A question for those with "uncertainty"

[radorth]

I KNOW where I am at in my walk. I DONT doubt Gods existence and I DONT doubt that He is very active in my life and I trust Him implicitly. He has left me with no choice in the matter.
Does that bother you ?

Not at all. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, no need to react so, making wild guesses at my own motives. You merely have to post some pics of you prohesying, casting out demons or walking on water.

Sorry, what made you think I was talking to you or anyone in particular? Did I hit a nerve or something?

 

[radorth]

And some who dont have that kind of faith want everyone to admit that they dont have it either so they can feel better about themselves.

Ooooo. Wow

Actually those who have real faith feel no need at all to judge the faith of anyone in particular, as you just did. Although if they did judge, they would likely be the most accurate.

Keep pulling up those tares whenever you see one.

 

[follower of Christ]

Not at all. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, no need to react so, making wild guesses at my own motives.

Look in a mirror chap. Your own post was nothing but accusations against anyone who claims to have unwavering faith. Your comments reveal your motivation.

You merely have to post some pics of you prohesying, casting out demons or walking on water.

I dont 'have' to do anything for your benefit, quite frankly. I KNOW where I stand.

Sorry, what made you think I was talking to you or anyone in particular? Did I hit a nerve or something?

The nerve hit was that anyone would HAVE the nerve to make the statements you have.

 

[follower of Christ]

Ooooo. Wow

Actually those who have real faith feel no need at all to judge the faith of anyone in particular, as you just did.

Sorry chap but if you will actually READ my posts I was RESPONDING to the nonsense in YOUR post. Its hardly 'judging' you or anyone else when you make statements as you have and I RESPOND to them.

 

[follower of Christ]

radorth.
Here is my post again. Do you have anything in RESPONSE to what I said in this post or not ?

Veritas is correct, and all we have to do get more faith is admit ours is small.

Please. Veritas, nor you, are the authority on faith here.

This almost no Christian will do because of fear, of one kind or another.

Is this the game you must try to play to try to force someone to admit something that isnt true ?
Sorry to ruin your day but I have no fear in the matter and I know I have faith.
Im afraid you folks are going to have to learn to live with the FACT that many of us DO have faith that some seemingly cannot fathom.

Jesus' ministry was how long ?
About 3 years.
That means that His disciples were VERY young believers even at His death.
Many of US have been believers for decades. MUCH longer than when Jesus chastised His disciples for not having faith. LONG enough to have actually gotten faith that they did not have AT THAT TIME when Jesus said what He did.

I have found that a lot of blustering about what the scripture says and an inability to respect another's experience, usually indicates a weak faith where there has been no real interaction with God.

Absolute nonsense.
Again, is this the game you have to play here ?
YOU dont have the faith that we are talking about so you have to find some way to attack the faith of those who DO to try to get them to agree with you ?
Isnt going to happen, poster.
Ive had things happen and seen things in my life and I KNOW He exists. And I KNOW that my life was forfeit and my existence is in Him alone now. He has given me no choice but to have 100% faith in Him.

To one who has actually been to the third heaven, most preaching and doctrinal debates sound like a bunch of religious noise from people who have no real faith at all.

This sounds like someone who has no faith at all trying to convince himself that no one else does either ;)

I find more faith in people who have grown humbler and more apt to change their minds and admit their weaknesses as they grow in grace. (Is anybody here ready to boast like Paul of their weaknesses?)

MY weakness has nothing to do with my faith in God. I have plenty of my own weaknesses. And I have them while having 100% faith in God.

Those with great faith may have few friends and few people who agree with them. That is because the Reformation is still going on, and few Christians want to admit they haven't got it yet.Those with real faith don't repeat doctrines they heard "somewhere" over and over because the doctrine lines up with their experience. They don't need to prove to everybody they have it all figured out now. They are always hungry for more of the "living water" Jesus was talking about. (Jn 7:37 as I recall) If you don't have that, or haven't experienced it, you simply have beliefs. You don't really believe, because as Jesus said, if you did, "out of his inner most being will flow rivers of living water."

And maybe, poster, the REASON we share our faith is so that the READERS can KNOW that they CAN HAVE this kind of faith.
YOU see it as something negative, but people like my wife who are still young in Christ and have not yet come to that kind of faith...those who are genuinely SEARCHING for that faith, unlike some here who are simply trying to dismiss it...those such as my wife are blessed by seeing older brothers and sisters in Christ who are unwavering...who KNOW that God exists and trust Him without question.

Our faith is only actually a threat to those who dont have it yet and dont seem to want to admit it.

If you have not truly experienced that, you are a believer in name only I'm afraid, and it is just best to humble oneself and admit it, so it can flow.

And some who dont have that kind of faith want everyone to admit that they dont have it either so they can feel better about themselves.
Isnt going to happen.
I KNOW where I am at in my walk. I DONT doubt Gods existence and I DONT doubt that He is very active in my life and I trust Him implicitly. He has left me with no choice in the matter.
Does that bother you ?

All a few of you are doing is ENCOURAGING others to stop looking for that kind of faith. You seemingly are settled in your 99%, and so apparently want everyone else to just settle for 99% as well.

For you READERS, you CAN have more than what some here apparently what you to settle for.
Dont let anyone coerce you into accepting anything else..

 

[inhopeofglory]

Hey, please don't derail the thread. :bigfrown

My OP was actually aimed at those who DO feel some "uncertainty". Too many threads have turned into arguments lately; kindly refrain from making this one as well. If you wish to argue, please take it to the debate forum.

Regards, inhopeofglory


Edit: Hey, where'd the posts go? I was responding to posts that I can no longer see... I assume they've been deleted by the mods/posters.

 

[radorth]

My position that we have far less faith than we claim is proven many statements of Jesus. Here are just two:

"The works I do you shall do also, and greater works." So where are they? How did we manage to rationalize that one out of our church doctrines?

"He who believes in me, out of his innermost being will flow rivers of living water." This water is obviously missing in the life of one recent poster who has chosen to attack me merely for making general comments.

And then we have the little problem that no church holds meetings anything like the early Christians, where there were so many gifts operating that the members abused them. We will have such meetings again, when the pastors decide God can set his own agenda and run his own meetings. A few leaders in the past believed he could, with amazing and strikingly similar results. (Fox, Wesley, Seymour, Nee) Greater things will come I am sure.

 

[follower of Christ]

My position that we have far less faith than we claim is proven many statements of Jesus.

But the problem is that you are trying to apply to ALL men something that doesnt necessarily apply.
"we" might include you, but it does not include me or MANY other believers who DONT operate in faith that is filled with doubt.

Here are just two:

"The works I do you shall do also, and greater works." So where are they? How did we manage to rationalize that one out of our church doctrines?

And what, exactly, does this have to do with my faith in God ? Anything at all ? No.
Is 'greater works' defined only as 'sign gifts' by you ?
Is it 'greater' to speak in tongues or lead a soul to salvation ?

"He who believes in me, out of his innermost being will flow rivers of living water." This water is obviously missing in the life of one recent poster who has chosen to attack me merely for making general comments.

And thus the REASON for any 'attack' against you. you cannot resist the urge to levy personal assaults against others and their faith here, then complain if someone says anything back in your direction.
*I* have faith in God. I KNOW He exists. That faith would be the fruits of this 'living water'.
Those who DONT have such faith would be the ones who might be questioned as to having that living water, not those who DO believe in God 100%.

And then we have the little problem that no church holds meetings anything like the early Christians, where there were so many gifts operating that the members abused them.

There are many parts of the body. Not ALL of the members of the body have the same use. Paul made this VERY Clear when speaking about spiritual gifts.

 

[radorth]

And what, exactly, does this have to do with my faith in God ? Anything at all ? No.
Is 'greater works' defined only as 'sign gifts' by you ?
Is it 'greater' to speak in tongues or lead a soul to salvation ?

Um, the question is whether your works indicate a faith anything remotely close to Jesus works or even the 70 disciples he sent out, for that matter.

That faith would be the fruits of this 'living water'.

'Fraid not.

you cannot resist the urge to levy personal assaults against others and their faith here, then complain if someone says anything back in your direction.

That is simply false, and a ridiculous generality. I attacked no one personally here at all in regard to their faith, not one time on this thread, or any other thread that I recall. I don't question personal motives/faith of individuals. I'm sorry if the shoe fits and the scriptures apply. You simply assume my comments are aimed at you personally for reasons which escape me. Well yes, there is one you can apply to yourself, and you have opened yourself up to criticism, not me.

 

[follower of Christ]

Um, the question is whether your works indicate a faith anything remotely close to Jesus works or even the 70 disciples he sent out, for that matter.

Im sorry. Where again did Jesus SAY that EVERY person who had faith in God would perform magic tricks ?
When the 70 were sent out their GOAL was to bring salvation, the TRUE POWER of God.
Any exhibits of sign gifts were quite secondary.
An evil generation seeks for a sign.

'Fraid not.

2

That is simply false, and a ridiculous generality. I attacked no one personally here at all in regard to their faith, not one time on this thread, or any other thread that I recall.

huh..lets see.
So if *I* make a GENERAL comment that...hmmm....oh, I know...people from New York THINK they can drive but in reality they all stink at it.
I suppose that because its a GENERAL statement...ie no individuals were mentioned....that I can get away with it ?

Your assaults were against those who CLAIM to have 100% faith. That includes me and many other members of this forum and the church. So of course WE should be offended....even if you did not mention any person by name.

I don't question personal motives/faith of individuals. I'm sorry if the shoe fits and the scriptures apply.

Which is the point. The shoe DOESNT fit and YOUR use of the scriptures DONT apply

You simply assume my comments are aimed at you personally for reasons which escape me.

See the New York drivers example above.

Well yes, there is one you can apply to yourself, and you have opened yourself up to criticism, not me.

Its not just me you criticize but EVERY person in the church who has grown to have absolute faith in God.
We're not all Peter who was a VERY young believer when Jesus chastised him. We are DECADES into our walk and we have the Spirit of God indwelling us now.

 

[follower of Christ]

radorth...
Lets make this simple.

I have 100% faith in God and believe in an absolute fashion that God exists.

Is my statement possible in your opinion or am I just fooling myself ?

 

[radorth]

radorth...
Lets make this simple.

I have 100% faith in God and believe in an absolute fashion that God exists.

Is my statement possible in your opinion or am I just fooling myself ?

Well the demons believe in an absolute fashion that God exists, but they cannot do works of faith. I don't mean that as any kind of insult, just pointing out that belief is not really the same as the faith Jesus was talking about.

That is kind of a black or white question that does not really cover what it means to have faith.

 

[follower of Christ]

Well the demons believe in an absolute fashion that God exists, but they cannot do works of faith.

Cant just answer a question that would end this, can you ? ;)
Contrary to the belief of some, WE are not demons. And that passage is about not just believing but DOING. It isnt meant in any way to dismiss or belittle faith or belief of the Christian.
And also contrary to the beliefs of some, demons are VERY good at mimicking 'works'.
What a demon CANNOT do, however, is offer salvation...the TRUE power of God. They cannot convert a soul to Christ.

I don't mean that as any kind of insult, just pointing out that belief is not really the same as the faith Jesus was talking about.

You didnt answer my question for some reason.

That is kind of a black or white question that does not really cover what it means to have faith.

It certainly does when we are comparing apples TO apples instead of dodging the question with oranges. ;)

Its very evident that some here reject biblical faith that shows that we MUST believe and when we ask we must NOT DOUBT...an impossible task for those who only believe 99%...and clearly very possible for believers or the requirement wouldnt be present in the texts... ;)

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and with no reproach, and it shall be given to him.
But let him ask in faith, doubting nothing.
For he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven by the wind and tossed.
For do not let that man think that he shall receive anything from the Lord;
(Jas 1:5-7 MKJV)


Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[radorth]

[Cant just answer a question that would end this, can you ? ;)

Yes I can. Ask a more thoughtful one which accounts for the entire meaning of faith, as Jesus used the term.

Contrary to the belief of some, WE are not demons. And that passage is about not just believing but DOING. It isnt meant in any way to dismiss or belittle faith or belief of the Christian.

Well actually it's not about just "doing.' Good works are often dead works, done with the wrong motives. It's about fruit, about showing living works as proof of faith, not dead ones.

Nobody suggested you were a demon, so you can save such rhetoric for those who agree with you. You have once again missed the point. James is saying exactly what I am saying. You can have 100% faith there is a God and none of the faith which produces fruit. Your overly-simplistic question has been answered by James as well as me I'm afraid.

 

[follower of Christ]

Yes I can. Ask a more thoughtful one which accounts for the entire meaning of faith, as Jesus used the term.

You mean like His inspired word shows godly faith ?

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and with no reproach, and it shall be given to him.
But let him ask in faith, doubting nothing.
For he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven by the wind and tossed.
For do not let that man think that he shall receive anything from the Lord;
(Jas 1:5-7 MKJV)

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Folks on this forum can play any games they want to play but BIBLICAL faith is VERY clearly defined in the scriptures.

Well actually it's not about just "doing.' Good works are often dead works, done with the wrong motives. It's about fruit, about showing living works as proof of faith, not dead ones.

Did you read what I posted ? CLEARLY it was not JUST about doing..

Nobody suggested you were a demon, so you can save such rhetoric for those who agree with you.

The passage you quoted was NOT relevant as far as DEFINING what biblical faith is...it simply shows that believing ISNT enough...just as I have already stated.

You have once again missed the point.

Perhaps you arent making any valid point then..

James is saying exactly what I am saying.

Hardly.
In more than one post here you have made it seem like faith can be of the wavering sort....something SCRIPTURE shows VERY clearly isnt the case....care to see the evidence again ?

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and with no reproach, and it shall be given to him.
But let him ask in faith, doubting nothing.
For he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven by the wind and tossed.
For do not let that man think that he shall receive anything from the Lord;
(Jas 1:5-7 MKJV)
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

You can have 100% faith there is a God and none of the faith which produces fruit.

So YOU DO agree that 100% faith that He exists is something ALL believers can have. Thanks for the admission.

Your overly-simplistic question has been answered by James as well as me I'm afraid.

No, youve simply baited and switched here.
In one previous post I quoted of yours you werent discussing faith being evidenced by works, which is what JAMES presents, but were explaining how Veritas was 'correct' in his assertion that we all only have 'small' faith.

Veritas is correct,

Veritas ISNT right.
When Jesus spoke to His disciples about their faith they were VERY young in that faith. That cannot be applied to EVERY believer, especially ones who have been believers for decades.
Peter and the disciples GREW in faith and DID end up having 100% faith in Christ. That he didnt as a young follower of Christ has no bearing on us today who have been in Christ for much longer.

 

[radorth]

For he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven by the wind and tossed.

Oh, you mean like he who doubts the blood can save him, or he who doubts the gifts are for today?

On and on F-C goes, defensively counting faith in basics like baptism as being all the faith one can ever have.

 

[Guest]

radorth,

Please note the private message awaiting you.

 

[follower of Christ]

For he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven by the wind and tossed.

Oh, you mean like he who doubts the blood can save him, or he who doubts the gifts are for today?

Did you READ the CONTEXT of that passage, poster..or is that too much to ask ?

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and with no reproach, and it shall be given to him.
But let him ask in faith, doubting nothing.
For he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven by the wind and tossed.
For do not let that man think that he shall receive anything from the Lord;
(Jas 1:5-7 MKJV)

The CONTEXT is asking God for WISDOM and NOT doubting, and those who DO doubt shouldnt expect anything from God.
There frankly is NO way around that passage. And it is agreement with other passages concerning faith in God.

On and on F-C goes, defensively counting faith in basics like baptism as being all the faith one can ever have.

Apparently you have to resort to any absurd distraction or falsehood you need to to keep face here.
Why not just admit that the scripture TEACHES a different kind of faith than some here want to believe...

 

[follower of Christ]

BIBLICAL faith...

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and with no reproach, and it shall be given to him.
But let him ask in faith, doubting nothing.
For he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven by the wind and tossed.
For do not let that man think that he shall receive anything from the Lord;
(Jas 1:5-7 MKJV)

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Hebrews 11:6)

 

[Guest]

Ask a more thoughtful one which accounts for the entire meaning of faith, as Jesus used the term.

We need to be careful when seeking an "entire" definition of faith. Words can be used to mean different things, and the differences cannot always be reconciled. Thus, we must be careful that we do not impose the meaning of faith in one instance upon the meaning of faith in a second instance. That is not to say a biblical or Jesus-centered definition of faith cannot be derived, but we must understand that that "entire" meaning might not be employed by all the passages discussing faith. To see an example of how this might create problems, consider the following argument.

Premise: A plane is a woodworking tool.
Premise: A Boeing 747 is a plane.
Inference: Therefore, a Boeing 747 is a woodworking tool.