A Saviour unto Israel ?

[savedbygrace57]

acts 13:

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

This was not peter here, but paul, the apostle unto the gentiles, who makes this very important statement, and sheds much light upon for whom Jesus christ came to save as according to promise..

Another important scripture that lends to the truth of this is lk 1:


68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, [see matt 1 21]

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70As he spake [or promised] by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

This promise of redemption of His people, as the Lord God of Israel, hath been revealed and promised since the world began..

This takes us back to the first proclamation of the promised salvation or redemption to gen 3:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

This seed of the women would be Israel [christ and his people]..and the which, salvations first promise is to and for this seed Israel, the seed of the women..

This is some what typed out or signified in rev 12:


1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. [the birth of Jesus christ]

This women had also a seed as we see later in this chpt 12 of rev:

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. [ so christ and his members are the seed of the women gal 3 16]

So salvation and redemption from the conception of the world, had only a particular seed in view, which later became known as Israel..

But now, its important to understand, that the Israel paul is referring to in acts 13 23..is not israel according to the flesh..but Israel according to promise..

Lets show here how paul discerned another Israel other than national Israel rom 9:

Not as though the word [or promise] of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel [acts 13:23,] which are of Israel [nationally]:

You see, the promises of redemption and salvation as stated in lk 68-70, to the people of God, the God of Israel, the promise was not to national israel..but a spiritual remnant within that nation, and as we will find out, a spiritual remant among the nations of the world, which constituted Israel,[rom 11] the one paul preached in acts 13:

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Now paul had the Israel of God [rom 9:6] in view when he made this statement in the above..

Now get this next point, for its tricky, but nevertheless its extremely important because of the symmerty and anology of scripture.

The difference between what paul preached here in acts 13 23 and what peter taught here in acts 5:

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

The difference is this..for peter was correct in that Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God to give repentance to a certain chosen people Israel..but what peter did not know but what paul did know..is this:

That Israel was no longer viewed as a mere physical ethnic nation, but that israel was comprised of gentiles as well, who became israel..

Notice..eph 2:

12That at that time ye [gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

They [gentiles] are now no more strangers and aliens, but fellowcitizens [of Israel Gods chosen people] and so now they too have the same right to be called Israel,

in fact, even more of a right than the non elect jews of that nation..because the israel of God was never non elect Jews, but elect jews like jacob over easu or Isaach over ishmael..children of promise..

So salvation and redemption has always been limited unto Israel as a people, but the mystery that was not clearly unveiled since the world began [gen 3 15]

eph 3:


3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: [lk 1 68-70]

In that Israel was made up of Gentiles too.. Yes thats the unveiling in more detail by paul of this mystery..[Israel of God was never a physical nation but a spiritual people rom 2]

but nevertheless, true to promise, salvation and redemption is and has always been limited to a chosen people [Israel]..not limited to a certain geogrpaphical location as national israel in the middle east or a certain ethical people [respect of persons], but the scope of this Israel of God is world wide..but nevertheless its only to the world of Gods Israel, all others, are blinded..

You know how paul says in rom 9 6

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

So likewise, they are not all the world [for whom christ died] which are of the world [the inhabited earth]

Just like there was an Israel within israel that God had a respect and favor too, likewise there is a world within the world that God has a special regard too, and that world is the Israel of God, the spiritual seed of abraham..

 

[Joe67]

Nine apostles were not taken upon the mount of transfiguration.

Without a vision the people perish. The nine did not receive the vision upon the mountain, which later Peter called it the holy mountain, and compared this vision to the coming of the Lord.

The nine were arguing among themselves as to who was greatest and could not cast out the demon in the boy. They could not cast out one who was of the same quality as themselves. So the demon had control of the situation and the nine disciples were powerless, i.e., they were perishing under the influence of the demon.

Prayer to the Lord and doing without that which increased their quarrelsome disposition (fasting) would have been the means for the Spirit of Jesus to have been in their bosoms and to have given them unity of disposition through deference toward each other, and the demon would have come out in Jesus' name. The demon had greater knowledge than the nine disciples, but an unselfish disposition would have prevailed in the name and commission of Jesus.

Historical context, dogmatic perfection of doctrine was not enough. They are foundational. (They had declared that they had found the One whom the Scriptures foretold. Nathaniel had said that Jesus was the King of Israel. These are good and necessary, but they are not the ultimate need.)

They needed the disposition of Jesus to cast out the disposition of the demon through the authority of Jesus.

Acts 13:22-23
he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: KJV

Heart/disposition is the ultimate authority in the name of Jesus that God, the Father, gave to his holy child when he raised him from the dead and set him at his right hand above all principalities and powers in this life and the life to come; world without end. Jesus has given his servants gifts. These gifts working through Jesus' heart/disposition in them makes them effectual in delivering the lost sheep of the house of Israel from the prison house of Mt. Sinai's God-given bondage.

When you are an animal in your thoughts, then you need a school master to train you and to keep you penned in a geographical area, to prepare you to hear the voice of God. The bondage of Mt. Sinai is such a school master. We should not bring a railing accusation against the school master and his means of mental training and bodily control/bondage. God gave him this authority.

Jesus' God-given authority through disposition is greater than the school master. The school master does not want to be put out of his stewardship. He will not leave happily. But at the gentle word of Jesus, the school master always has to go and his captives are set free from the prison house, in their hearts and minds.

Wherever the disposition of Jesus lives, that is where Israel is/lives. Wherever the disposition of Jesus lives, there is salvation.

Joe

 

[glorydaz]

The gentiles were always included in the promise...from the beginning.

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

To the Jew first, as a light to the Gentiles.... was the promise given.

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

God commanded all men every where to repent...not just the Jews.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[veteran]

One cannot dwell on Rom.9 where Apostle Paul said "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel", and then just leave out a whole lot other Bible Scripture which puts God's Salvation Plan for national Israel into proper perspective.

Paul did not stop with the teaching about Salvation through Christ Jesus involving the seed of Israel and Gentiles after Romans 9, he continued that subject through Romans 10 and 11. And in Romans 11 he said all Israel will be saved, quoting from Old Testament Scripture like Isaiah 11. A study in Isaiah 11 shows about a gathering of the lineage seed of Israel under Christ Jesus in final. Paul was pointing to a definite National structure for the seed of Israel in that.

The term "spiritual Israel" is not specifically written in God's Word. It is an idea that does exist though, as that's an idea Apostle Paul taught in Romans 9. But it in no way conflicts with God's Plan of Salvation through Christ involving a National structure of Israel for the remnant seed according to the election of grace in Rom.11:1-5.

In other words, when Paul mentioned in Ephesians 2 about Gentile believers being made nigh to the "covenants of promise", and becoming joined to the "commonwealth of Israel", he meant that commonwealth of Israel as a literal thing manifested on earth, which is a National structure for the believing remnant of the seed of Israel according to God's promises to Israel of old.

Many of my Christian brethren seem to forget that when Jacob and his children were in bondage in Egypt, they were then called the children of Israel, even before they were led to the lands of Canaan to establish a literal nation called Israel. Thus a National structure of Israel can still exist on earth, without a specific nation label, unlike the nation state in the holy land called Israel.

In Gen.48, a prophecy was given through Jacob, to his grandchildren Ephraim and Manasseh, born of his son Joseph while in Egypt. To Ephraim was promised that his seed (flesh seed) would become "a multitude of nations". That's not about the Rom.9 spiritual seed concept, it's about literal seed descendents of Ephraim. Even one of flesh Ephraim would become the first king over the ten tribes of Israel per 1 Kings 11 forward, and his name was Jeroboam.

Per 1 Chronicles 5, God's Birthright wound up going to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. And that's the specific "covenants of promise" and "commonwealth of Israel" Paul was talking about in Ephesians 2. That national structure, with Ephraim as head, was to exist on earth as a literal "multitude of nations". And that's what all believing Gentiles have become joined with national Israel under, through Christ Jesus, and are to become one people under Christ's Salvation.

Apostle Paul knew of that national structure very well, since he was a scholar of the Old Testament. That national structure of Israel is manifested on earth today, and even began to be established literally in the West after Christ's Gospel was first preached in the areas of Asia Minor and western Europe. It is not by chance that the first Christian nations became established in the Western hemisphere. That is the "multitude of nations" per the prophecy. And even many Gentiles and Jews dwell within it that still refuse Christ Jesus, while many peoples of all nations outside it do believe on Christ, and are part of it, even though they dwell in other lands. But even non-believers have been blessed just by dwelling among it.

So the idea Paul taught in Romans 9 will not, and never has, ended God's literal promises to the seed of Israel about them always having a National structure on earth, even forever. The confusion is how many simply cannot see with their eyes how God has kept His promises to the seed of Israel about that National structure, with it being on earth somehwere else other than the holy land temporarily, while not specifically known as Israel to the rest of the world.

In the future, that National structure will be established back to the holy land when Christ does return, and the seed lineage of Israel will be gathered back to the the original lands of inheritance promised to their OT fathers, with believing Gentiles gathered with them. So as long as the Christian nations are established in the lands on earth where they are today, that's a major sign that Christ's return and the gathering to Him has yet to occur. Christ's Salvation involves real substance involving an establishing on this earth. And in final, it will exist in the original lands promised to Israel.
.

 

[savedbygrace57]

veteran says:

One cannot dwell on Rom.9 where Apostle Paul said "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel",

One cannot minimize this either, for paul was knowledgable of the ot scriptures and the nation of Israel..so what he says here is very important..

 

[savedbygrace57]

vet says:

The term "spiritual Israel" is not specifically written in God's Word

but its not specifically denied either, but certainly implied :

rom 2:

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You dont want to accept Gods definition of a jew, or an israelite, but you cleave to mans definition, not good..

Those born in national Israel only, are not the children of God rom 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

But the children of God are gal 3:

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Those who are of the Faith of christ are Israel..

The gentiles too who were children of promise, they too are the children of God jnn 11:

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Thats why both Jews and gentiles who are one with christ, are the commonwelth of Israel..

eph 2:

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Not Israel the nation, but Israel the people, which were within the nation..but even all the jews in the nation were not of the commonwelth of Israel, the Israel of God..and they would be later broken off, so the gentiles could be graffed in..

 

[glorydaz]

The Israel of God is the "new creature"...the born again believer.

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Israel of God is the "new creature"...the born again believer.

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Thats correct, thats who Jesus is a saviour too..acts 13:

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Gods promise is to save all israel of God, not all humanity..but a chosen people out of humanity ..

rev 5:

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

[glorydaz]

The Israel of God is the "new creature"...the born again believer.

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Thats correct, thats who Jesus is a saviour too..acts 13:

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Gods promise is to save all israel of God, not all humanity..but a chosen people out of humanity ..

True, not all of humanity will be saved....but Jesus did die for the sins of the whole world, that all men might have ACCESS to eternal life.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He died for the ungodly...

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

At the cross, Jesus destroyed him who has the power of death.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

He redeemed man from the curse of the law...becoming sin for all men that they might have access to the tree of life.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[veteran]

Rom 9:7-13
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Can't just stop right there and create a false tradition that omits what The Bible says about the promises going to Israel. Abraham had 'seed' other than his son Isaac, like Ishmael. Yet the Promise was to continue through Isaac, not Ishmael. Paul's not just talking about a spiritual seed, he's declaring how the Promise continued through a literal seed, that of Abraham's genealogical son Isaac...

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
(KJV)

Not only in Isaac, but the Promise was to continue through his son Jacob also. In Malachi 1 is where God said that about Jacob and Esau. Jacob was chosen by God over Esau even before either child was yet born.

And what was the new name God gave to Jacob? Israel.

That Salvation Promise by Faith first given through Abraham, then continued through Jacob's sons, the twelve tribes of Israel. When those of Israel during Christ's birth declared how God had sent them The Savior, the prophesied Redeemer of Israel, they were recognizing the Promise they had known about since Abraham. It was part of their inheritance from God. Even then Israel didn't know it would one day include believing Gentiles. Even Peter didn't understand until God sent him to preach to the Gentiles (Acts 10).

That doesn't show God took the Promise away from Israel at all. In Romans 11 Paul continues the subject, showing God has not cast away His people of Israel which He did foreknow. Paul even warned the Gentile believers about their own conceit in God's Plan of Salvation when they get puffed up against Israel, because Israel will be saved also.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vet :

Rom 9:7-13
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The children of the flesh, that is, those jews who are jews merely by birth naturally, they are not the children of God, God has no promises for such..

Jesus too makes a distinction, He admits by nature that jews were children of abraham, right here:

jn 8:

37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

But then He says this:

39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

You see that ? Jesus said, if ye were abrahams children [offspring] ye would do the works of abraham.

So right here Jesus does not see these jews as being connected with abraham and the promises..He is saying the same thing, though under different circumstances, as paul is in rom 9 : 6-8

And Jesus adds the deminsion that these jews he spake with, not only did not have God as their Father per Jn 8:

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jesus tells them who their Father really is:

Jn 8:

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do

Now, you tell me, what promises does God have for the devils children ? No matter what race they are, God does not promise the devils children nothing but hell..

Matt 23:

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

True, not all of humanity will be saved....

Thats right, God promised to save Israel, I just showed you scripture acts 13:

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Jesus is promised only to save His People from their sins Matt 1:

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people [Israel]from their sins.

 

[glorydaz]

glory:

True, not all of humanity will be saved....

Thats right, God promised to save Israel, I just showed you scripture acts 13:

23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Jesus is promised only to save His People from their sins Matt 1:

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people [Israel]from their sins.

Our disagreement isn't over who God saves, or to whom the promise is given.
Since that's what this thread is about, I'll leave it there.

It's only when you suggest the "whole world" means Israel or the elect that we'll be at odds.

 

[veteran]

vet :

Rom 9:7-13
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The children of the flesh, that is, those jews who are jews merely by birth naturally, they are not the children of God, God has no promises for such..

Jesus too makes a distinction, He admits by nature that jews were children of abraham, right here:

jn 8:

37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

But then He says this:

39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

You see that ? Jesus said, if ye were abrahams children [offspring] ye would do the works of abraham.

So right here Jesus does not see these jews as being connected with abraham and the promises..He is saying the same thing, though under different circumstances, as paul is in rom 9 : 6-8

And Jesus adds the deminsion that these jews he spake with, not only did not have God as their Father per Jn 8:

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jesus tells them who their Father really is:

Jn 8:

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do

Now, you tell me, what promises does God have for the devils children ? No matter what race they are, God does not promise the devils children nothing but hell..

Matt 23:

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

If you had realized what our Lord Jesus meant with His statement to those like...

John 8:44
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(KJV)

Then you should have recognized who the very first murderer was. Our Lord was showing us the identity of a group of "crept in unawares" (Jude), those who say they are Jews, but do lie and are not, but are the "synagogue of Satan". (Don't forget our Lord's parable of the tares in the field.)

 

[veteran]

The Israel of God is the "new creature"...the born again believer.

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Yep! Definitely agree with that.

And the Promise being first given to the children of Israel, and seeing there's a remnant of Israel that has always believed, even in OT times, means what? That they are not now Israelites nor of that "Israel of God"? God forbid, no.

Paul also shows by that Galatians Scripture how believing Gentiles cannot just try to form their OWN system for Salvation, i.e., they must recognize the Plan God has had for His Israel all along (Paul was even more specific about that in Romans 11). And of course I'm not talking about non-believing Jews that refuse The Savior Jesus Christ.

Further, many of my Christian brethren today fail to recognize how God kept His promises to the remnant of Israel that did believe on Christ Jesus. One should know just by their belief on Christ Jesus, that has nothing to do with unbelieving Jews in the past, nor today.

Too much of the junk lie that only Jews are literal seed of Israel today has been drilled into the heads of my Christian brethren. Don't forget about the ten tribes of Israel which never used that title of Jew.

 

[Ret]

Rom 9:7-13
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Can't just stop right there and create a false tradition that omits what The Bible says about the promises going to Israel. Abraham had 'seed' other than his son Isaac, like Ishmael. Yet the Promise was to continue through Isaac, not Ishmael. Paul's not just talking about a spiritual seed, he's declaring how the Promise continued through a literal seed, that of Abraham's genealogical son Isaac...

Apostle John was given to bring forth 4 different ways people understand God....

• John 1:12-13
  12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to
  become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
  
  13 Which were born,
  ..........not of blood,
  ..........nor of the will of the flesh,
  ..........nor of the will of man,
  ..........but of God. KJV

To be BORN 'of blood', natural human descent...does not make anyone 'ISRAEL'

To be BORN 'of the will of the flesh', human decision...does not make anyone 'ISRAEL'

To be BORN 'of the will of man', be it nationality or religious organization...does not make anyone 'ISRAEL'

ISRAEL, the SONS of GOD...are those that BELIEVE on HIS NAME!

 

[veteran]

In other words, God cannot influence ANYONE'S choice to either believe or not believe on His Saviour Jesus Christ?

What about Abraham then? And all the OT Patriarchs and prophets? What about Apostle Paul, who at the time of his conversion by Christ had a letter of authority from the Jews to hunt down Christians?

What of Romans 9, where Paul repeated what God said in Malachi 1 that He loved Jacob, but hated Esau, even before either child was born, nor having chance to do good or evil? If one hasn't realized about that, how can an unborn child make their choice to believe or not believe?

In Romans 11:1-5, when Paul said God has not cast away His people which He foreknew, and Paul repeated what God said to Elijah in 1 Kings 19, that He had reserved unto Himself seven thousand that had not bowed the knee to Baal, how is that not about the idea of God having predestinated a group of elect?

Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
(KJV)

Apostle Paul's conversion to Christ is one of the biggest problems for those who deny God's order of a predestinated elect servants, for Christ appeared to Saul (Paul), struck him down even, influencing his decision to believe or not believe. How many of you here were struck down 'personally' by our Lord Jesus Christ appearing to you and converting you to Him directly?

This is also what Paul was saying about the idea of election involving Israel...

Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(KJV)

 

[savedbygrace57]

Now Israel and the children of abraham are the same, and it was for the children of abraham that Jesus christ identified himself with heb 2:

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

This clearly means that He did not come to die for all mankind, for all mankind are not of the seed of abraham, and this is not talking about ethnic jews either, but children of promise..

 

[glorydaz]

Now Israel and the children of abraham are the same, and it was for the children of abraham that Jesus christ identified himself with heb 2:

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

This clearly means that He did not come to die for all mankind, for all mankind are not of the seed of abraham, and this is not talking about ethnic jews either, but children of promise..

You're really reaching now, but thank you for leading me to a new verse to prove He died for every man.

Christ is the seed of Abraham, but...

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jesus came to redeem His brethern..Heb 2:

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.



17.Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

This does not apply to the devils children..