A question for those with "uncertainty"

[Guest]

No! That is not arrogance. That is assurance.

I believe in God's existence, but I have doubts. Do you believe I am a Christian? If you follow the logical consequences of your position, then you must say no. And, as another consequence, you have placed yourself in a position of superiority. That is, the one who "truly believes" as opposed to the one who adheres to a "false belief."

 

[JoJo]

No! That is not arrogance. That is assurance.

I believe in God's existence, but I have doubts. Do you believe I am a Christian? If you follow the logical consequences of your position, then you must say no. And, as another consequence, you have placed yourself in a position of superiority. That is, the one who "truly believes" as opposed to the one who adheres to a "false belief."

It isn't my opinion that matters. That's why I have made so many posts in these particular threads. Because when God asks you, "Do you believe in Me?" What will you say?

 

[Guest]

It isn't my opinion that matters. That's why I have made so many posts in these particular threads. Because when God asks you, "Do you believe in Me?" What will you say?

Is it possible your understanding of what is written is wrong?

 

[JoJo]

It isn't my opinion that matters. That's why I have made so many posts in these particular threads. Because when God asks you, "Do you believe in Me?" What will you say?

Is it possible your understanding of what is written is wrong?

Of what is written where? Could you be more specific?

Also, I wanted to take this opportunity to add that I do deal with pride in my life. I will not deny that. There are times when I do something that I happen to be good at doing and I feel pride. Although I am careful to thank God for his gifts, I sometimes succumb to the fleshly desire to pat myself on the back. That I will admit.

But I will never believe that it is pride to believe in God's existence. It's a contradiction and it is a false assumption to take someone's "assurance" and view it as "arrogance."

 

[follower of Christ]

No! That is not arrogance. That is assurance.

I believe in God's existence, but I have doubts. Do you believe I am a Christian? If you follow the logical consequences of your position, then you must say no. And, as another consequence, you have placed yourself in a position of superiority. That is, the one who "truly believes" as opposed to the one who adheres to a "false belief."

That isnt the case at all in many cases, tho there ARE those who clearly think they are christians who arent as shown in Matthew 25.
God gives a measure of faith but it must be cultivated to a mature faith.
What *I* have often found is that many young Christians actually have FAR greater faith than they believe, they simply havent been tested yet, so they believe they dont have it.
Once they are tested, such as Peter was tested and faltered, they come back from that testing with unshakable faith.
Its all part of 'growing up' in the Lord.

 

[Guest]

Of what is written where? Could you be more specific?

Where you gather your understand of the meaning of belief.

It's a contradiction and it is a false assumption to take someone's "assurance" and view it as "arrogance."

Possibility A: My belief is right. + It is possible my belief is wrong. = Assurance.
Possibility B: My belief is right. + It is impossible for my belief to be wrong. = Assurance and Arrogance.

My question again. Is it possible that you could be wrong in your understanding of belief?

 

[follower of Christ]

Possibility A: My belief is right. + It is possible my belief is wrong. = Assurance.

THAT is a contradiction.
You cannot truly BELIEVE something if you DO NOT BELIEVE that it is accurate.

Possibility B: My belief is right. + It is impossible for my belief to be wrong. = Assurance and Arrogance.

No YOU call it arrogance because apparently you cant deal with those who HAVE that assurance to the point of KNOWING that He IS.

Do we sometimes misunderstand Gods instruction ? Of course.
And that has nothing to do with our absolute faith that He IS because His Spirit CONFIRMS to us that He is.

My question again. Is it possible that you could be wrong in your understanding of belief?

About a topic such as predestinition ? Absolutely. There are seemingly conflicting pieces of information that make it a hard topic.
About Gods existence? Absolutely not. His Spirit confirms that He is

 

[Guest]

JoJo,

Ultimately, our disagreement comes down to our understandings about belief. You take one perspective, and I take another. I am not convinced we'll ever reach an agreement upon this point, so I believe it's best that we simply agree to disagree.

I think you're a wonderfully sweet girl who is confident in your beliefs. And, as you have noticed, I am quite convinced of my own perspective. That said, I believe it's better that we leave this topic behind as it will only lead to animosity. What do you say? Agree to disagree?

 

[Guest]

inhopeofglory,

I apologize for being involved in the derailment of your thread. I am going to refrain from further responses that are off topic.

 

[JoJo]

JoJo,

Ultimately, our disagreement comes down to our understandings about belief. You take one perspective, and I take another. I am not convinced we'll ever reach an agreement upon this point, so I believe it's best that we simply agree to disagree.

I think you're a wonderfully sweet girl who is confident in your beliefs. And, as you have noticed, I am quite convinced of my own perspective. That said, I believe it's better that we leave this topic behind as it will only lead to animosity. What do you say? Agree to disagree?

I don't mind agreeing to disagree. As I said before, it isn't my opinion that matters.

 

[Guest]

I don't mind agreeing to disagree.

Good to hear that.

 

[Orion]

IMO, . . no one can be 100% certain of anything, regardless of how devout, or even "certain" (in a human's ability to be, that is) you are TO it.

I could never say that I am 100% certain of God. My uncertainty lies in the fact that anything remotely approaching "evidence" is superfiscial, at best. The very words of the Bible are SAID to be "from God", . . but it is said so within the same book, which is circular logic. I have had no real observable (with any of my physical senses) knowledge of anything beyond the natural existing. I've searched for it truly, . . . but have only discovered . . . . lack. A lack of anything tangible to grasp.

 

[follower of Christ]

IMO, . . no one can be 100% certain of anything, regardless of how devout, or even "certain" (in a human's ability to be, that is) you are TO it.

While I disagree, I can at least respect that you say that this is your opinion.
The only real problem is that folks who think like this seem to forget that the ROOT and FOUNDATION of our faith ISNT us...its God who has given us all a measure of faith.
On our own, we absolutely could not believe 100%.
But we arent on our own. We have His Spirit within us confirming that we are the children of God.

(Rom 8:16) The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

That makes all the difference in the world

I could never say that I am 100% certain of God. My uncertainty lies in the fact that anything remotely approaching "evidence" is superficial, at best.

What sort of evidence are you looking for ?

The very words of the Bible are SAID to be "from God", . . but it is said so within the same book, which is circular logic.

Oh boy...not this here in this thread too :o
Believers need to lay off mans logic and reasoning. God doesnt have to PROVE anything to us in the way WE demand. Nor do His ways have to be 'logical' to our senses...especially those senses honed for us by those who'd rather God didnt exist.

I have had no real observable (with any of my physical senses) knowledge of anything beyond the natural existing. I've searched for it truly, . . . but have only discovered . . . . lack. A lack of anything tangible to grasp.

Peculiar.

 

[Orion]

I realize that you are 100% certain of God, and that rests upon your faith. I hope you can see my truthfullness in saying that faith that God IS, . . . . and IS what the Bible STATES about God, . . . is where I can't be 100%. As for what "evidence", . . . it would be that which is beyond the natural, of course, . . . not someone else "telling me what God is saying to me", or my "evidence" being my ability to accept it all on pure faith and have the "relationship with God through Bible study and prayer/meditation". Something that I would be unable to dismiss. . . . and God COULD do that.
You said, "God doesnt have to PROVE anything to us in the way WE demand. Nor do His ways have to be 'logical' to our senses..." Why not? Why all the "cloke and dagger"? Why all the "mystery"? I'm not "demanding" anything, . . . just NEED something more than a pastor telling me that it is true. Just another man, with flaws intact, . . .as has been the case for millenia, . . . expressing what others "should believe". The thing is, real PROOF would not be wrong for God to do so. If there was just ONE person who would benefit from it, . . . why wouldn't God step in and make himself real to that ONE person, if he cares about them? The shephard left the 99 and came to fine the one, . . . and don't you know that he had to play a significant role in getting that ONE sheep back, whether by prodding or actually picking it up and carrying it.

 

[follower of Christ]

I realize that you are 100% certain of God, and that rests upon your faith.

Well, as I presented, I cant take credit for it because without His Spirit I would have no faith. It all comes back to Him.

I hope you can see my truthfullness in saying that faith that God IS, . . . . and IS what the Bible STATES about God, . . . is where I can't be 100%.

No, I understood
I appreciate your point of view and your thoughts. I didnt mean to make it sound otherwise.

As for what "evidence", . . . it would be that which is beyond the natural, of course, . . . not someone else "telling me what God is saying to me", or my "evidence" being my ability to accept it all on pure faith and have the "relationship with God through Bible study and prayer/meditation". Something that I would be unable to dismiss. . . . and God COULD do that.

I think He deals with each of us individually. What might work with me, may not with you. So how He ends up 'proving' Himself to you is likely to be entirely different than He did with someone else.

My own view is, based on my own experiences and those Ive noticed with others, is that is wasnt that we were short of faith, its that we didnt really know how much we did actually believe until we were tested and could see the results.
With me it took nearly dying before I realized how much I did actually believe in Him.
He gives us faith and He cultivates that faith where we are seeking for it to be cultivated.
He cannot deny Himself, nor can His Spirit, so we know that the doubt comes from our carnal nature, so the trick rejecting what the carnal nature would tell us. Many times thats pretty hard to do, I understand, but when that testing has happened you suddenly realize that the Spirit endwelling you KNEW things that your carnal nature didnt.
To some this ends up seeming like 'blind faith', but I assure you it isnt. Its simply realizing that our carnal minds are VERY limited and seek to overpower that which is spiritual. When we are tested like Peter was and we have run the course, we are able to understand our carnal mind and its games much better and not pay so much attention to the things it would have us believe (ie doubt, fear, etc).

Im sorry if this doesnt make much sense. Its not easy for me to put concepts into words a lot of times.

You said, "God doesnt have to PROVE anything to us in the way WE demand. Nor do His ways have to be 'logical' to our senses..." Why not? Why all the "cloke and dagger"? Why all the "mystery"? I'm not "demanding" anything, . . . just NEED something more than a pastor telling me that it is true.

Well, from my understanding of Gods word man has simply cause a separation from God of sorts (thus deserving death). We brought that on ourselves with our sinfulness.
Based on my studies I believe that God has 'hidden' Himself in a manner of speaking, and wants man to come looking FOR Him.
He gives us a piece of Himself, His Spirit, and then wants us to 'find' Him (for lack of a better word).

Jeremiah says;

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
(Jer 29:13 KJV)

God loves us, Orion.
And my honest opinion is that He wants us to love Him. So much so that given a direction that we will seek out our Creator.
Its not a game or anything, its just that as a race we've chosen evil...we've searched evil out and embraced it. Cant we give at least that much in search of our Lord ?

Is this making any sense ?

Just another man, with flaws intact, . . .as has been the case for millenia, . . . expressing what others "should believe". The thing is, real PROOF would not be wrong for God to do so. If there was just ONE person who would benefit from it, . . . why wouldn't God step in and make himself real to that ONE person, if he cares about them? The shephard left the 99 and came to fine the one, . . . and don't you know that he had to play a significant role in getting that ONE sheep back, whether by prodding or actually picking it up and carrying it.

I understand.
And He came and picked up that one sheep (you) when He drew you to repentance and His Spirit endwelled you.
But you want MORE of Him very apparently,as we all have and do.
Jesus said....

If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
(Luk 11:11-13 KJV)

Just ask. And ask again. And again. And keep asking until He responds.
Remember Jeremiah;

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
(Jer 29:13 KJV)

God bless you Orion. Dont give up or get discouraged. This is a long path we are on.

 

[Orion]

I will keep searching, . . . but when you stated, "drew you to repentance and His Spirit endwelled you" . . . I don't recognize this happening to me, . . . not in a way that I can KNOW for a fact.

Also, I'm not "running towards evil". I have MANY opportunities TO do just that, but choose not to. Just FYI

 

[follower of Christ]

I will keep searching, . . . but when you stated, "drew you to repentance and His Spirit endwelled you" . . . I don't recognize this happening to me, . . . not in a way that I can KNOW for a fact.

Let me say that if everything Ive seen from your posts is accurate and sincere, that my guess is that you are going to come to a point of your own test of faith and when that happens you are going to look back over your walk and see what Im talking about...that it wasnt that you didnt have faith, but simply that your carnal nature (that we all still have) was simply trying to win a battle with your spiritual nature and that your faith was there all along. Sometimes our carnal nature deceives us because it is limited and doesnt comprehend the things of the Spirit.
My guess is that you will end up surprising yourself then and that you wont fall for the tricks of the carnal self again in that regard.
Just a hunch tho

Also, I'm not "running towards evil". I have MANY opportunities TO do just that, but choose not to. Just FYI

What I mean was man in general, not you individually day by day.
When man sinned we fell out of grace with God as a race. That was what I was referring to