According to Jesus...

[shad]

OSAS and UR doctrines are wrong. Here is what Jesus says:

Matthew 24:12-13 (New International Version)
12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:39-41 (New International Version)
39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Matthew 24:50-51 (New International Version)
50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:11-13 (New International Version)
11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'
13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Matthew 25:28-30 (New International Version)
28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Matthew 25:45-46 (New International Version)
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Revelation 2:7 (New International Version)
7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11 (New International Version)
11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 2:17 (New International Version)
17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

Revelation 3:5 (New International Version)
5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

Revelation 3:10-12 (New International Version)
10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

 

[Danus]

Questions:

I'm familiar with OSAS, but what is UR doctrine?

What is your understanding of OSAS?

 

[shad]

UR is Universalism. It teaches everyone will be saved without being Christian.

What is your understanding of OSAS?

It teaches that you cannot lose your salvation once you become a Christian.

 

[Pard]

UR is Universalism. It teaches everyone will be saved without being Christian.

When I was younger we went to a UU church... the most liberal church in the world, full of atheists and such... no wonder it took me another 10 years to find the Lord!

 

[Pard]

are URs or UUs like Unitarians?

UU = Unitarian Universalists

 

[Adullam]

No one is saved in advance. No one wins a race in advance.

Here is a parable...

Matt 18:23-35 Therefore the Kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king, who wanted to reconcile accounts with his servants. When he had begun to reconcile, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. But because he couldn’t pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, with his wife, his children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down and kneeled before him, saying, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will repay you all!’ The lord of that servant, being moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. "But that servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, who owed him one hundred denarii, and he grabbed him, and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ "So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will repay you!’ He would not, but went and cast him into prison, until he should pay back that which was due. So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were exceedingly sorry, and came and told to their lord all that was done. Then his lord called him in, and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt, because you begged me. Shouldn’t you also have had mercy on your fellow servant, even as I had mercy on you?’ His lord was angry, and delivered him to the tormentors, until he should pay all that was due to him. So my heavenly Father will also do to you, if you don’t each forgive your brother from your hearts for his misdeeds."


Now, because the wicked servant was delivered to his tormentors...does that mean he was never forgiven his debt in the first place????

There is much faulty reasoning going on.

Does a person who survived the Titanic sinking lose his salvation if he drowns while snorkeling at a later time? "He was never saved in the first place" the evangelical smugly proclaims..... :crazy :gah

 

[shad]

No one is saved in advance. No one wins a race in advance.

That's what the Bible says. We have to be faithful to Jesus until the end for salvation. The elect are the most faithful ones who will win the crown.

 

[shad]

UR is Universalism. It teaches everyone will be saved without being Christian.

When I was younger we went to a UU church... the most liberal church in the world, full of atheists and such... no wonder it took me another 10 years to find the Lord!

Universalists are the most advanced liberal Christians.

 

[Vic C.]

are URs or UUs like Unitarians?

UR stands for Universal Reconciliation. Most people who believe and teach UR claim Christianity. They also call themselves Christian Universalists. But as was mentioned above, Unitarian Universalists don't necessarily claim to be Christians.

That's enough on UR. It has caused great controversy and intense argumentation, to the point where we had to ban discussing it outside a one on one debate.

 

[Vic C.]

No one is saved in advance. No one wins a race in advance.

That's what the Bible says. We have to be faithful to Jesus until the end for salvation. The elect are the most faithful ones who will win the crown.

Um, the doctrine of election teaches election is unconditional. If anyone believes otherwise, then they don't believe Biblical election as it most often taught.

 

[shad]

Um, the doctrine of election teaches election is unconditional. If anyone believes otherwise, then they don't believe Biblical election as it most often taught.

I am putting pieces together.

Where does it say election is unconditional?

 

[watchman F]

OSAS and UR doctrines are wrong. Here is what Jesus says:

Matthew 24:12-13 (New International Version)
12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:39-41 (New International Version)
39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Matthew 24:50-51 (New International Version)
50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:11-13 (New International Version)
11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'
13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Matthew 25:28-30 (New International Version)
28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Matthew 25:45-46 (New International Version)
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Revelation 2:7 (New International Version)
7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11 (New International Version)
11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 2:17 (New International Version)
17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

Revelation 3:5 (New International Version)
5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

Revelation 3:10-12 (New International Version)
10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

Great post shad.

 

[watchman F]

Um, the doctrine of election teaches election is unconditional. If anyone believes otherwise, then they don't believe Biblical election as it most often taught.

I am putting pieces together.

Where does it say election is unconditional?

I am with shad, nowhere does the bible say the election is unconditional..

Vic I do not want to believe election as it is taught by man, I want to believe the Bible as God has meant for it to be believed.

 

[Vic C.]

Oh, I'm net agreeing nor disagreeing. I did mean what I said though. Most of those who teach election, teach it from the Calvinist POV. A Calvinist could add much more to this that I could. I'll just mess it up.

 

[watchman F]

could someone clarify exactly what calvanists beleive for me, I have an understanding, I just want to make sure its correct.

#1 They believe humans are so evil they cannot choose God for themselves. (Total Depravity)
#2 They believe God chose some for Heaven and others for Hell, those He chose for Heaven have no choice and those He chose for Hell have not chance. (unconditional election)
#3 That Jesus only died for the elect ''Those He chose for Heaven (Limited atonement)
#4 That when the Holy Spirit draws us toward salvation we cannot say no (Irresistible grace)
#5 Everyone who gets saved remains saved (preserverance of the saints)

 

[shad]

Do most christian not beleive this?

I don't think it is most. You should know that John Calvin was militant Christian and ordered to kill non-trinitarian.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit. Christianity and viciousness should not be mixed.

 

[shad]

[quote="Mujahid Abdullah":2kwlq10s]could someone clarify exactly what calvanists beleive for me, I have an understanding, I just want to make sure its correct.

#1 They believe humans are so evil they cannot choose God for themselves. (Total Depravity)
#2 They believe God chose some for Heaven and others for Hell, those He chose for Heaven have no choice and those He chose for Hell have not chance. (unconditional election)
#3 That Jesus only died for the elect ''Those He chose for Heaven (Limited atonement)
#4 That when the Holy Spirit draws us toward salvation we cannot say no (Irresistible grace)
#5 Everyone who gets saved remains saved (preserverance of the saints)[/quote:2kwlq10s]

Thank you for your information. Now I understand where they are coming from and how they reason their ideas.

 

[watchman F]

[quote="watchman F":1phk7t9a]
#2 They believe God chose some for Heaven and others for Hell, those He chose for Heaven have no choice and those He chose for Hell have not chance. (unconditional election)

Dosent this one fall under predestination, i.e. that God has total knowledge of past, present and future, and also has dictated, before creation, what will happen in the end? therefore God ultimately has already allowed those destined for hell to go to hell, and those destined for heaven to go to heaven?
Do most christian not beleive this?[/quote:1phk7t9a]Foreknowledge and determination is two different things. Most Christians would agree that God knows the end from the beginning and allows life to play itself out, but we do not agree with the Calvinist that God has pre-determined our fates, without any choice or input of our own.

 

[watchman F]

[quote="Mujahid Abdullah":2ilyp6ro]could someone clarify exactly what calvanists beleive for me, I have an understanding, I just want to make sure its correct.

#1 They believe humans are so evil they cannot choose God for themselves. (Total Depravity)
#2 They believe God chose some for Heaven and others for Hell, those He chose for Heaven have no choice and those He chose for Hell have not chance. (unconditional election)
#3 That Jesus only died for the elect ''Those He chose for Heaven (Limited atonement)
#4 That when the Holy Spirit draws us toward salvation we cannot say no (Irresistible grace)
#5 Everyone who gets saved remains saved (preserverance of the saints)

Thank you for your information. Now I understand where they are coming from and how they reason their ideas.[/quote:2ilyp6ro]Your welcome

It is good to know why people believe what they believe. it helps you to ground yourself in the truth.

 

[Mysteryman]

UR is Universalism. It teaches everyone will be saved without being Christian.

When I was younger we went to a UU church... the most liberal church in the world, full of atheists and such... no wonder it took me another 10 years to find the Lord!

You left ? With so many sinners in need, you left ? Maybe you havn't found the Lord yet. Maybe your still looking, even though you have a desire.

Jesus came to save sinners. No wonder there is no one willing to talk and witness to those who are still lost. They feel like they found Jesus, so they run away. Reminds me of the eunch. Happy trails to you, until we meet again, happy trails to you, until we meeeet aaaaagain. < Roy Rogers sang this - :yes :D