a 'study' in the 'reality' of MUSIC.

[cyberjosh]

Mec,

Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah.

God doesn't answer prayers, at least in this life. If he did, surely Christians would die of cancer less often than heathens, yet this is not the case.

No man or woman dies apart from the will of God. My grandmother on my Mom's side had cancer and we prayed for her to be healed but it was not God's will and she passed away, though I believe comfortd by God's Spirit because of our prayer. On the other hand my Grandfather on my Dad's side had cancer about 3 years ago and through much prayer he recovered. As it says in Job, "the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord." (Job 1:21).

Also DoubtingThomas, if your namesake has meaning, there is hope yet - for Thomas did not doubt for long, and even had the revelation of Jesus as God showed to him.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Imagican]

Mec,

Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah.

God doesn't answer prayers, at least in this life. If he did, surely Christians would die of cancer less often than heathens, yet this is not the case.

And THAT'S just 'utter confusion'.

The deseases that we suffer. The, (what WE consider), tragic accidents, the, (what WE consider NEEDLESS suffering; these are but PART of being in a 'fleshly vessel'. And if you 'break it down' you will find that MOST Of these are DIRECT results of our OWN doing. Whether perpetrated AGAINST ourselves or direct interactiion of ourselves with OTHERS.

And this 'vessel' is JUST that; a shell in which is contained that destined for a 'freedom' that we are hardpressed to even IMAGINE.

The WHY of who does or does not suffer is a question that has 'plagued' mankind for it's entire existence. I personally believe that it's all a 'part' of the 'Grand Design'. For the life on this planet is a fragile and intricately ballanced 'waltz' of sorts that is SO intricate that we will NEVER be 'able' to understand it's complexity. But that SURELY doesn't negate the FACT that God IS in 'control'. And that 'control' is WHAT we are UNABLE to even 'grasp' in it's entirety.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Mec,

Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah.

God doesn't answer prayers, at least in this life. If he did, surely Christians would die of cancer less often than heathens, yet this is not the case.

And Thomas, I did NOT suggest that you PRAY to a God that you, as of yet, are UNAWARE of. I suggested that you simply 'challenge Him'. ASK Him to 'reveal Himself' to YOU. Personally.

Some may call this prayer. And if the scenario that I offered DID take place in your life, you may well be able to 'look back and see' that it was INDEED prayer.

But I can assure you that you have NOTHING to loose other than 'confusion' brought on by the flesh and the world around you.

And, unless you are 'scared', there is NO REASON that one that seeks the truth would not contemplate the POSSIBILITY of God BEING 'the truth'. Don't BE SCARED. God LOVES you and wishes for you to BE one of His children. The FACT that you are HERE demonstrates that there is 'something' that BROUGHT you here. YOU may not be aware of the 'reason', (and may even THINK that it's to 'enlighten' us 'foolish' Christians), but I can assure you that there is 'something' much DEEPER that has encouraged you to come and participate, and one day soon, you too may find yourself BEING a 'fool for Christ'.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Vic,

While it IS difficult to offer DIRECT Biblical PROOF concerning MUSIC itself, I would be 'hard pressed' to offer Biblical support on ANY view concerning MANY subjects. Drugs, abortion, sex acts between consenting, married adults, etc,,,,,, the list is long and varied.

But there MUST be 'answers' to even those questions that are NOT SPECIFICALLY addressed in The Word. Often times the answers are revealed THROUGH The Word but NOT actually in 'the words contained therein'. It is the Spirit that offers guidance and the words contained within the Bible itself are BUT foolishness to this world.

We KNOW that 'spiritual adutery' was introduced to, and perpetrated by, the Hebrews/Jews OVER and OVER again. The EXACT nature of their rituals were NOT offered in detail in most instances but we KNOW that the idolotry existed for we have the words of the prophets stating as much. Now, HOW do you reacon this idolotry was INTRODUCED to God's people? What was IT that enticed them into 'spiritual adultery'? Ever THOUGHT about it?

Now, Paul DID offer that there were those in churches to which he wrote letters to that were performing ritual that was pertaining to SELF edification rather than edification of EACH OTHER. We also KNOW that ANYTHING that promotes that which is NOT HOLY was warned against. To simply accept into the fold THOSE that are NOT devoted to God through His Son is to 'take pleasure' in that which they DO. How MUCH of this do you 'think' must 'take place' before the WHOLE loaf is LEAVENED?

We were told that we are to 'wipe our feet' from the dust of the homes of those that have been offered testimony and are UNABLE to 'see'. We are told to rebuke our brothers and sisters for unholy acts.

Now, concerning music. If the music promotes unholy behavior it obviously CAN'T be USED in edification of Christ's Church. I don't think that anyone would disagree that music dealing with drug abuse, illicit sexuality, stealing, killing, etc...........IS 'unholy music'. Now, IF one is able to come to an understanding such as this concening music, WHERE is the dividing line? EXACTLY where and when does music 'fall short' of actually HONORING God?

We have been warned that Satan is the MASTER of subtlety. That his lies are so close to the TRUTH that he is able to subvert even those that ARE Holy. That God will be forced to 'cut the days short' so that EVEN THE VERY ELECT are not led astray.

Now WHO among us is ABLE to clearly SEE all of his SUBTLETY? Who among us is ABLE to discern for themselves HOW they can live OUTSIDE of the framework that has been offered WITHOUT falling prey to the beast looking to devour?

Music, is it JUST a 'form of entertainment' that has NO bearing on the Spirit? Or are you ABLE to recognize it's impact ON the spirit of men? Righteous, unrighteous, how do we discern the differnce IF the master of subtlety is ABLE to mimic that which IS from above?

Is it simply a matter of 'using His name'? Does THAT mean that it IS Holy? For Peter Gabriel makes Biblical reference in his music as do MOST in the music industry. And IF there is no DANGER inherent in music, why is it that SO much of it deals with issues of religion or spirituality?
And what EXACTLY IS the effect that it is able to elicite in those that 'partake' in it's RITUAL?

Our testimony is refered to symbolically as 'planting seeds'. WHO can SAY that the music that we listen to is NOT PLANTING SEEDS. And the question is NOT; IS IT, but what FORM of seeds are being sown?

These are questions that "I" do not consider to be of little or NO consequence. We can clearly SEE how the 'churches' have degenerated in their pagentry and membership. What ARE the contributing factors to such a 'lack of Spirit' that we can PLAINLY observe in todays society? How IS IT that 'sexuality', 'the family', 'basic morals', 'anger', 'hate', etc............have BECOME so prevalent in our soceity EVEN in the 'religious community'? What are the COMMON factors that have influenced the degeneration of The Spirit of those that WERE 'once concerned with that which IS Holy'?

I believe that MUSIC is a MAJOR contributing 'factor'. That MANY would 'disagree' is without question. But so too would they disagree in a discussion concerning the OVERWHELMING influence of demons in todays society. For FEW that LIKE something are WILLING to 'give it up' for ANY reason, much LESS for the simply fact that it may or may NOT be Holy.

The 'artist' is often CAUGHT between two world IN THEIR ART. Especially ONCE they come to a conclusion concerning it's BASIS. And even the artists works themselves OFTEN reflect the inner conflict of the religious nature of the art itself.

So too is this most easily recognized in music ONCE one is able to come to an understanding of it. We struggle daily with principalities and powers that are NOT 'physical'. And this battle is being fought right before our very eyes. The biggest problem is that it takes eyes OPEN Spiritually to discern those things that ARE Spiritual. But so long as we LONG for and pine over that which is PHYSICAL, it makes it ALMOST impossible to discern that which IS Spiritual.

We have been warned of the danger of 'itching ears'. That the 'flesh' desires that which IS carnal. Yet we are to 'put away the OLD MAN' and become NEW. This is NOT simply symbolic. So HOW are we to 'put away' that which is 'carnal' WITHOUT 'sacrifice of the OLD MAN'? A 'dying TO flesh' to be 'reborn in Spirit'. How is this to BE accomplished if we simply SAY that we 'believe' WITHOUT a 'putting away' of the 'things of THIS WORLD'?

Would PAUL have exposed himself to that which is ABLE to subvert EVEN THOUGH he stated that ALL THINGS were LEGAL for HIM? A question that MANY would stand to benefit from the understanding of the ANSWER.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

In response to Free,

This is EXACTLY how the churches have fallen into such aposty. They are FORCED to bend their KNEES to the WILL of the congregation in order to fill the pews with 'warm bodies'.

I point out that; what ALL that YOU would offer as 'righteousness' may NOT be SO. And your response is that I am 'like the Pharasees'.

I offer NO LAW. I have simply attempted to compel those that WISH for 'something DEEPER' to THINK and dwelve a 'bit deeper' in order to UNCOVER it.

I have been accused on numerous occasions of 'attempting to place a guilt trip' on those that are complacent in their understanding. Oh well. IF there is CONVICTION, I would suggest that you FOLLOW iT instead of REBELLING against it. A 'bit of fasting and prayer' may be in order instead of trying to make ME appear to be the 'dissenter'. I am BUT A MESSENGER.

If there is NO 'conviction' then there is NO Spirit. 'People pleasing' is NOT my purpose. The EDIFICATION of my brothers and sisters is MORE important to ME than what PLEASES any one of them carnally.

Do you believe that Paul or Christ Himself was concerned with the 'warm fuzzies' that the flesh desires? That they 'held back' their conviction for the sake of those that may 'take offense' to their words. And if I offer NOTHING of mine own, how can you hold negative emotions TOWARDS me? Where is the LOVE in that?

Music is a 'both PHYSICAL and Spiritual' force that MOST are oblivious to. "Thinking" that if it FEELS GOOD then 'do it'. Beware of 'what' you expose yourself to. For oft times that which offers the MOST fleshly satisfaction is that which is MOST damaging to the spirit. And often times it is that which is MOST 'apparently benign' that is the MOST dangerous. For Satan is WELL aware that there ARE those that are 'attempting to follow truth'. And it is THESE that he is most subtle with. Offering that which 'appears' to be righteous so that it becomes ACCEPTED by even the elect.

That my understanding DIFFERS from that of others is of NO consequence. I am FREELY offering it to those that are able to bear it. And I UNDERSTAND completely that MOST won't or CAN'T. For the 'things' of this world ARE most enticing. The flesh itches for that which is PLEASING to the senses. That which offers appeasement of the carnal is what MOST desire MUCH MORE than 'righteousness' for IT'S sake.

Beware of the accusations that you offer in ignorance. For ONCE your EYES are opened, you may WELL see that it was NOT 'my words' that were offered in confusion, but the understanding that has been darkened that was impeded by the flesh that was UNABLE to bear that which is 'Holy'.

Do you NOT realize that WHILE the CC was murdering people that they THOUGHT that they were DOING THE RIGHT THING? That when they taught 'falsehoods' that they had been DUPED into an unnatural understanding that they BELIEVED WAS truth?

So too have MANY been duped into a 'false understanding' of MUCH that pertains to this world in which we LIVE.

Happiness? does ANYONE truly understand the NATURE of this word. One of the MOST damning and dangerous concepts EVER devised by Satan. For there IS 'contentment' obtainable through The Spirit. But PERSONAL edification IS contrary to the UNITY that was offered through Christ.

Yet there is MORE than ONE form of 'unity'. For those that seek PLEASURE ARE unified in a mutual quest for that which matters MOST to them. While seeking SEPARATE edification, they often times do it in a 'unified manner'.

Freedom? Are we TRULY 'free' to DO WHAT WE WILT? IS that; all the law? For God is NOT the 'author of confusion' but of PEACE as in ALL the Churches of the Saints. And this is NOT in reference to a 'lack of persecution, or war or hate', this IS in reference to the sanctity of Christ's Church. He IS Holy as WE TOO are to BE Holy.

Swaying to the beats and sounds of 'this earth' is in NO way to be confused with PLEASING God, but OURSELVES. Do you BELIEVE that God 'dances' to the rhythems of THIS EARTH? Is there ANYTHING 'seductive' about God? Can there BE 'confusion' in the TRUE Church? If God is NOT the author of 'confusion', then WHO IS?

These are the questions that I propose to answer to the satisfaction of ANY that truly desire such understanding. To the rest, my words ARE but foolishness and most likely ALWAYS will BE. But that doesn't impede my desire to 'pass on' such understanding. For I AM a 'fool for Christ', if that's what I MUST be. If my words are confusing, then I guess that they were NOT meant for YOU. But I can assure EACH and EVERY ONE of YOU, that there is truth contained within whether you are ABLE to see it or not. And IF you insist upon rebelling against them, then you most CERTAINLY can gain NOTHING from them.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Cyber,

I did as I said I would. I watched the videos and listened to the music. I have spent a couple of days asking for guidance in my reply. This is what I have 'come up with'. Like it or not, this is what I have to offer:

Not MEANING to 'put a cloud' over anyone's picnic, but JUST as I supposed, this is what I have found:

Now, for those that BELIEVE that ANYTHING offered with the word God or Christ in it IS HOLY, then my words will fall on deaf ears. But here is what I have to offer so far as this particular music.

Firstly, I found that it WAS 'pleasing to the FLESH'. It made ME 'feel good'. And it was obvious by the 'looks' on the performers faces that it was 'pleasing to them as well'. And it had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LYRICS as MUCH as the MUSIC.

For the part that MATTERS: Was it REALLY being 'sung' as 'praise to God', or being DONE SO with the intention of pleasing SELF. Follow me here and DON'T condemn ME yet..........

Is an 'entertainer' REALLY doing the 'work of God'? I mean, 'one sings songs that apeal to the FLESH, they record these songs and sell them for a 'profit'. Is this TRULY the 'work of God' or is there some sort of 'self serving' involved with those either PERFORMING, or 'singing along'?

I am offering NO ACCUSATION. I am simply attempting to 'enlighten those that are ABLE to BE so enlightened'. If there is NO validity in what I offer, then this should offer NO OFFENSE. I have found that ONLY those that are convicted with GUILT feel an overwhelming NEED to justify their actions. For those that KNOW that their actions ARE 'righteous', there is NO NEED for justification.

I have simply offered my interpretation of what I observed. Agree or disagee is up to YOU. But what I have been offered is that there is MUCH that is in the GUISE of 'Godliness' that is JUST THAT: a guise. And MANY are SO SURE that what they BELIEVE is 'truth', that God Himself will offer STRONG delusion so that they will BELIEVE it even MORE. The word 'delusion' is a 'false sense or vision'. FOOLING ONESELF would be a more appropriate term. FOOLING ONESELF into a false sense of 'truth'.

Vanity CANNOT serve God. No matter WHAT excuse you use for it, no matter HOW you attempt to HIDE it by 'calling it something else', vanity IS vanity and it CANNOT serve God. So, as I previously stated; what I offer I offer for edification and there is NO accusation offered here. If there is 'conviction' offered in the WORDS that I have used, then that conviction is NOT from ME, it is from that which is ABLE to convict those that are ABLE to BE convicted.

If we are to 'pray' in our closet, wouldn't it be prudent to 'sing our songs of praise TO GOD in our HEARTS instead of IN THE FLESH? Just a 'question folks'. Take it for what it's worth. If it MEANS NOTHING, then I accept what you 'believe' as YOUR belief. But there is a 'reason' that Christ pointed out how WRONG the Pharasees were to 'pray out in the streets'. For their reward was obtained the MOMENT that the 'first person' witnessed their actions and thought, "Wow, now THAT guy must REALLY LOVE GOD". And I can assure you that the reward received by this man was NOTHING that pertains to God or heaven. It was a 'fleshly reward' and of NO EFFECT in 'righteousness'.

So, I found these songs to be NO different than many offered on 'classic oldies rock stations'. Mildly amusing, mildly entertaining, mildly edifying to the flesh, and I guess if one were to choose to allow it; able to offer a 'sense' of 'spirituality'. But then, like I said, Kansas' 'dust in the wind', or 'Carry on...', is able to elicite basically the SAME emotion. So too are the Eagles and Don Henley able to offer songs that are APEASING to the flesh with the 'symblance' of 'righteousness'.

My two cents worth. Have a nice day :-D

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I like Gregorian Chant. It makes me feel closer to God.

 

[Imagican]

I like Gregorian Chant. It makes me feel closer to God.

I am familiar with the term but haven't ever actually studied them in general. But I DO know that this was the FIRST organized Christian form of verbal communal worship that we have record of.

Studying Jewish singing leads to pretty much a 'dead end'. For they were such a splintered people that their music is as diverse as the locals to which they were spread. But what historical evidence that we DO have concerning 'songs of worship 'from the 'time of Christ' is VOID until the time of the Roman's use of Gregorian Chants.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I like Gregorian Chant. It makes me feel closer to God.

I am familiar with the term but haven't ever actually studies them in general. But I DO know that this was the FIRST organized Christian form of verbal communal worship that we have record of.

Studying Jewish singing leads to pretty much a 'dead end'. For they were such a splintered people that their music is as diverse as the locals to which they were spread. But what historical evidence that we DO have concerning 'songs of worship 'from the 'time of Christ' is VOID until the time of the Roman's use of Gregorian Chants.

MEC

Well, all I know is that it is beautiful. Hearing ancient melodies, with ancient prayers rising up to God like whisps of smoke from burning incense, can move you to tears.