A Saviour unto Israel ?

[glorydaz]

Jesus came to redeem His brethern..Heb 2:
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 17.Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

This does not apply to the devils children..

I love it when you take me back to Hebrews.
Now I get to use the last verse you found for me and another one I'd forgotten.
By the grace of God, Jesus should "taste death for every man."
Grace, the MERCY of God is offered to humankind...not just a few.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

That, through death, He might destroy him who had the power of death....and deliver those under bondage. By His blood, Jesus opened the prison doors and set the captives free. Man is now able to be free from the bondage of sin and death...he can reach out to our great Savior and enter into eternal life. Some don't....They're free to choose whom they want to serve. They now have free access to God because mankind has been reconciled to God by the blood of the Lamb.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

 

[glorydaz]

Apostle Paul's conversion to Christ is one of the biggest problems for those who deny God's order of a predestinated elect servants, for Christ appeared to Saul (Paul), struck him down even, influencing his decision to believe or not believe. How many of you here were struck down 'personally' by our Lord Jesus Christ appearing to you and converting you to Him directly?

I'd venture to say lots of folks were struck down right in the midst of a whole bunch of sin.
I about got the sails knocked out of me when got saved. I wasn't expecting it, it was right out of the blue, I felt like the sun coming out on a cloudy day. I went to my knees and I met the Lord.

This is also what Paul was saying about the idea of election involving Israel...

Rom 11:25-29
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

And the Deliverer came...All the Israel of God will be saved.

Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[quote="1 John 2:2":2i3fo7ys]And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
The Pharisees were the enemies of the faithful...as touching the election (the saved remnant) they are beloved.
(KJV)

[/quote:2i3fo7ys]
This Prophecy was fulfilled with the Messiah. The Redeemer would come to Zion and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob.
All Israel, those wearing the helmet of salvation (Israel of God) will be saved...

16And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. 17For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak. 18According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. 19So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. 20And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. 21As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory says:

I

love it when you take me back to Hebrews.
Now I get to use the last verse you found for me and another one I'd forgotten.
By the grace of God, Jesus should "taste death for every man."

meaning every Son, the word man is not in the orginal..

heb 2:

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Many today use this verse of scripture to teach that Jesus christ died for every single person in the world, that is he tasted death for all who ever lived.

But is this what this scripture teaches ? What does the word taste mean ?



1) to taste, to try the flavour of
2) to taste
a) i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
b) to feel, make trial of, experience
3) to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat

I dont believe taste here is describing his passion or suffering , or shedding of his blood. I think that is expressed clearly in earlier portion of the verse
Quote:
who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death

Therefore why the repetition ? Hence a better reading of this most misused verse would be..

That christ has savoured death for every man , that is death has lost its sting , saints Gods covenant people no longer need fear death..as in heb 2


14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

So instead of this being a verse that is misapplied to teach universal atonement..it is actually a verse to minister comfort to the covenant children..The Sons many heb 2:

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


1 thess 4:

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

So glory, you really dont understand hebrews, so why be so glad i went there ? lol..

 

[glorydaz]

glory says:

I love it when you take me back to Hebrews.
Now I get to use the last verse you found for me and another one I'd forgotten.
By the grace of God, Jesus should "taste death for every man."

meaning every Son, the word man is not in the orginal..
You'll have to forgive me if I don't take your word for that.
I suppose you claim it wasn't in...
john 1:29 (world), john 12:32 (all men), 1 Tim. 2:6 (ransom for all), 1 John 2:2 (whole world)
heb 2:
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Many today use this verse of scripture to teach that Jesus christ died for every single person in the world, that is he tasted death for all who ever lived.

But is this what this scripture teaches ? What does the word taste mean ?
Oops, you forgot the right one...experience.
1) to taste, to try the flavour of
2) to taste
a) i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
b) to feel, make trial of, experience
3) to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat

I dont believe taste here is describing his passion or suffering , or shedding of his blood. I think that is expressed clearly in earlier portion of the verse
Quote:
who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death

Therefore why the repetition ? Hence a better reading of this most misused verse would be..

That christ has savoured death for every man , that is death has lost its sting , saints Gods covenant people no longer need fear death..as in heb 2

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

So instead of this being a verse that is misapplied to teach universal atonement..it is actually a verse to minister comfort to the covenant children..The Sons many heb 2:

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

1 thess 4:
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

So glory, you really dont understand hebrews, so why be so glad i went there ? lol..

No, no, no......Christ did not "savour" death, and your verses do not support that claim.
He experienced death, and it wasn't pleasant...he really did die.
Were the diciples standing there just going to "savour" death, too?
What would be the purpose of their "savouring" death?

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

They weren't talking "savouring" death here, either. They're talking "dead".

Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Now, there's nothing wrong with the verses you posted, but they do not speak to the point you're trying to make. Why do you insist on belittling Christ's work on the cross?

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory says:

No, no, no......Christ did not "savour" death,

Yes He did, because of what Jesus christ did for elect sinners, it is written:

ps 116:15

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

And for the saved, the saint, this applies ecc 7:1

A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

This would not be true if the lamb slain from the foundation had not tasted death..and destroyed him that had the power of death, the devil..heb 2:14


Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

In addition, heb 2 9 does teach that Jesus christ tasted death for every Son, and because of that, the every Sons will never see death, eternally, but are being led to Glory heb 2:

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

This excludes the children of the devil, the serpents seed, for they are not Gods Sons..

 

[glorydaz]

glory says:

No, no, no......Christ did not "savour" death,

Yes He did, because of what Jesus christ did for elect sinners, it is written:

ps 116:15

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

And for the saved, the saint, this applies ecc 7:1

A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

This would not be true if the lamb slain from the foundation had not tasted death..and destroyed him that had the power of death, the devil..heb 2:14


Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

In addition, heb 2 9 does teach that Jesus christ tasted death for every Son, and because of that, the every Sons will never see death, eternally, but are being led to Glory heb 2:

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

This excludes the children of the devil, the serpents seed, for they are not Gods Sons..

He did die for all men, tearing apart the veil and reconciling mankind to God.
They now have access to God because of the cross.
That means that Jesus tasted (experienced) death for all MEN (not sons), destroying satan's power to hold men in the bodage of sin. Jesus set the captives free (mankind), so they could enter into eternal life if they repented and believed.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory says:

He did die for all men,

No He did not, He died for His church, all the sheep, not the goats, the devils children..you may as well say He died for the devil, if you insist he died for the devils seed, for they are one in Gods sight..

 

[glorydaz]

glory says:

He did die for all men,

No He did not, He died for His church, all the sheep, not the goats, the devils children..you may as well say He died for the devil, if you insist he died for the devils seed, for they are one in Gods sight..

Let me drag out my sword....again.
Let's use the KJV...not the savedbygrace version, shall we?

Not for ours only...but also for the sins of the whole world.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He gave Himself a ransom for ALL.

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

He will draw all men.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Why call men to repent if Christ didn't die for all men?
That would be like offering a baby some candy and then jerking it away.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[savedbygrace57]

All those verses applie to the elect, the church..

 

[glorydaz]

All those verses applie to the elect, the church..

Not for ours only...but also for the sins of the whole world.
Read the Word carefully, and you won't be so apt to make so many errors.

1 John 2:2 wrote:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory says:

Not for ours only...but also for the sins of the whole world.

Yep, not only those he was writing to, but to gentiles as well..and for all the sheep of all time since the beginning of the world..

 

[glorydaz]

glory says:

Not for ours only...but also for the sins of the whole world.

Yep, not only those he was writing to, but to gentiles as well..and for all the sheep of all time since the beginning of the world..

There is only Jew or Gentile.
They comprise the world.

Some Jews will be saved and some Gentiles will be saved.

But Christ died for humankind. All men every where.
He reconciled mankind to God. Man can now have access to God because of the work of the cross.

We are saved by grace through faith.
We are justified by our faith in Jesus and His work on the cross.

It's a simple message, but it must be left exactly as the Bible tells us...not interpreted to suit a particular doctrine. That is changing the Word of God, and can not be allowed to go unanswered.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

But Christ died for humankind. All men every where.

He died for all His elect everywhere..

 

[glorydaz]

glory:

But Christ died for humankind. All men every where.

He died for all His elect everywhere..

I'm afraid you're just a broken record.
I can see it's pointless responding to your posts.
Can't say I didn't try. :dunno

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

But Christ died for humankind. All men every where.

He died for all His elect everywhere..

I'm afraid you're just a broken record.
I can see it's pointless responding to your posts.
Can't say I didn't try. :dunno

You responded true enough, but not with understanding the truth..

 

[savedbygrace57]

A Saviour to Israel, for Jesus christ is Gods Israel:

The True Israel of God is really Jesus christ..There are scriptures that indicate this i.e Isa 49:

1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

Jesus christ was the antitype of Jacob or Israel, being the Head and represenitive of the whole Israel of God, which is His body, the church.

The prophecy in hosea indicates that Jesus christ is Gods Son Israel
hos 11:

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Now see how the Holy Spirit applies this too Jesus in matt 2:15

And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

So Israel is all those who are in Union with Gods Son Israel..for they were chosen in Him

eph 1:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Son of Israel]

A VERY ENLIGHTENED MAN YOU ARE SAVEDBYGRACE. Excellent post!
You have perfect understanding of scriptures in who Israel truly is in God's eyes. I look for men as you who have the mind of Christ and comprehend the fulfillment of God's Promises to Israel in the Heavenly City New Jerusalem Church that is above, that Heavenly Mt Zion within whom are the true Israel of God.
I take my hat off to you
Watch out though, this thread will be attacked by those judahized enemies who would attempt to rob the Israel Church of Her Heritage and twistingly hand it back over to the whorish widowed Jerusalem abomination over in the middle east. The Dispensationalists and christian zionists "futurists" are livid against the true Israel Church messengers of the Gospel of Christ. But the message you give is true, stand strong and I'll stand with you on this most important fundamental revelation of who we are as the Israel Bride of Christ, Born from our mother, adorned for her Husband in righteousness, crowned with twelve stars, clothed with the sun and pregnant and bringing forth the Son of God from within us!
May we all be so Blessed!
Son of Israel

 

[Son of Israel]

Um, savedbygrace and glorydaz, I think you are both saying the same thing in different words! I'm seeing to wonderful people here that know wonderful things! How can I agree with both of you and you two not agree? Am I missing something? Going to bed now, but please, get to know what each is saying... or maybe I am missing something... but in any case, Christ came to fulfill the O.T. prophecies to redeem Israel, and all those who enter into Christ are Israel saved! Don't you both agree? I sure hope so
Your brother,
Son of Israel

 

[veteran]

vet :

Rom 9:7-13
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The children of the flesh, that is, those jews who are jews merely by birth naturally, they are not the children of God, God has no promises for such..

Jesus too makes a distinction, He admits by nature that jews were children of abraham, right here:

jn 8:

37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

But then He says this:

39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

You see that ? Jesus said, if ye were abrahams children [offspring] ye would do the works of abraham.

So right here Jesus does not see these jews as being connected with abraham and the promises..He is saying the same thing, though under different circumstances, as paul is in rom 9 : 6-8

And Jesus adds the deminsion that these jews he spake with, not only did not have God as their Father per Jn 8:

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jesus tells them who their Father really is:

Jn 8:

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do

Now, you tell me, what promises does God have for the devils children ? No matter what race they are, God does not promise the devils children nothing but hell..

Matt 23:

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

And what would our Lord Jesus say to those of flesh Israel that did believe on Him? What Promises would the believing seed of Israel then continue in?

They'd continue in the original Promises first given to Israel. So all I'm trying to show is that what Paul taught in Romans 9 about spiritual seed is too often used to try and replace what God promised to believing Israel first. But when study in Romans 10 through 11 is continued, Paul reminds believing Gentiles of that point, and even warns Gentile believers to not get puffed up against even the seed of Israel that still... hasn't believed, for he says all Israel will be saved.

The problem in John 8, is that not all those who have historically claimed... to be flesh Israel, were actually of the flesh seed of Israel.


Esth 8:17
17 And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.
(KJV)

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(KJV)

Some have yet to understand how there were Canaanites that crept in among Israel (Joshua 9; Judges 2 & 3), and several later instances of non-Israelites that crept in and began calling theirselves Jews (like Esther 8:17). So our Lord was not simlply speaking of flesh Israelites that only refuse Him with the "synagogue of Satan" label; it applies to others that never were of Israel.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vet asked:

And what would our Lord Jesus say to those of flesh Israel that did believe on Him?

They would be of the Israel of God, children of promise..Israel finds its True Identity through Jesus christ who is Israel isa 49:

1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.