[_ Old Earth _] A question in PM

[Barbarian]

A member asked me this as a follow-up to a request for a PM debate. Since I don't debate in PM, I'll bring it here:

Because, God made Eden and humans after the world was made. Since the Earth and the universe was made at the same time humans are over 10 billion years old, right?

The Bible doesn't say the Earth and the universe were made at the same time, nor does it say that the Earth and humans were made at the same time.

So, no.

 

[EricTheBaptist]

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,†and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,†and the darkness he called “night.†And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.†7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.†And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.†And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,†and the gathered waters he called “seas.†And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.†And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.†And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.†21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.†23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.†And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.â€

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.â€
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.†And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Read Chapter 1, and explain. Also explain where Evolution comes into play.

 

[Barbarian]

The Bible doesn't mention evolution or atoms. It's merely compatible with evolution and atoms.

There are many things that are true, that are not in the Bible.

The sky is not actually a big roof with windows in it to let water through from a reservoir above the sky. That's merely figurative language.

 

[EricTheBaptist]

The Bible doesn't mention evolution or atoms. It's merely compatible with evolution and atoms.

There are many things that are true, that are not in the Bible.

The sky is not actually a big roof with windows in it to let water through from a reservoir above the sky. That's merely figurative language.

Of course it isn't, it was made so people could understand it easily. My problem with Evolution, is that most Evolutionists take God out of the situation. It would almost seem like an Atheist worshiping God.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
The Bible doesn't mention evolution or atoms. It's merely compatible with evolution and atoms.

There are many things that are true, that are not in the Bible.

The sky is not actually a big roof with windows in it to let water through from a reservoir above the sky. That's merely figurative language.

Of course it isn't, it was made so people could understand it easily.

So why object to evolution, which isn't even contrary to the Bible?

My problem with Evolution, is that most Evolutionists take God out of the situation.

I notice most chemists do that, too. Never mention God in their research. I have noticed that plumbers never mention God when they repair my plumbing. I wonder why they take God out of the situation...

It would almost seem like an Atheist worshiping God.

Atheistic plumbing. Who'd have guessed? :eeeekkk

 

[EricTheBaptist]

Also Evolution would suggest God to be a bad creator. According to the Bible he made humans good and perfect. Why did it take God so many evolution's to finally get the right human? God said he made me and it was good, now you can't say that it took GOD like 30 attempts to finally get the right human. You can continue to discredit God as a good creator or you may see the wrong in it. That's not my choice.

Also, in response to an earlier point of yours. "The amount of people who deny Evolution is somewhere between the amount of people who still believe the world is flat, and the amount of people who don't believe the holocaust happened." My pastor brought up an interesting point on this "argument". "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

It would seem being one of the ignorant few is the best path to go by.

 

[Barbarian]

Also Evolution would suggest God to be a bad creator.

Nope. In fact, engineers have discovered that evolutionary processes work better than design for complex things. God knew best, after all.

According to the Bible he made humans good and perfect.

Doesn't say that.

Why did it take God so many evolution's to finally get the right human?

I have confidence that He chose the best way.

God said he made me and it was good, now you can't say that it took GOD like 30 attempts to finally get the right human.

Most pregnancies abort before the first month is over. You telling me these are mistakes by God?

You can continue to discredit God as a good creator or you may see the wrong in it. That's not my choice.

God isn't subject to your idea of what is right or not right. Let Him be God.

Also, in response to an earlier point of yours. "The amount of people who deny Evolution is somewhere between the amount of people who still believe the world is flat, and the amount of people who don't believe the holocaust happened." My pastor brought up an interesting point on this "argument". "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

By that argument, HIV doesn't cause AIDS, because a minority of people deny it. Something's wrong with that logic...

 

[EricTheBaptist]

Nope. In fact, engineers have discovered that evolutionary processes work better than design for complex things. God knew best, after all.
Prove it.


Doesn't say that.
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.â€
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.†And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.


I have confidence that He chose the best way.
I have confidence, and proof that he didn't do it with Evolution. Your statement is a subjective response.


Most pregnancies abort before the first month is over. You telling me these are mistakes by God?
If you can quote me saying that I'd be interested to hear it.


God isn't subject to your idea of what is right or not right. Let Him be God.
My idea comes from the Bible, as far as my knowledge goes he wouldn't let Man corrupt the Bible.


By that argument, HIV doesn't cause AIDS, because a minority of people deny it. Something's wrong with that logic...
I don't think you understood my point. The Creationists are keeping good with God's Word and there are very little of them. The Evolutionists aren't and there seems to be A LOT of them. Do you understand how this fits with the passage?

Also if you can explain how you interpreted six days, to be 4 billion years I'd be interested in listening. I don't see why God couldn't of done it in six days? Why do we haft to put Man's viewpoint on the subject? They're the one's who want to discredit God in any way possible.

 

[Barbarian]

Also if you can explain how you interpreted six days, to be 4 billion years I'd be interested in listening.

As St. Augustine noted, trying to force Genesis into a literal history produces logical inconsistencies like mornings and evenings with no sun to have them. So we know they aren't literally days. And the order of creation represents categories of God's creation.

I don't see why God couldn't of done it in six days?

Or any other length of time. A few billion years is what He elected to do.

Why do we haft to put Man's viewpoint on the subject?

Precisely. God has no need to regard time, so it doesn't matter how He did it.

 

[EricTheBaptist]

As St. Augustine noted, trying to force Genesis into a literal history produces logical inconsistencies like mornings and evenings with no sun to have them. So we know they aren't literally days. And the order of creation represents categories of God's creation.



Or any other length of time. A few billion years is what He elected to do.
Prove it.


Precisely. God has no need to regard time, so it doesn't matter how He did it.

Right, so it's six days. He would of said 4 billion years, I don't take him for an idiot.

 

[Barbarian]

Right, so it's six days. He would of said 4 billion years,

Unless He was telling a pre-technological people about it in terms that would explain His purposes, without making it a literal history.

I don't take him for an idiot.

All the more reason to reject the Young Earth revisionism. As the ancient Christians knew, a literal six-day creation could not be reconciled with Genesis.

 

[EricTheBaptist]

Unless He was telling a pre-technological people about it in terms that would explain His purposes, without making it a literal history.
Since we can't prove this, we're going to need to assume it is six days.


All the more reason to reject the Young Earth revisionism. As the ancient Christians knew, a literal six-day creation could not be reconciled with Genesis.

Old Earth "Creationism" is a relatively new chain of thought.

Also I would highly recommend you look into http://www.equip.org/hank_speaks_outs/theistic-evolution which is written by Hank Hanegraff. He's probably in the top 100 most intelligent people you'll ever read about, and his arguments for things are good ones.
http://www.equip.org/hank_speaks_outs/can-a-christian-believe-in-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution- Sure, if you want to defend the racist sexist who invented it.

 

[Barbarian]

Old Earth "Creationism" is a relatively new chain of thought.

YE creationism is a very modern doctrine, no older than the last century.

Also I would highly recommend you look into http://www.equip.org/hank_speaks_out...stic-evolution which is written by Hank Hanegraff. He's probably in the top 100 most intelligent people you'll ever read about, and his arguments for things are good ones.

What do you think is his most persuasive argument? Since he has this surprising misconception about the Bible:

Now of course the Bible says that living creatures produce according to their kinds

I wouldn't regard him as much of a theologian, either.

 

[EricTheBaptist]

YE creationism is a very modern doctrine, no older than the last century.



What do you think is his most persuasive argument? Since he has this surprising misconception about the Bible:

Now of course the Bible says that living creatures produce according to their kinds

I wouldn't regard him as much of a theologian, either.

The bottom line is this: an omnipotent, omniscient God does not have to painfully plod through millions of mistakes, misfits, and mutations in order to have fellowship with humans. He can create humans; indeed, He created humans in a microsecond. And yes, that statement of his is true. The Bible says that living creatures produce according to their kinds.

 

[Barbarian]

The bottom line is this: an omnipotent, omniscient God does not have to painfully plod through millions of mistakes, misfits, and mutations in order to have fellowship with humans.

Could have poofed us all into existence instantly. But He chose to do it another way. Not surprisingly, engineers have come to understand that evolution is more efficient than design for complex things. God knew best, after all.

He can create humans; indeed, He created humans in a microsecond. And yes, that statement of his is true.

It's not his statement. No such words in the Bible.

The Bible says that living creatures produce according to their kinds.

No, it doesn't. It says He created them according to their kinds. The problem is, you don't approve of the way He did it.

 

[EricTheBaptist]

Could have poofed us all into existence instantly. But He chose to do it another way. Not surprisingly, engineers have come to understand that evolution is more efficient than design for complex things. God knew best, after all.
Give me some evidence to prove this, and from respectable engineers.


It's not his statement. No such words in the Bible.
It's not exact, but the main concept remains.


No, it doesn't. It says He created them according to their kinds. The problem is, you don't approve of the way He did it.

Same wording much?

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Could have poofed us all into existence instantly. But He chose to do it another way. Not surprisingly, engineers have come to understand that evolution is more efficient than design for complex things. God knew best, after all.

Give me some evidence to prove this, and from respectable engineers.

Mohamed, F.A.; Koivo, H.N.;
Control Eng. Lab., Helsinki Univ. of Technol., Espoo

This paper appears in: Future Power Systems, 2005 International Conference on
Issue Date: 18-18 Nov. 2005
On page(s): 4 pp. - 5
Location: Amsterdam
Print ISBN: 90-78205-02-4
References Cited: 16
INSPEC Accession Number: 9072383
Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/FPS.2005.204326
Date of Current Version: 06 March 2006
Abstract

Speed control of power generation plants driven by diesel prime-movers is difficult because of the presence of a dead time and changes in parameters. This results in slow plant dynamics. In this paper, genetic algorithm self tuning PID controller based on indirect estimation of the dead time is proposed resulting in fast response at the startup and quick recovery, when a disturbance occurs. By using indirect estimation for the dead time and recursive least squares parameter estimation, an explicit estimate of the plant parameters and dead time is obtained. The algorithm is fast converging and stable. The estimated plant parameters and dead time are used in tuning the PID controller. The algorithm is robust with respect to variations in the engine dead time


And...

Evolutionary Algorithm as a Tool for Advanced
Designing of Diesel Engines
Teresa Donateo1, Domenico Laforgia1, Giovanni Aloisio2 and Silvia Mocavero2
1Research Center for Energy and Environment – University of Lecce
via per Monteroni - Lecce, Italy
{teresa.donateo, domenico.laforgia}@unile.it
2 CACT/ISUFI & NNL/INFM&CNR – University of Lecce,
via per Arnesano - Lecce, Italy
{giovanni.aloisio, silvia.mocavero}@unile
Abstract: An evolutionary algorithm has been developed for
the design of a diesel engine combustion chamber in order to
fulfill present day and future regulations about pollutant
emissions and greenhouse gases. The competitive goals to be
achieved in engine optimization are the reduction of emission
levels (soot, NOx and HC) and the improvement of specific fuel
consumption. They have been taken into account by using a
multi-objective approach implemented in an optimization tool
called HiPerGEO, which is characterized by a very small
population and a mechanism of reinizialization, combined with
an external memory to store non-dominated solutions.
The method was applied to the design of the combustion
chamber profile and numerical simulations were performed
with a modified version of the KIVA3V code to evaluate the
fitness values of the solutions. The chamber profile was defined
according to five geometrical parameters used as inputs to the
optimization method. The output of the simulations in terms of
emissions and IMEP were used to define four different
objective functions. The search for the optimum was performed
by applying the Pareto optimality criterion so that it is not
bounded to arbitrary weights assigned to each objective. At the
end of the simulation, the user can choose from the final Pareto
set the best compromise solution for different applications.


Barbarian observes:
It's not his statement. No such words in the Bible.

It's not exact, but the main concept remains.

No. It's not about reproduction at all. You know this.

No, it doesn't. It says He created them according to their kinds. The problem is, you don't approve of the way He did it.

Same wording much?

Creating different kinds (which includes evolution), is quite a bit different that claiming He created them to reproduce according to kind.

 

[EricTheBaptist]

Barbarian observes:
Could have poofed us all into existence instantly. But He chose to do it another way. Not surprisingly, engineers have come to understand that evolution is more efficient than design for complex things. God knew best, after all.



Mohamed, F.A.; Koivo, H.N.;
Control Eng. Lab., Helsinki Univ. of Technol., Espoo

This paper appears in: Future Power Systems, 2005 International Conference on
Issue Date: 18-18 Nov. 2005
On page(s): 4 pp. - 5
Location: Amsterdam
Print ISBN: 90-78205-02-4
References Cited: 16
INSPEC Accession Number: 9072383
Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/FPS.2005.204326
Date of Current Version: 06 March 2006
Abstract

Speed control of power generation plants driven by diesel prime-movers is difficult because of the presence of a dead time and changes in parameters. This results in slow plant dynamics. In this paper, genetic algorithm self tuning PID controller based on indirect estimation of the dead time is proposed resulting in fast response at the startup and quick recovery, when a disturbance occurs. By using indirect estimation for the dead time and recursive least squares parameter estimation, an explicit estimate of the plant parameters and dead time is obtained. The algorithm is fast converging and stable. The estimated plant parameters and dead time are used in tuning the PID controller. The algorithm is robust with respect to variations in the engine dead time


And...

Evolutionary Algorithm as a Tool for Advanced
Designing of Diesel Engines
Teresa Donateo1, Domenico Laforgia1, Giovanni Aloisio2 and Silvia Mocavero2
1Research Center for Energy and Environment – University of Lecce
via per Monteroni - Lecce, Italy
{teresa.donateo, domenico.laforgia}@unile.it
2 CACT/ISUFI & NNL/INFM&CNR – University of Lecce,
via per Arnesano - Lecce, Italy
{giovanni.aloisio, silvia.mocavero}@unile
Abstract: An evolutionary algorithm has been developed for
the design of a diesel engine combustion chamber in order to
fulfill present day and future regulations about pollutant
emissions and greenhouse gases. The competitive goals to be
achieved in engine optimization are the reduction of emission
levels (soot, NOx and HC) and the improvement of specific fuel
consumption. They have been taken into account by using a
multi-objective approach implemented in an optimization tool
called HiPerGEO, which is characterized by a very small
population and a mechanism of reinizialization, combined with
an external memory to store non-dominated solutions.
The method was applied to the design of the combustion
chamber profile and numerical simulations were performed
with a modified version of the KIVA3V code to evaluate the
fitness values of the solutions. The chamber profile was defined
according to five geometrical parameters used as inputs to the
optimization method. The output of the simulations in terms of
emissions and IMEP were used to define four different
objective functions. The search for the optimum was performed
by applying the Pareto optimality criterion so that it is not
bounded to arbitrary weights assigned to each objective. At the
end of the simulation, the user can choose from the final Pareto
set the best compromise solution for different applications.


So apparently, evolution in diesel engines is supposed to prove something?
Barbarian observes:
It's not his statement. No such words in the Bible.
Why does how long it took him matter? Regardless of what number Hank said, you still would of disagreed. God said he created humans, rather he did it in 3 billion years, a microsecond, a nanosecond, or a attosecond.


No. It's not about reproduction at all. You know this.

No, it doesn't. It says He created them according to their kinds. The problem is, you don't approve of the way He did it.
Don't put words in my mouth, if you can't see I don't believe in Evolution then your blind. I NEVER said I had a problem with the way he did it, I'm fighting for the reason he did it!


Creating different kinds (which includes evolution), is quite a bit different that claiming He created them to reproduce according to kind.

Let's see what the Bible says


1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,†and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,†and the darkness he called “night.†And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.†7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.†And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.†And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,†and the gathered waters he called “seas.†And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.†And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.†And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.†21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.†23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.†And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.â€

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.â€
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.†And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

 

[EricTheBaptist]

Also Exodus Chapter 20 verse 8

“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

So, I'm supposed to work for like 3 billion years and rest for 500 million years?

 

[Barbarian]

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds

Yep. Nothing about reproducing according to their kinds. And note that God agrees with scientists about how life was produced. It was brought forth by the earth.

And no, you don't have to do it exactly the way God did it. You rest on the seventh day as we know them today, not as God described them.