can say whether or not someone goes to heaven/hell. despite what one may think about a person, regardless of how piuos they seem, they can no way predict their fate. So u have misinterepreted that.

And on the question of Matrydom: Of course if someone was to give that thing that is most precious as life in the way of Allah, then yes the greatest reward woud be given. Remember it must be done purely for Allah, not for political reasons or movemnets, etc.... Now distinguish between false claims of matrydoms and real ones please...

Out of interest- do Christians have matrydom/ holy war/ etc. and what is the reward?

 

[Soma-Sight]

The Muslim "heaven" called paradise is a very physical place. It has food and wine and young women (houris, maidens). That is what inspired the Arab warriors to fight for Muhammad and his god called allah.

So you admit the Book of Revelation is metaphorical on the subject of a physical heaven?

You believe in a non physical heaven?

That is more pagan than Christian. I have always believed that most Christians prescribed to a "New Heavens and New Earth" (see Isaiah...)

I guess the real question is..... Will we have penises and vaginas in Heaven?