Abandon Ship!

[Elijah674]

I knew someone would misunderstand this, lol. I didn't say doctrine doesn't matter to God.

Correct doctrine never saved a single soul, and never will. But this is what so many people think 'believing' means; that you are saved because you believe correct things about the facts of the faith, or worship correctly, or belong to a denomination that believes correctly, etc. Trust in Christ's blood is what saves. Faith that turns you into one who loves like God loves, forgiving others and having mercy and compassion for them, thus fulfilling the law. Possessing correct doctrines does not fulfill the requirements of the law of Moses and show one to belong to God through faith in Christ.

________

Is that post per/thread subject, or your way of going against your own post??
2 Cor. 4:2

Read the Re: Abandon Ship! Question again, perhaps something completely different is meant?? Such as 'cutting up' the person of the post?? Whatever. Matt. 10:25
--Elijah
_________

Abandon Ship!

Acts 27:43-44 But the centurion... commanded that those who could swim should jump overboard first and get to land, and the rest, some on boards and some on parts of the ship.

When should you leave your church? Your Bible college? Your denomination? Any Christian ministry?

The accusation about rats deserting a sinking ship is not found in the Scriptures, but shouldn't you be loyal to a failing ministry? Or should you blame everything on the leader and go elsewhere? Is it your fault? Should you be a church-hopper? For the sake of your children, should you go to the best church possible, even if that means leaving your own church?

The centurion made the right decision. Can you?​

 

[Elijah674]

Abandon Ship!

Acts 27:43-44 But the centurion... commanded that those who could swim should jump overboard first and get to land, and the rest, some on boards and some on parts of the ship.

When should you leave your church? Your Bible college? Your denomination? Any Christian ministry?

The accusation about rats deserting a sinking ship is not found in the Scriptures, but shouldn't you be loyal to a failing ministry? Or should you blame everything on the leader and go elsewhere? Is it your fault? Should you be a church-hopper? For the sake of your children, should you go to the best church possible, even if that means leaving your own church?

The centurion made the right decision. Can you?

_______________

Does not Christ answer your question in Rev. 18:4's last time period?? Surely we see the same message as taught from His Word of John 10:16. Why would He CALL them out if He were in these Rev. 17:1-5 ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH CHURCH'S??

Read Matt. 10:5-6 prayerfully & then on through ibid 15 for the reason to abondon Christ's 'ex/church' or Virgin ship even.

---Elijah​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm convinced that beliefs about OSAS and various other doctrines you brought up do not define a church or ministry that categorically must be abandoned.

Ultimately, we are to do what Jesus said...look for the fruit. That's how you identify legitimate church leaders/ ministries. From there you can decide whether to stay with the ship or not for all the other various reasons we have to consider when choosing a church.

 

[Elijah674]

I'm convinced that beliefs about OSAS and various other doctrines you brought up do not define a church or ministry that categorically must be abandoned.

Ultimately, we are to do what Jesus said...look for the fruit. That's how you identify legitimate church leaders/ ministries. From there you can decide whether to stay with the ship or not for all the other various reasons we have to consider when choosing a church.

You just do your thing. The teaching of false doctrine is what concerns me! These 'others' of Rev. 18:4 ARE HIS PEOPLE that your post is trying to influence!

Rev. 18:4
[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that [[ye be not partakers of her sins]], and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

[cyberjosh]

Jethro Bodine

There isn’t really a category for someone like me on this forum. And at the time I signed up, I didn’t foresee the dilemma common to you and some others. I don’t blame you for thinking like you do. Since you’re not the only one to be confused.

But I do find myself wishing you were a bit more like the Jethro Bodine on the Beverly Hillbillies. Like you, that Jethro wasn’t stupid, though others sometimes thought he was. He was trained all his life to look at things in a simple and straightforward way. But at least he did make the effort to understand the thinking of people around him. Especially folks as different from him as his Beverly Hills neighbors. The whole family was like that. But I think only Jed had the wisdom to see it. And even he sometimes misunderstood what them Beverly Hills people were saying. Banker Drysdale and his secretary, by the end of the first season, began to understand and appreciate them. And so did I.

Shoot, if I ever meet up with a family like them, which is highly unlikely if I haven’t before now, they’re probably going to get tired of seeing me around so much. I don’t think they’ll wonder why, being such neighborly folks and all. Already being married, it wouldn’t be for any of the women folk. Ellie May sure was beautiful, And cousin Pearl cute as a bugs ear. Even Granny had a certain charm, and charms of potions to make up for what she lacked otherwise. And all three were good people inside, just like Jed and Jethro. Jethro said in one episode that Jed could quote just about any part of the bible. But I don’t know if that would make them Christian or not. I don’t remember if they ever attended a Church. But they sure acted more like Christians than some I’ve known.

If you wish, and if you care, I can try and explain it to you again.

FC

I must say that anyone who believes in Christ and has come to a disagreement, at one time or another, with the doctrine of a local Church which they have gone to has had the feeling of not fitting into "a category" (forgetting the more abstract "denominational" category - the local Church made up of the saints is the actual expression [the actual living stones of Christ's ekklesia] where you really see in action any "professed" beliefs or not - therefore it can be completely genuine or alternatively phony). I am one of those people who doesn't feel like I fit into a neat category. I am going to PM you something that may help you make sense of my position as well and show you how similar it really is to your experience. Jethro is right that you can't use denomination as a category to define who is a saved believer in Jesus or not - it invalidates the grace of God to say so.

Doctrines certainly can be false and it is certainly bad to "denominate" around false doctrines - but observe the fruit of the individual (just like that passionate young man who may or may not belong to a Church within a certain denomination) to determine if the root (heart) is also good. I don't judge you for your stance if indeed you believe in Christ. But perhaps, and I suggest this gently, you are not aware or have not seen how others struggle in the same way you do but have taken equally valid alternatives in regards to Christianity. Surely you don't think you are the only one to have acted in good conscience before God??? Once again, not an accusation or judgment, but a rhetorical device to drive forward a point.

What I will PM you will show you clearly that I do not fit neatly into any denominational category (in the terminology of historical Christian doctrines I am part Calvinist and part Arminian - part Reformed and part Dispensational - and part none of those categories - but all a believer in Christ for eternal life). You are not an exile unless you make yourself one. If you believe in Jesus Christ you are bound to me (and Jethro, and Elijah, etc.) in the same body of Christ through the Holy Spirit being built together with me as living stones on the chief cornerstone which is Christ. So if I call myself a Christian and you do not, yet we are brothers in Christ what then shall we say?

And you are right, the Gospel is simple. Our Easter sermon yesterday was on the equation that Jesus + Nothing = Everything. That simply means we cannot add good works, a doctrinal pedigree, displays of our righteousness, or anything else we can try to muster to add to the faith that can amount to anything more than what Jesus alone can offer us. In fact the Pastor told us that to add Jesus + Something results in less than everything, it is a negative factor. Salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves it is the gift of God.

God Bless,
~Josh

 

[Elijah674]

I must say that anyone who believes in Christ and has come to a disagreement with the doctrine of a local Church you have gone to (forget the more abstract "denominational" category - the local Church is the actual expression [the brick & mortar/living stones of Christ's ekklesia] that you see of any professed beliefs or not - therefore it can be completely genuine or alternatively phony) has had the feeling of not fitting into "a category". I am one of those people. I am going to PM you something that may help you make sense of my position as well and show you how similar it really is to your experience. Jethro is right that you can't use denomination as a category to define who is a saved believer in Jesus or not - it invalidates the grace of God to say so.

Doctrines certainly can be false and it is certainly bad to "denominate" around false doctrines - but observe the fruit of the individual (just like that passionate young man who may or may not belong to a Church within a certain denomination) to determine if the root (heart) is also good. I don't judge you for your stance if indeed you believe in Christ. But perhaps, and I suggest this gently, you are not aware or have not seen how others struggle in the same way you do but have taken equally valid alternatives in regards to Christianity. Surely you don't think you are the only one to have acted in good conscience before God??? Once again, not an accusation or judgment, but a rhetorical device to drive forward a point.

What I will PM you will show you clearly that I do not fit neatly into any denominational category (in the terminology of historical Christian doctrines I am part Calvinist and part Arminian - part Reformed and part Dispensational - and part none of those categories - but all a believer in Christ for eternal life). You are not an exile unless you make yourself one. If you believe in Jesus Christ you are bound to me (and Jethro, and Elijah, etc.) in the same body of Christ through the Holy Spirit being built together with me as living stones on the chief cornerstone which is Christ. So if I call myself a Christian and you do not, yet we are brothers in Christ what then shall we say?

And you are right, the Gospel is simple. Our Easter sermon yesterday was on the equation that Jesus + Nothing = Everything. That simply means we cannot add good works, a doctrinal pedigree, displays of our righteousness, or anything else we can try to muster to add to the faith that can amount to anything more than what Jesus alone can offer us. In fact the Pastor told us that to add Jesus + Something resulting in less than everything, it is a negative factor. Salvation by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves it is the gift of God.

God Bless,
~Josh

Just curious, why did you not just personally PM him this?? And please do not speak for me ok? We are many moons apart of our belief!;) (but we still love one another, at least from this end)

I find on most sites that there are large numbers 'jumping ship. From the Rev. 17:1-5 ones, as we find REQUIRED in Rev. 18:4. Yet, few & far between these many postings 'i' find the real reason for doing so being the wrong one. Your post comes close to my thinking. That of these churches teaching false doctrines. (if that is what you alluded to?) Most just do not like the preacher, or the sermons or 'poplucks' or whatever??

But there will come a time young'in ;) that you will up & DEPART, or be tossed out
if you 'rock their false doctrinal Ship'! And.. you are in our prayers (my wife & mine) & it is just around the corner!

--Elijah

 

[cyberjosh]

Elijah,

I am trying to keep my discussions separated as much as possible and it is easier to respond with a quote in the thread it is posted in. And I will try not to speak for you, but all I said in referencing you is that if you are in Christ and if I am also, then we are bound together in Christ as believers. That is biblical and inescapable. Regardless of what the appendages of the Body think of one another, if they hold to the Head, they are all part of the same Body whether they know, or like, it or not. That is all I meant. If anything I was acknowledging that you are a born again believer in Jesus Christ, Elijah. I hope that was not too presumptuous of me.

-Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

I was typing in haste earlier over my lunch break. My apologies to FC if I should have included my comments here in a PM instead. I didn't really think about it. Sorry...

 

[Elijah674]

Here is what was said:
____

'What I will PM you will show you clearly that I do not fit neatly into any denominational category (in the terminology of historical Christian doctrines I am part Calvinist and part Arminian - part Reformed and part Dispensational - and part none of those categories - but all a believer in Christ for eternal life). You are not an exile unless you make yourself one. If you believe in Jesus Christ you are bound to me (and Jethro, and Elijah, etc.) in the same body of Christ through the Holy Spirit being built together with me as living stones on the chief cornerstone which is Christ. So if I call myself a Christian and you do not, yet we are brothers in Christ what then shall we say?' (partial quote)
____

OK: My conviction is that of Rev. 18:4's being a PARTAKER of any open sin teaching church. Can 'i' be a brother IN Christ by remaining in any such church??
NO, that is why I left the Seventh day Adventist church a good number of years ago. (nothing to do with doctrine, but the Matt. 23:2-3 presumption of open sin left unchecked! Such as sueing a SDA believer in court for using their tradmarked name, or for leaving openly homesexual Kin/Ship dual membership of the membership books of both church denominations. (in court records)

And now the question begs this answer? Does that now mean to me that there are not real Christian Brothers in the SDA Church?? My answer to that is that ONLY GOD can answer that for who they are! (not me. But I am not allowed to venture a guess) There is NO way for me to read anothers HEART + MOTIVES & GROWTH.

But as an [[individual]] with me calling you for instance a brother? There is no way for me to be able to do that. Again, only Christ can know this!

And any denomination that teaches any known open flaws doctrine for truth, [IS NOT A CHRISTIAN CHURCH] as 'i' see it. Nor could I hop scotch all around the subject by claiming that these ones are such.

And individual members?? Again, John 10:16 surely has Christ calling for these 'TO ABANDON SHIP!' Otherwise why would He do so 'IF' He were in the sinking Ship???

--Elijah