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Bible Study Accepted in the Beloved: Why My Redemption and Adoption is Eternally Secure.

I like the brain surgeon removing a person's brain tumor analogy in explication of the role of faith in salvation. The patient believes the surgeon can remove his tumor and so agrees to be operated upon, but the actual removal of the tumor is not something in which the patient can at all participate. He simply lays on the operating table and receives the saving work of the surgeon - just like a person who trusts in the Great Physician to save them from their sin-sickness.
Well, seein's as I is a brain surgeon (and a double knot spy), let's use that analogy.

In, both, Calvy and non-Calvy doctrine, the person has faith that the surgeon can remove the tumor, and so he submits to the work of the surgeon in faith and makes no contribution of his own towards the surgery except to believe that he can do it (as evidenced by the fact he's not working to do it himself).

Where Calvy and non-Calvy doctrines disagree is Calvinism says God is the one who makes the person capable of making the decision to believe in the surgeon, if he is one of the chosen few who will be given that capability, and that the person can never stop believing in the surgeon, because God is the one who determines whether he believes or not.

Non-Calvy doctrine says the choice to believe or not believe in the surgeon's ability comes from the person himself, when the choice is made available to him by the surgeon. And that person has the choice to stop believing and trusting in the work of the surgeon at any time and can climb down off the table at will.
 
Non-Calvy doctrine says the choice to believe or not believe in the surgeon's ability comes from the person himself, when the choice is made available to him by the surgeon. And that person has the choice to stop believing and trusting in the work of the surgeon at any time and can climb down off the table at will.

This is where I diverge from your non-Calvy (that is to say, simply biblical) person who believes they can undo their salvation, or, in the case of the analogy, undo their brain surgery. I no more think the former is possible than the latter.
 
This is where I diverge from your non-Calvy (that is to say, simply biblical) person who believes they can undo their salvation, or, in the case of the analogy, undo their brain surgery. I no more think the former is possible than the latter.
A tumor can grow back.
That's why one need stay in the care of the medical professional they trust in.
 
A tumor can grow back.
That's why one need stay in the care of the medical professional they trust in.

Yes, but the surgery and the removal of the original tumor is accomplished and cannot be reversed. The "disease" of sin remains in a sort of "remission" within the believer but they have been forever redeemed from its power and penalty by the Great Physician (1 Corinthians 1:2, 19-20), the death-dealing "tumor" of the "old man" permanently separated from them, held impotent on the cross of Calvary (Romans 6:1-11; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 5:24; Colossians 3:1-3, etc.).

In any case, I offered the analogy particularly insofar as it helps demonstrate how faith in Christ is not what saves but rather his atoning work on our behalf, cleansing and healing us of sin's curse. As is the case for any analogy, the tumor-surgeon one can be stretched too far.
 
The "disease" of sin remains in a sort of "remission" within the believer but they have been forever redeemed from its power and penalty by the Great Physician (1 Corinthians 1:2, 19-20), the death-dealing "tumor" of the "old man" permanently separated from them, held impotent on the cross of Calvary
And so your analogy contains the same undetermined point that we are arguing and does not answer it.

Just as your opinion is that the deadly disease of sin and its penalty cannot come back in your theology about redemption, so it is still an opinion in your analogy. It accomplished nothing towards proving your point.

But at least you did acknowledge the point about it going into remission. And, I contend, as long as you keep believing the Great Physician will always be there, through your faith, to keep you cancer free you will most assuredly remain cancer free. Walk away from the Great Physician in unbelief and he will not be there to keep you cancer free.

So we're back to the original question: Can a true believer go back to unbelief and forfeit the care and protection of the Great Physician that he once had when he had that care and protection through faith in it? Calvinism says, no. Non Calvinism says, yes.

The Bible tells what will happen if you do go back to unbelief so perhaps that indicates the true believer can in fact go back to unbelief.
 
And so your analogy contains the same undetermined point that we are arguing and does not answer it.

??? No. As I explained, the removal of the tumor cannot be undone. Neither can one's salvation. Sin may crop up after one's spiritual regeneration but this no more dissolves one's salvation than the appearance of other tumors dissolves the surgery that successfully removed the brain tumor. The surgery happened successfully whatever future disease may occur and one's salvation happened whatever future sin may occur.

Just as your opinion is that the deadly disease of sin and its penalty cannot come back in your theology about redemption, so it is still an opinion in your analogy. It accomplished nothing towards proving your point.

??? I've never said that sin cannot appear in a believer's life after their salvation. I just don't believe, for the reasons I spelled out from Scripture in my OP, that when it does, the saved person's salvation is in jeopardy.

As I said, my analogy was intended to clarify the matter of faith being salvific. That's all. This stretching of the analogy into this related matter of one's eternal security is not something I want to sustain since it wasn't the point of the analogy in the first place.

And, I contend, as long as you keep believing the Great Physician will always be there, through your faith, to keep you cancer free you will most assuredly remain cancer free. Walk away from the Great Physician in unbelief and he will not be there to keep you cancer free.

Well, I don't believe this. What you're espousing here is, essentially, works-salvation: Your persistence in believing keeps you saved. This is "another Gospel" as far as I'm concerned. But you are entitled to your opinion.

Can a true believer go back to unbelief and forfeit the care and protection of the Great Physician that he once had when he had that care and protection through faith in it? Calvinism says, no. Non Calvinism says, yes.

False dichotomy. It's not necessary to be a Calvinist and hold to OSAS. I hold to the OSAS view but I am definitely not a Calvinist.

What did God do when the Israelites adopted an "evil heart of unbelief," refusing to enter the Promised Land God had given to them? He put them out in the wilderness until the unbelieving generation expired. Did God abandon His Chosen People in the wilderness? Did their unbelief dissolve His relationship to them? No. Not at all. Even in the wilderness, God continued to provide for and protect the Israelites. Likewise, the unbelieving Christian wanders in a spiritual wilderness, kept from the spiritual abundance they possess in Christ by their unbelief, but their adoption into God's family remains unalterable.

What about the Prodigal Son? Did his profligate living dissolve his relationship to his father? No. Even if he'd died, he'd still have been his father's son. Their fellowship together died, yes, their intimate communion with one another halted, but their relationship endured, inviolable. Just so in the believer's relationship to their Heavenly Father.
 
Yet examining myself in God's word I find that much of PTSD I may case is bad thought patterns and I need to give those to God.

Amen!

We sin daily.

We are all tempted daily to sin, yes. But I don't see as I walk with God that my days are just as full of sin now as they ever were. Not at all. Increasingly, as God more and more conforms me to His will and way, there is a distinct and expanding decrease in the appearance of sin in my life. I will never be perfect, of course, but I can sure be a whole lot less sinful, by God's grace, than I used to think I could be.

incessant I gotcha arguing is and can be a detriment to ones walk .

Yup, I agree. But this thread wasn't intended to provide a forum for such things. I genuinely desire to help my brothers and sisters in the Lord enjoy him fully. That's why I write the things I do on this website.

I will of course poke my pastor on it and tell him I am of the clan o' Rourke that once had a county and is on the border of northern Ireland and some scott .

Hah. I come from the Scottish Dunbar-Hay clan (with a bit of the Mcleod clan mixed in). My forebears had a castle.

but giving online we often get so narrow minded we ignore the main point .ie major in the minors and minor in the major

This can happen. But sometimes the going back-and-forth can also sharpen, and illuminate, and strengthen; it's not always only argument for its own sake.
 
Amen!



We are all tempted daily to sin, yes. But I don't see as I walk with God that my days are just as full of sin now as they ever were. Not at all. Increasingly, as God more and more conforms me to His will and way, there is a distinct and expanding decrease in the appearance of sin in my life. I will never be perfect, of course, but I can sure be a whole lot less sinful, by God's grace, than I used to think I could be.



Yup, I agree. But this thread wasn't intended to provide a forum for such things. I genuinely desire to help my brothers and sisters in the Lord enjoy him fully. That's why I write the things I do on this website.



Hah. I come from the Scottish Dunbar-Hay clan (with a bit of the Mcleod clan mixed in). My forebears had a castle.



This can happen. But sometimes the going back-and-forth can also sharpen, and illuminate, and strengthen; it's not always only argument for its own sake.
Honestly I'm not against debating to learn but the internet and it's tribal effects seem to make it as I say .

In person we had lives and not the time for incessant debating to prove a point .
 
In person we had lives and not the time for incessant debating to prove a point .

I wish! I lived as a young man in the time before the internet and remember face-to-face debates among believers that were common and heated. And some of the hottest points of contention were about the stupidest of things (ie. carpet color in the church foyer). But, you are right: Christians can get preoccupied with their favorite theological "hobby-horses," riding them back-and-forth endlessly.
 
I wish! I lived as a young man in the time before the internet and remember face-to-face debates among believers that were common and heated. And some of the hottest points of contention were about the stupidest of things (ie. carpet color in the church foyer). But, you are right: Christians can get preoccupied with their favorite theological "hobby-horses," riding them back-and-forth endlessly.
I was in my early 20s .

Debating wasn't my thing but I did do a few times in school.

It's useful .but we'll case in point .I created a thread on this could be your church and posted a link to Google imagery of a mosque that was once an early 1900s church .said mosque Is connected to the pulse night club shooter .

Yet not a peep on the need to grow our church ,to witness and to toil .
 
It's only because of the atoning work of Jesus on the cross of Calvary that anyone gains acceptance with God. Having fully, perfectly paid for the penalty of our sin by the sacrifice of himself, Jesus has made a way through himself for us to be reconciled to, and accepted by, God.

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all...
Isaiah 53:5-6
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
2 Corinthians 5:21
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


When, by faith, a lost person trusts in Christ as their Savior and yields to him as their Lord (Romans 10:9-10; James 4:6-10), they are placed "in Christ" by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), who comes to live within them giving them new, spiritual life, the life of Jesus, clothing them in his perfect righteousness. (1 Corinthians 6:19-20; 1 John 4:13; Romans 13:14; Galatians 3:27; Galatians 2:20, etc.)

"Clothed" in Christ, robed in his righteousness, God sees the born-again person in him, made perfect - spiritually-speaking, not literally - in him, and thus are acceptable to God.

Ephesians 1:4-7
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

2 Corinthians 5:17-18
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ...


Only, ever, in and through Christ, is the born-again believer accepted by God as one of His own. God accepts us solely because we are in Christ. Our success in living in a holy manner, our ability to obey God perfectly has nothing to do with why God accepts us and it never has anything to do with His continued acceptance of us. For the moment our obedience, our holiness, becomes in any measure the basis for our acceptance by God, in that same measure we become a co-Savior with Christ, sharing in the means by which we are saved. Scripture, however absolutely denies such an idea:

Galatians 3:1-3 (NASB)
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

1 Corinthians 1:29-31
29 ...no man may boast before God.
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."


There is, then, no fear of being rejected by God under which the new believer need labor as they learn to walk in holiness, faith and love with Him. They are accepted in the Beloved, period. Good news, for the stumbling, struggling new believer who is, in the baby stages of their relationship with God, often falling down, as babies do!

Hebrews 13:5
5 ...for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"

Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Do you understand that for someone to lose something, they must first own it?


JLB
 
Ephesians 1:4-7
4 According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


As a long-time discipler of men, I've often heard them say, in the "new believer" stage, something like, "I keep sinning. I ask God for forgiveness, but I think I've asked too many times. I feel like maybe I'm not saved anymore, that God has cast me out of His family. How can He forgive me when I keep falling into sin? Will God take me back even though I keep messing up?"

At the heart of statements like these is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Gospel. As the great hymn "Rock of Ages" declares,

"Nothing in my hands I bring,
Simply to Thy cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress,
Helpless, look to Thee for grace:
Foul, I to the fountain fly,
Wash me, Savior, or I die."
No one comes to God with something that He needs, with something they have that He doesn't. God extends Himself to the lost person through the offer of salvation solely because of His loving, merciful, gracious nature. The idea that God sent His Son to die for us because "we were worth it" is deeply false, a lie that appeals to the very thing that keeps us from God: Self. In actuality, God reaches out to the lost individual when they are in a condition rightfully deserving of His wrathful judgment; when, in fact, they are at enmity with Him, rebels shaking their fists in His face, living constantly in defiance of His will and way.

Titus 3:3-6
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


Colossians 1:21-22
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—


Ephesians 2:1-5
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),


Of course, the lost person's evil condition doesn't necessarily manifest in overt displays of outrageous wickedness: murder, rape, theft, gross sexual perversity, etc. The average unrepentant sinner is rarely as evil as they could be, constrained by social conventions, laws of the land, and their own conscience. They look over at the Jeffrey Dahmer's, or Adolf Hitler's, or Bin Laden's of the world and comfort themselves that, however immoral they may be, they aren't anywhere as bad as these evil madmen. Under this "I'm not as bad as the worst of us" thinking, it's...difficult to accept what God says about them in the passages above. But if there is any doubt as to God's view of their sin, they need only consider the following passages:

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil,
19 A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers.

James 2:10
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.


God's standard of righteousness isn't our own. He regards a proud, arrogant look on a person's face as much a moral abomination as murder! The one who lies is as abominable in God's eyes as the murderer. The person who pits people against one another, causing strife among them, is also as abominable to God as any murderer.

In regards to God's view of the lost person the situation is worse still: God's standard for His acceptance of anyone is His own perfectly, holy, righteousness; not the worst moral monster to which we can compare ourselves, by which comparison we think ourselves pretty wonderful. No, God says to us, "Be holy as I am holy," which makes His acceptance of us, on the basis of our conduct, impossible. If we break any one of the "links" of the "chain" of God's Moral Law, we've broken the entire chain and stand as guilty before God as if we'd broken every one of the "links" individually.

So, no one comes to God for salvation having earned His acceptance of them in any measure. As the hymnist wrote, "Nothing in my hands I bring; simply to thy cross I cling."

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


Continued below.
Great post !
I love the parts about how God is so sensitive to sin.
Some don't seem to understand this and believe it's difficult to sin,
or that it's even impossible.
I think we sin every day even if we're not always aware of it.
Our thoughts and actions could be so quick.

However, yes, the more aware we are of God's great light,
the more we truly see our defects in it.
 
I wish! I lived as a young man in the time before the internet and remember face-to-face debates among believers that were common and heated. And some of the hottest points of contention were about the stupidest of things (ie. carpet color in the church foyer). But, you are right: Christians can get preoccupied with their favorite theological "hobby-horses," riding them back-and-forth endlessly.
QUILTY!

I love theology.
Too bad I don't have a big enough brain to REALLY study it.
 
I guess he thinks we beat our chest and say God I made it here with your help .

Help?
The longer I live as a saint the more I am seeing how helpless I am .

I need a new roof .refinance my house or borrow but I have a bankruptcy.

Imagine have an anger issue and you try and try but you get easily triggered .
Just try harder to be less angry or pray and let God change us ?

I'm not suggesting we ignore the commands to crucify but as I said in that other thread ,we must learn we can't and only then we see.

I'm not there yet with my problems and won't ever be Holy and sin free
 
Because it involves actually caring and that's hard ,it's easy to post an article .another to go help in church .


I'm guilty myself

Well, I'm not. It's possible to write helpful articles on spiritual living (as I love to do) and be very active in practical edification of the Church. I teach, preach and disciple a bunch of folk in two churches in addition to the writing I do. It's not all a bunch of online blah, blah, blah; and, anyway, I don't think God would allow me to carry on in such a way. He grows very...quiet when there's no life with Him backing up the things I write. Above all, though, it's that life with Him that I want and so I must live daily in the spiritual truths I share on this website. God's a real "put up or shut up" sort of Person and does not bless my efforts in spiritual things when I neglect to do what I write.
 
Well, I'm not. It's possible to write helpful articles on spiritual living (as I love to do) and be very active in practical edification of the Church. I teach, preach and disciple a bunch of folk in two churches in addition to the writing I do. It's not all a bunch of online blah, blah, blah; and, anyway, I don't think God would allow me to carry on in such a way. He grows very...quiet when there's no life with Him backing up the things I write. Above all, though, it's that life with Him that I want and so I must live daily in the truths of the things I share on this website. God's a real "put up or shut up" sort of Person and does not bless my efforts in spiritual things when I neglect to do the things about which I write.
I wasn't saying you were .
 
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