Abrogation in Islam - it IS important!

[Love25]

I already gave you all what WHOLE SURAH 9 talks about but this were not enough for you, right!?

So you wanted to talk about verse 9:5 sepratly and this is fine with me, but you see the verse 9:5 in CONTEXT is talking about SPECIFIC rules in Battle times simply beucase as I said:

Holy Quran covers all aspects of life which means in:

Peace Times
War times
and even in battle Times

And all those rules are not changed not that time and till today and in future and they dont Abrogate each other becuase:

If you come to us with peace and had the ability to live beside Muslims then we will use with you PEACE times teachings from Quran!

if you attack or threat us then we will use with you teachings of God about how to deal with our enemies in war times and during battles times!

------------------

Now I will explain to you what is aborgation means in Quran for example you know that we Muslims dont drink alcohol but God didnt forbide it immidiatly for Muslims but step by step:

First verse about this matter said it is something bad and in it Harm more then benefit:

They ask thee concerning wine and gambling say: ‘In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit’."
[Al-Qur’an 2:219]

Then:

"O ye who believe! approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say" [Al-Qur’an 4:43]

Then:

"O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan’s handiwork; eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper."
[Al-Qur’an 5:90]

So in second verse it says not to pray while praying and in third verse it says not to drink at all, and it aborgate the other two above verses but they still working becuase:

1- it is SIN to drink alcohol!
2- we dont drink while we pray!

See this is the abrogation that God told us about something replaces something better!

Same Like Adam and EVE example which we can find in all religions Adam and EVE married each other then their children sisters and brothers were allowed to get married then this were aborgated when humans begin to be more and there were no need, this is also kind of Abrogation!

For example Mother see the whether bad so she says to her children dont go to play outside house, then next day the whether is good so she tells them you can go to play, This is also kind of abrogation thats why we need to know and understand CONTEXT, CONTEXT< CONTEXT....!!!!

Peace





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[Sanitarium]

Love25 the rest of your post is irrelevant except for this part:

See this is the abrogation that God told us about something replaces something better!

Yes thank you! that is my whole point! You kept stating that abrogation does not exist in the Quran, but now you have finally admitted it. That which is revealed later (and contradicts something earlier) abrogates the earlier.

Thank you for your assistance!

Best Wishes

 

[Love25]

Love25 the rest of your post is irrelevant except for this part:

See this is the abrogation that God told us about something replaces something better!

Yes thank you! that is my whole point! You kept stating that abrogation does not exist in the Quran, but now you have finally admitted it. That which is revealed later (and contradicts something earlier) abrogates the earlier.

Thank you for your assistance!

Best Wishes

I didnt assist anything actualy I explained to you what you missed and you seem dont understand for one reason or another!

Is it Pride!?

Peace

 

[Sanitarium]

I didnt assist anything actualy I explained to you what you missed and you seem dont understand for one reason or another!

Is it Pride!?

You seem to think that the person who merely insists they are right (the loudest) and the person who makes the last post in a thread is "right". This is not the case. The evidence I have presented has not been refuted Bring your evidence (to back up your claims) if you are truthful.

 

[Love25]

I didnt assist anything actualy I explained to you what you missed and you seem dont understand for one reason or another!

Is it Pride!?

You seem to think that the person who merely insists they are right (the loudest) and the person who makes the last post in a thread is "right". This is not the case. The evidence I have presented has not been refuted Bring your evidence (to back up your claims) if you are truthful.

I am writting for you the word

becuase all what I do is explain to you what you didnt understand by your own!

By the way I can copy/paste answers for you from web sites that were made as response to those non Muslims web sites that were made to attack Islam and which you use, but I answered you with my own words becuase all those claims are repeated ones and already answered and explained!

You said you are Atheist and you didnt want me to mention christinaity, but in most cases there is need to do that simply becuase most of athiests in west came from Christian back grounds and I blames christianity that they failed to contain such EVIL like atheism, and those athiests like u took bad idea about religions in general from what they knew from their back grounds!

May Allah (swt) guide you!

Peace​

 

[Sanitarium]

I am writting for you the word

becuase all what I do is explain to you what you didnt understand by your own!
​

I'm an Atheist okay? That means I look at the available evidence. If you say <such and such> is true, then I need evidence to back that up. Your word is not good enough.

By the way I can copy/paste answers for you from web sites that were made as response to those non Muslims web sites that were made to attack Islam and which you use

You can please show which "anti Islam website" I copy pasted from? In fact, its an adapted version of a post I made on richarddawkins.net (the tafsirs) which I wrote myself. My opening post was written by me when I opened up the thread.

Please do not accuse me falsely.

You said you are Atheist and you didnt want me to mention christinaity, but in most cases there is need to do that simply becuase most of athiests in west came from Christian back grounds and I blames christianity that they failed to contain such EVIL like atheism

Atheism is not "evil". It is simply a lack of belief in God/gods. If we are discussing the problems or merits of Islam then there is no need to bring up Christianity, unless your aim is to derail the topic.

, and those athiests like u took bad idea about religions in general from what they knew from their back grounds!

I'm sorry, but did you miss the part where I revealed I have been studying Islam's texts for 3 years? I was an agnostic when I started, and now I'm an Atheist, thanks to the insight I gained from studying Islam.

You seem to be painting me as an ignoramus, but I assure you this not the case. Now kindly stop wasting my time. If you think abrogation does not exist in the Quran, bring your sources.​

 

[Love25]

You seem to be painting me as an ignoramus, but I assure you this not the case. Now kindly stop wasting my time. If you think abrogation does not exist in the Quran, bring your sources

To not waste each others time 9:5 verse dont abrogate anything as shown to you in CONTEXT!

Abrogation that in Quran already explained and examples from Quran were given to you!

Peace

 

[Love25]

You seem to be painting me as an ignoramus, but I assure you this not the case. Now kindly stop wasting my time. If you think abrogation does not exist in the Quran, bring your sources

To not waste each others time 9:5 verse dont abrogate anything as shown to you in CONTEXT!

Abrogation that in Quran already explained and examples from Quran were given to you!

Peace

Maybe My English is bad so here is copy/paste explanation to verse 9:5

Some people – especially some contemporary non-Muslim critics of Islam – have tried to claim that this verse abrogates the verse “Let there be no compulsion in religion.†They argue that the generality of this statement implies that every unbeliever who refuses to accept Islam must be fought. They support their allegation by pointing out that this verse is one of the last verses to be revealed about fighting.

However, this verse in no way abrogates the principle in Islamic Law that there is no compulsion in religion. It may be general in wording, but its meaning is quite specific on account of other verses of the Quran that are connected with it as well as on account of a number of pertinent hadîth. We will be discussing these texts shortly.

The people being referred to by this verse are the pagan Arabs who had been waging war against the Prophet (peace be upon him) and who had broken their covenant and treaties with him. This verse is not speaking about the other pagan Arabs who did not break their treaties and take up arms against the Muslims. It is also most definitely not speaking about the Jews or Christians, or, for that matter, the pagans who were living outside of Arabia.

If we look at the verses in Surah al-Tawbah immediately before and after the one under discussion, the context of the verse becomes clear.

A few verses before the one we are discussing, Allah says: “There is a declaration of immunity from Allah and His Messenger to those of the pagans with whom you have contracted mutual alliances. Go then, for four months, to and fro throughout the land. But know that you cannot frustrate Allah that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.†[Surah al-Tawbah: 1-2]

In these verses we see that the pagans were granted a four month amnesty with an indication that when the four months were over, fighting would resume. However, a following verse exempts some of them from the resumption of hostilities. It reads: “Except for those pagans with whom you have entered into a covenant and who then do not break their covenant at all nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill your engagements with them until the end of their term, for Allah loves the righteous.†[Surah al-Tawbah: 4]

So when Allah says: “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them and beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)â€Â, we must know that it is not general, since the verse above has qualified it to refer to the pagan Arabs who were actually at war with the Prophet (peace be upon him) and those who broke their covenants of peace.

This is further emphasized by a few verses later where Allah says: “Will you not fight people who broke their covenants and plotted to expel the Messenger and attacked you first?†[Surah al-Tawbah: 13]

Ibn al-Arabi, in his commentary on the Quran, writes: “It is clear from this that the meaning of this verse is to kill the pagans who are waging war against you.†[Ahkam al-Quran: (2/456)]

Allah also say right after the verse under discussion: “How can there be a covenant before Allah and His Messenger with the pagans except those with whom you have made a treaty near the Sacred Mosque? As long as they stand true to you, stand true to them, for Allah does love the righteous.†[Surah al-Tawbah: 7]

Another misunderstood text is the hadîth where the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “I have been commanded to fight the people until they bear witness that there is no God but Allah and that I am Allah’s Messenger. If they do so, then there blood and their wealth are inviolable except in the dispensation of justice, and their affair is with Allah.†[Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslims]

There can be no qualms about this hadîth’s authenticity, since it is recorded in both Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. However, this hadîth is also not to be taken generally, out of context, and in complete disregard to all the other textual evidence.

The term “people†here is not referring to all humanity. Ibn Taymiyah says: “It refers to fighting those who are waging war, whom Allah has permitted us to fight. It does not refer to those who have a covenant with us with whom Allah commands us to fulfill our covenant.†[Majmu al-Fatawa (19/20)]

Islam commands the Muslims to be just with people of other faiths, whether they be Jews, Christians, or pagans. Islam calls us to treat them kindly and try to win their hearts as long as they do not take up arms against us. Allah says: “Allah forbids you not with regard to those who neither fight against you for your faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them, for Allah loves those who are just.†[Surah al-Mumtahanah: 9-10]

Allah commands Muslims to respect their non-Muslim parents and to accompany them in this world in a good manner.

The Quran commands us to argue with them in the best manner. Allah says: “Argue with the People of the Scripture in the best manner except those among them who act oppressively. Say: We believe in the revelation that has come down to us and in that which came down to you. Our God and your God is one, and it is to Him we submit ourselves as Muslims.†[Surah al-Ankabût: 46]

We are ordered to uphold our covenants with the non-Muslims and not betray them or transgress against them. The Prophet (peace be upon him) gave a stern warning to us against killing a non-Muslim with whom we are at peace. He said: “Whoever kills one with whom we have a covenant will not smell the scent of Paradise.†[Sahih Muslim]

The faith of a Muslim is not acceptable unless he believes in all of the Prophets who were sent before (peace be upon them all). Allah says: “O you who believe! Believe in Allah, His Messengr, the scripture that He revealed to His messenger and the scripture that he revealed before. Whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His Messengers, and the Last Day has gone far astray.†[Surah al-Nisa]

Peace

 

[Sanitarium]

I already told you that context is irrelevant. We are not discussing the tafsir of Surah 9. The point of this thread is simply to explain the doctrine of abrogation, which you have agreed exists. The reason I brought up 9:5 was for example, as it abrogates (by itself) the largest number of verses.

Like you, the author of that article is ignoring the main point and trying to pick holes in single abrogations. By the way, simply asserting you are right is not evidence.

 

[Love25]

I already told you that context is irrelevant. We are not discussing the tafsir of Surah 9. The point of this thread is simply to explain the doctrine of abrogation, which you have agreed exists. The reason I brought up 9:5 was for example, as it abrogates (by itself) the largest number of verses.

Like you, the author of that article is ignoring the main point and trying to pick holes in single abrogations. By the way, simply asserting you are right is not evidence.

Exsactly I showed you that your example is WRONG, and by the way it is not only example but is more as it is FALSE claim that have no base or source from Holy Quran AS SHOWN!

In other words:

KIND of Abrogation you talk about is not in the Holy Quran!!!!!

Peace

 

[Sanitarium]

Exsactly I showed you that you example is WRONG, and by the way it is not only example but is more FALSE claims that have no base or source from Holy Quran!

In other words:

Abrogation you talk about is not in the Holy Quran!!!!!

Peace

*sigh*. Again NO, you and the article you quoted simply assert that it is not an abrogation yet you have provided no evidence. The fact is that 9:5 does abrogate 112 verses, whether you personally would like to admit it or not. Again, it's your opinion and not a fact.

So until you have some evidence to present (from Islamic texts) then your opinion is just that.

 

[Love25]

[/quote]
*sigh*. Again NO, you and the article you quoted simply assert that it is not an abrogation yet you have provided no evidence. The fact is that 9:5 does abrogate 112 verses, whether you personally would like to admit it or not. Again, it's your opinion and not a fact.

So until you have some evidence to present (from Islamic texts) then your opinion is just that.[/quote]

What evidence I dont need one as the CONTEXT of the verse is very clear!!!

I just explained it to you in its CONTEXT, unless you want to conect it with another context from your own imagination!?

Peace

 

[Sanitarium]

I just explained it to you in its CONTEXT, unless you want to conect it with another context from your own imagination!?

No, please re-read the tafsir's I provided on the previous page. Kathir tells you that it abrogates and Maududi makes it clear that since the ayah of the sword, Muslims are now engaged in a battle with the whole non Muslim world. If, as you say, this is only for a specific people, then the tafsir's would not be saying that; they would make it clear that your interpretatin is correct.

However, they side with me. You know why they side with me? Because I do not have any pre-conceptions about Islam and I use the TEXTS themselves in order to draw my conclusions (not what I wish to be true). In other words, I state that Surah 9 ayah 5 abrogates the peaceful verses, because I use the texts, and you do not.

 

[Love25]

I just explained it to you in its CONTEXT, unless you want to conect it with another context from your own imagination!?

No, please re-read the tafsir's I provided on the previous page. Kathir tells you that it abrogates and Maududi makes it clear that since the ayah of the sword, Muslims are now engaged in a battle with the whole non Muslim world. If, as you say, this is only for a specific people, then the tafsir's would not be saying that; they would make it clear that your interpretatin is correct.

However, they side with me. You know why they side with me? Because I do not have any pre-conceptions about Islam and I use the TEXTS themselves in order to draw my conclusions (not what I wish to be true). In other words, I state that Surah 9 ayah 5 abrogates the peaceful verses, because I use the texts, and you do not.

Maybe we dont understand each other so answer this question:

This verse talks about Pagan Arabs who used to break treaties with muslims or not only them!?

Peace

 

[Sanitarium]

Maybe we dont understand each other so answer this question:

Okay lemme give you an analogy to explain what the problem is here:

Sanitarium: "The population of the Earth is 6 billion people!

Love25: But the population in Australia is only 1 million! You're completely wrong!


See what the problem is here? I'm talking about a general thing, and you're continually trying to drag it down to specific apologetics in order to 'prove' I'm wrong; when all you're really doing is derailing my thread.

This verse talks about Pagan Arabs who used to break treaties with muslims or not only them!?

You are hooked on the (alleged) revelational circumstances of the verse itself. However, given the tafsir's that I have provided, you have no right to claim that this verse is only to be applied to that situation and no others. The tafsirs I have provided (again) tell us that 9:5 does abrogate peaceful verses and that since 9:5 was revealed, Muslims are now engaged in war with the whole non Muslim world.

Let me give you an example. Quran 4:3's revelational circumstances were that a man married an orphan girl just so he could gain control of her property (wealth), and thus men are commanded not to marry orphans if they cannot be just with them. If we take your line of reasoning, men do not have to be just with orphans unless a date palm grove is a part of her property (in order to match the revelational circumstances). See how wrong that is?

 

[Gabe]

This verse talks about Pagan Arabs who used to break treaties with muslims or not only them!?

You are hooked on the (alleged) revelational circumstances of the verse itself. However, given the tafsir's that I have provided, you have no right to claim that this verse is only to be applied to that situation and no others. The tafsirs I have provided (again) tell us that 9:5 does abrogate peaceful verses and that since 9:5 was revealed, Muslims are now engaged in war with the whole non Muslim world.

Let me give you an example. Quran 4:3's revelational circumstances were that a man married an orphan girl just so he could gain control of her property (wealth), and thus men are commanded not to marry orphans if they cannot be just with them. If we take your line of reasoning, men do not have to be just with orphans unless a date palm grove is a part of her property (in order to match the revelational circumstances). See how wrong that is?

Sani has made a great point here. The Christian equivalent to what Love25 is claiming would be that I (or any other Christian) do not have to follow the teachings of the Sermon on the mount, because I'm not on a mount in the Middle-East listening to Jesus do His thing. Quite frankly; to claim such a thing is ridiculous.

 

[Love25]

Sanitarium do you know what is the problem between us that I try to explain to you from the begining!?

Simply the KIND of Abrogation you talk about is NOT in the Holy Quran!

Peace

 

[Sanitarium]

Sanitarium do you know what is the problem between us that I try to explain to you from the begining!?

Simply the KIND of Abrogation you talk about is NOT in the Holy Quran!

Peace

Yes you keep claiming that despite all the evidence. I am still waiting for your proof.

 

[Love25]

Sanitarium do you know what is the problem between us that I try to explain to you from the begining!?

Simply the KIND of Abrogation you talk about is NOT in the Holy Quran!

Peace

Yes you keep claiming that despite all the evidence. I am still waiting for your proof.

Already done as I explained you verse 9:5 which by the way is the example that YOU brought not me!

And I gave you explanation by example of Adam and EVE!

And Alcohol prohibition in the Holy Quran!

And for sude I didnt use the bible becuase you are Atheist, right!?

Peace

 

[Sanitarium]

Yes I am an Atheist.

Please see the two posts here (bottom part) and here to see why your 'explanation' is wrong.