A Righteous World !

[beloved57]

2 Cor 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now false teachers abuse this scripture to teach that Christ died for everyone in the world, and that everyone in the world without exception has been reconciled to God or has an opportunity to be . However thats false teaching, and the truth is, this world, whom God was in Christ reconciling unto himself, God does not count, impute, or charge their sins unto them, which is non imputation, which is forgiveness of sins. How do we know this ? From other scripture, for instance Ps 32:1-2

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

You see, non imputation and sin forgiven go hand in hand. The world in 2 Cor 5:19 is an forgiven world. But thats not all, the forgiven world, where sin is not imputed is an world clothed with the imputed righteousness of Christ ! How do we know this ? Scripture supports scripture, so lets look at Rom 4:6-8


Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.



You see that ? The people whom God will not impute sin, like that world in 2 Cor 5:19, which constitutes their forgiveness, Paul enlightens us here that these same ones are them unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works !

So there you go, the world in 2 Cor 5:19 is a world of men and women whom God hath imputed righteousness without works ! So the world in 2 Cor 5:19 cant be all without exception, since some will remain unrighteous before God 1 Cor 6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

 

[beloved57]

The righteous world is the world Christ died for.

The reason why the righteous world in 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have its sins charged to it, non imputation, is because it would be unjust of God to do so since those sins of theirs have been imputed to Christ so that He would die for them. You see the wages of their sin was death Rom 6:23a, and thats the death Christ died for them due to their sins, and its the Gift of God Rom 6:23b.

Now as previously shown, the non imputation of sin corresponds with receiving imputed righteousness without works Rom 4:6-8, meaning without doing anything. You see those Christ died for were also made righteous in the sight of God passively by Christ's one obedience culminating in His death Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Now understand, for just as by the disobedience of the One Adam, many or all were made sinners, prior to having done any sin personally of themselves, So by the Obedience of the ONE MAN Christ, are many or all [for whom He represented] made Righteous prior to having done any good thing. That includes any act of faith or repenting or calling on the name of the Lord. It is also written in conjunction with this in the Prophet Isaiah Isa 53:11b

by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many[make righteous];[why] for he shall bear their iniquities.

Simply said, the many here or the all were made righteous, just, or justified because He bear their sins, which corresponds to by the obedience of one many/all shall be made righteous !

Folks, understand something that those who are blind to truth will not accept, everyone Christ died for is born as sinners into this world, but at the same time they have been made Righteous before God by Christ having bear their sins, they just dont know it, though in due time it will be revealed to them!

 

[JohnDB]

Impute
verb

1. represent (something, especially something undesirable) as being done, caused, or possessed by someone; attribute.
   "the crimes imputed to Richard"
   synonyms: attribute to, ascribe to, assign to, credit to;
   connect with, associate with
   "the worst of these mistakes have been unfairly imputed to him"
   • FINANCE
     assign (a value) to something by inference from the value of the products or processes to which it contributes.
     "recovering the initial outlay plus imputed interest"
   • THEOLOGY
     ascribe (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to someone by virtue of a similar quality in another.
     "Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us"

 

[smaller]

2 Cor 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now false teachers abuse this scripture to teach that Christ died for everyone in the world, and that everyone in the world without exception has been reconciled to God or has an opportunity to be .

Determinists who are worth their salt in understanding MUST presume "universal atonement" for mankind as well.

Why? Because determinists have no way of ascertaining who will be called into Christ and who will not. They must hold out the Gospel to ALL mankind. The call MUST go out to ALL mankind. There can be no logical barriers for the call to be universal to all mankind.

A determinist knows this principle. We can not, as determinists, make the determinations of who will hear and who will not. Who will have applications of atonement and who will not. We must therefore presume that the call is to ALL mankind, and from there it is God in Christ Alone who determines who hears, who does not. Who will receive His Mercy and who will be hardened against His Mercy. Romans 9:18 and receive none.

It's an overblown pointless dispute from the determinist camps to "insist" on a doctrine of limitations of atonement to mankind when the call of the Gospel itself demands the CALL to be made to ALL mankind. IF the call of the Gospel is universal to mankind (it IS!), then the potential of hearing, by Gods Own Determinations is also universal (IT IS!), as is then, the "potential" of atonement, at a minimum, universal to mankind, IF God So Wills it.

A determinist knows it's only Gods Own Will that Determines in any cases of applications.

Romans 10:
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

The call of the Gospel goes on to the end, to ALL mankind into all the earth, unto the ends of the world.

God in Christ Alone provides the "final analysis." No determinist can make the claim of limit because they are not the Determiner.

 

[JohnDB]

Determinists who are worth their salt in understanding MUST presume "universal atonement" for mankind as well.

Why? Because determinists have no way of ascertaining who will be called into Christ and who will not. They must hold out the Gospel to ALL mankind. The call MUST go out to ALL mankind. There can be no logical barriers for the call to be universal to all mankind.

A determinist knows this principle. We can not, as determinists, make the determinations of who will hear and who will not. Who will have applications of atonement and who will not. We must therefore presume that the call is to ALL mankind, and from there it is God in Christ Alone who determines who hears, who does not. Who will receive His Mercy and who will be hardened against His Mercy. Romans 9:18 and receive none.

It's an overblown pointless dispute from the determinist camps to "insist" on a doctrine of limitations of atonement to mankind when the call of the Gospel itself demands the CALL to be made to ALL mankind. IF the call of the Gospel is universal to mankind (it IS!), then the potential of hearing, by Gods Own Determinations is also universal (IT IS!), as is then, the "potential" of atonement, at a minimum, universal to mankind, IF God So Wills it.

A determinist knows it's only Gods Own Will that Determines in any cases of applications.

Romans 10:
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

The call of the Gospel goes on to the end, to ALL mankind into all the earth, unto the ends of the world.

God in Christ Alone provides the "final analysis." No determinist can make the claim of limit because they are not the Determiner.

By "determinist" are you referring to a person with a Pelagian viewpoint?

 

[smaller]

By "determinist" are you referring to a person with a Pelagian viewpoint?

Determinist is a generic term that covers a broad base of various Christian understandings among believers who know God Is Sovereign above all things. Minutiae of differences in understandings, notwithstanding.

Paul was undoubtedly a "determinist" of gigantic proportions, and counters claims made against this "determinist sight" of himself, here:

Romans 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Paul shows us in Romans 9, The Determining Will of God, above the will of any man. Which is why he answers to that question in Romans 9:19.

I reject Pelagian sight as untruthful to the scriptures i.e. a heresy. Pelagian sight would be a near opposite of a determinist.

 

[JohnDB]

From Wikipedia:

Theological determinism is a form ofdeterminism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a God, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It is also supported by proponents of Classical pantheism such as the Stoics and Baruch Spinoza.

Many Christians have opposed the view that humans do not have free will. Saint Thomas Aquinas, the medieval Roman Catholictheologian, believed strongly that humanity had free will. (However, though he desired to defend a doctrine of free will, he ultimately ended up espousing what today would be known as compatibilism, or "soft determinism.")[12] The Jesuits were among the leading opponents of this view, because they held that divine grace was actual, in the sense that grace is among other things participative, and that humans could freely benefit from grace by a mediation between their own imperfect wills and the infinite mercy of God.

 

[beloved57]

Impute
verb

1. represent (something, especially something undesirable) as being done, caused, or possessed by someone; attribute.
   "the crimes imputed to Richard"
   synonyms: attribute to, ascribe to, assign to, credit to;
   connect with, associate with
   "the worst of these mistakes have been unfairly imputed to him"
   • FINANCE
     assign (a value) to something by inference from the value of the products or processes to which it contributes.
     "recovering the initial outlay plus imputed interest"
   • THEOLOGY
     ascribe (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to someone by virtue of a similar quality in another.
     "Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us"

Do you want to discuss the points I made ?

 

[JohnDB]

Do you want to discuss the points I made ?

I made the points I wished to.
I sought clarification of some of the terms that you had used so that others could clearly understand what you were saying.

Of course you know how few people often agree with your points of view and especially which ones of this forum disagree or agree.

But by posting a few well chosen definitions I have shortened the hashing out of positions and made my job (and others of the team) a bit easier for the Holidays.

But...
The story of the Man Born Blind in John's Gospel speaks directly to this subject when viewed from the understanding that "Who Sinned?" Was the central focus of a theological debate which was viewed in polar fashion as Pelagian vx Determinism is. (Also included Calvinism vx Arminianism)

But the reaction of the theology Sanhedrin is telling. They ignored the meaning of the miracle for trying to uphold their theological positions.

 

[ezra]

i can say with out a doubt Christ paid the price on the cross for our sins.. yes even while we were sinners rejecting Christ . i believe in full atonement. the only thing we can do for the lost is 1. pray 2. find some way to plant a seed. the rest is out of our control . some that feel or say they are saved. i worry they truly are as i was preaching one sunday morning a lady came back in after services was over,, stated to me i don't know if i am saved . so i asked her if she would like to know she said yes. i called on the Church to gather with her and pray. one member led her in a prayer. to some degree i am opposed to this for this reason.. i have seen several repeat after me be declared saved. to never return again
so when it comes to saying one is saved in most cases their fruits will show . i really could care less what the Calvinism vx Arminianism has to say on being saved. i go by what the word says

 

[ezra]

Do you want to discuss the points I made ?

so do you post in carm forum also? if i so it will be after Christmas before i get back suspended for telling theo we are truly winners . of course i posted this 3 times after it was removed. lol then sent reply back to the mod told them to study the Bible :amen

 

[th1b.taylor]

What Ezra siad, over and over. Ezra, it's good to know I'm not the only one forums ban for standing with God, it give me hope!

 

[beloved57]

jim

I made the points I wished to.

I want to discuss my points made, thats why I started the discussion ! Did you understand the points I made with scripture ? If you did, please provide proof of that ! Thanks

 

[beloved57]

so do you post in carm forum also? if i so it will be after Christmas before i get back suspended for telling theo we are truly winners . of course i posted this 3 times after it was removed. lol then sent reply back to the mod told them to study the Bible :amen

Im not here to discuss what forums I post in. So do you want to discuss the OP or not ?

 

[JohnDB]

jim



I want to discuss my points made, thats why I started the discussion ! Did you understand the points I made with scripture ? If you did, please provide proof of that ! Thanks

Firstly,
My name is John...(DB) and not Jim. I am a moderator of this particular forum...have been since last spring.

Secondly,
And where I can understand your confusion I did use several chapters of the Gospel of John to refute this millennia old debate. Please refer to my previous post about the "man born blind" in John's Gospel.

Thirdly,
I explained how I expected your confusion to what I explained.

 

[Jim Parker]

Now false teachers abuse this scripture to teach that Christ died for everyone in the world, and that everyone in the world without exception has been reconciled to God or has an opportunity to be .

Do you mean "false" teachers like the apostle John who said: " And He (Jesus) Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."? (1 John 2:2 NKJV)

Folks, understand something that those who are blind to truth will not accept, everyone Christ died for is born as sinners into this world, but at the same time they have been made Righteous before God by Christ having bear their sins, they just dont know it, though in due time it will be revealed to them!

(1) Everyone for whom Christ died is all of mankind; everyone.
(2) Eternal life is a gift which God offers to everyone who will repent and believe the Gospel.
(3) Not everyone want's to repent but whoever will do so will have eternal life.
Jhn 3:14-21 (NKJV)
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

 

[ezra]

Im not here to discuss what forums I post in. So do you want to discuss the OP or not ?

done did and yes you are the same beloved 57

 

[ezra]

Im not here to discuss what forums I post in. So do you want to discuss the OP or not ?

tell ya what you post what your point is and i will see what i might need to add

 

[beloved57]

Firstly,
My name is John...(DB) and not Jim. I am a moderator of this particular forum...have been since last spring.

Secondly,
And where I can understand your confusion I did use several chapters of the Gospel of John to refute this millennia old debate. Please refer to my previous post about the "man born blind" in John's Gospel.

Thirdly,
I explained how I expected your confusion to what I explained.

Okay John. I am looking for persons who want to discuss the points I made. Thanks !

 

[beloved57]

Determinists who are worth their salt in understanding MUST presume "universal atonement" for mankind as well.

Why? Because determinists have no way of ascertaining who will be called into Christ and who will not. They must hold out the Gospel to ALL mankind. The call MUST go out to ALL mankind. There can be no logical barriers for the call to be universal to all mankind.

A determinist knows this principle. We can not, as determinists, make the determinations of who will hear and who will not. Who will have applications of atonement and who will not. We must therefore presume that the call is to ALL mankind, and from there it is God in Christ Alone who determines who hears, who does not. Who will receive His Mercy and who will be hardened against His Mercy. Romans 9:18 and receive none.

It's an overblown pointless dispute from the determinist camps to "insist" on a doctrine of limitations of atonement to mankind when the call of the Gospel itself demands the CALL to be made to ALL mankind. IF the call of the Gospel is universal to mankind (it IS!), then the potential of hearing, by Gods Own Determinations is also universal (IT IS!), as is then, the "potential" of atonement, at a minimum, universal to mankind, IF God So Wills it.

A determinist knows it's only Gods Own Will that Determines in any cases of applications.

Romans 10:
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

The call of the Gospel goes on to the end, to ALL mankind into all the earth, unto the ends of the world.

God in Christ Alone provides the "final analysis." No determinist can make the claim of limit because they are not the Determiner.

Huh ? Do you want to discuss the points I made ? Isnt this a discussion board to debate or discuss the points made ?