According to Jesus...

[mondar]

Oh, I'm net agreeing nor disagreeing. I did mean what I said though. Most of those who teach election, teach it from the Calvinist POV. A Calvinist could add much more to this that I could. I'll just mess it up.

Vic, are there any Calvinists on this bulletin board? They are a scarey lot, I am always afraid that there is one lurking somewhere. (Just joking!!)

I do not blame Calvinists for teaching unconditional elections first. Luther, Hus, Wycliffe, Augustine, and the apostle Paul should take at least as much blame as Calvin. Many others could take the blame here, I recently read (if my memory serves me right) that Aquinas also taught an election based not in man but in Gods will.

Romans 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,.

There are no verses that teach that election is based on anything in man.

 

[Drew]

Romans 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,.

There are no verses that teach that election is based on anything in man.

Indeed, but we need to remember that "election" means "choice", not necessarily a choice in respect to an eternal fate. Election can equally well refer to God's choice to use a nation for His redemptive purposes. So one needs to actually make a case that the "election" we see in Romans 9:11 is an election unto personal salvation or loss.

And as you are no doubt aware, I do not believe such a case actually works.

 

[Mysteryman]

Romans 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,.

There are no verses that teach that election is based on anything in man.

Indeed, but we need to remember that "election" means "choice", not necessarily a choice in respect to an eternal fate. Election can equally well refer to God's choice to use a nation for His redemptive purposes. So one needs to actually make a case that the "election" we see in Romans 9:11 is an election unto personal salvation or loss.

And as you are no doubt aware, I do not believe such a case actually works.

Hi

"elect" means --- Chosen

"election" means ---- God's choice, not our choice = The chosen

Jesus told his disciples, that they did not choose him , that it was Jesus that chose them !

 

[mondar]

Romans 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,.

There are no verses that teach that election is based on anything in man.

Indeed, but we need to remember that "election" means "choice", not necessarily a choice in respect to an eternal fate. Election can equally well refer to God's choice to use a nation for His redemptive purposes. So one needs to actually make a case that the "election" we see in Romans 9:11 is an election unto personal salvation or loss.

And as you are no doubt aware, I do not believe such a case actually works.

Yes, I am aware, your disagreement is noted.

 

[watchman F]

UR is Universalism. It teaches everyone will be saved without being Christian.

When I was younger we went to a UU church... the most liberal church in the world, full of atheists and such... no wonder it took me another 10 years to find the Lord!

You left ? With so many sinners in need, you left ? Maybe you havn't found the Lord yet. Maybe your still looking, even though you have a desire.

Jesus came to save sinners. No wonder there is no one willing to talk and witness to those who are still lost. They feel like they found Jesus, so they run away. Reminds me of the eunch. Happy trails to you, until we meet again, happy trails to you, until we meeeet aaaaagain. < Roy Rogers sang this - :yes :D

So Mm, you go to UR church????

 

[Mysteryman]

UR is Universalism. It teaches everyone will be saved without being Christian.

When I was younger we went to a UU church... the most liberal church in the world, full of atheists and such... no wonder it took me another 10 years to find the Lord!

You left ? With so many sinners in need, you left ? Maybe you havn't found the Lord yet. Maybe your still looking, even though you have a desire.

Jesus came to save sinners. No wonder there is no one willing to talk and witness to those who are still lost. They feel like they found Jesus, so they run away. Reminds me of the eunch. Happy trails to you, until we meet again, happy trails to you, until we meeeet aaaaagain. < Roy Rogers sang this - :yes :D

So Mm, you go to UR church????[/quote]

Nope - :biglol

 

[watchman F]

When I was younger we went to a UU church... the most liberal church in the world, full of atheists and such... no wonder it took me another 10 years to find the Lord!

You left ? With so many sinners in need, you left ? Maybe you havn't found the Lord yet. Maybe your still looking, even though you have a desire.

Jesus came to save sinners. No wonder there is no one willing to talk and witness to those who are still lost. They feel like they found Jesus, so they run away. Reminds me of the eunch. Happy trails to you, until we meet again, happy trails to you, until we meeeet aaaaagain. < Roy Rogers sang this - :yes :D

So Mm, you go to UR church????

Nope - :biglol

Well goodness gracious you must not be saved then?????

 

[Mysteryman]

When I was younger we went to a UU church... the most liberal church in the world, full of atheists and such... no wonder it took me another 10 years to find the Lord!

You left ? With so many sinners in need, you left ? Maybe you havn't found the Lord yet. Maybe your still looking, even though you have a desire.

Jesus came to save sinners. No wonder there is no one willing to talk and witness to those who are still lost. They feel like they found Jesus, so they run away. Reminds me of the eunch. Happy trails to you, until we meet again, happy trails to you, until we meeeet aaaaagain. < Roy Rogers sang this - :yes :D

So Mm, you go to UR church????

Nope - :biglol

Well goodness gracious you must not be saved then?????[/quote]


LOL - I don't have to "go" anywhere.

 

[Danus]

UR is Universalism. It teaches everyone will be saved without being Christian.

What is your understanding of OSAS?

It teaches that you cannot lose your salvation once you become a Christian.

Can you tell me what that means to you as you understand it?

Are your saved by believing and or accepting that Christ died for your sins? In other words Christ paid for your salvation and upon accepting that you are saved? Correct, and that once you have accepted that you can not loose that? correct?

 

[watchman F]

Well goodness gracious you must not be saved then?????

LOL - I don't have to "go" anywhere.

Thats not what you told pard, why is he under some obligation that you do not even place yourself under?

 

[watchman F]

UR is Universalism. It teaches everyone will be saved without being Christian.

What is your understanding of OSAS?

It teaches that you cannot lose your salvation once you become a Christian.

Can you tell me what that means to you as you understand it?

Are your saved by believing and or accepting that Christ died for your sins? In other words Christ paid for your salvation and upon accepting that you are saved? Correct, and that once you have accepted that you can not loose that? correct?

Incorrect. One can receive the gift of salvation and then decide they no longer want it.

 

[Danus]

Incorrect. One can receive the gift of salvation and then decide they no longer want it.

Do you know anyone who has truly accepted Christ and then said they did not want it? I mean can you prove that somehow? I mean how can you truly be saved and then just toss it away? What would you have to do to de-accept Christ? How would you get out of your salvation once you have TRULY accepted it and can one who looses it truly say he ever had it?

If you decide you don't want your salvation, but you belong to Christ, then does he simply allow you to go on your own way like a lost sheep? He does not call you or go after you? he just says..."well then good luck...see yah!" How does God let you go once he has you?

 

[Adullam]

Incorrect. One can receive the gift of salvation and then decide they no longer want it.

Do you know anyone who has truly accepted Christ and then said they did not want it? I mean can you prove that somehow? I mean how can you truly be saved and then just toss it away? What would you have to do to de-accept Christ? How would you get out of your salvation once you have TRULY accepted it and can one who looses it truly say he ever had it?

If you decide you don't want your salvation, but you belong to Christ, then does he simply allow you to go on your own way like a lost sheep? He does not call you or go after you? he just says..."well then good luck...see yah!" How does God let you go once he has you?

Who said it was our decision to receive or lose our salvation???? The bible makes mention of...God.... who alone makes the decisions in matters of judgment. We are on trial in this life. The race is not over till we are finished here.

 

[Danus]

Incorrect. One can receive the gift of salvation and then decide they no longer want it.

Do you know anyone who has truly accepted Christ and then said they did not want it? I mean can you prove that somehow? I mean how can you truly be saved and then just toss it away? What would you have to do to de-accept Christ? How would you get out of your salvation once you have TRULY accepted it and can one who looses it truly say he ever had it?

If you decide you don't want your salvation, but you belong to Christ, then does he simply allow you to go on your own way like a lost sheep? He does not call you or go after you? he just says..."well then good luck...see yah!" How does God let you go once he has you?

Who said it was our decision to receive or lose our salvation???? The bible makes mention of...God.... who alone makes the decisions in matters of judgment. We are on trial in this life. The race is not over till we are finished here.

Watchman F says we can decide to give up our salvation. we can decide we don't want it and just turn away from it. He seems to be supported in this view. the OP states the those who believe OSAS are just wrong.

 

[Danus]

Well at one point you could have considered me "saved", but then I renounced christian beleifs, and eventually became muslim. So according to OSAS, even though I rebuke almost all of the core princibals of christianity, I am still saved? thats crazy talk.

Nope, that's not according to OSAS. That's not saved to begin with. That's someone with a said faith. Anyone can pledge their belief in something, does that mean they believe?

However, OSAS aside, if people are not always saved once they are saved, then how are they saved? How does one have and keep salvation?

 

[mondar]

Well at one point you could have considered me "saved", but then I renounced christian beleifs, and eventually became muslim. So according to OSAS, even though I rebuke almost all of the core princibals of christianity, I am still saved? thats crazy talk.

I agree, according to the Bible, one who renounces the Christian faith was never really a Christian.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

Being a Christian is much more then professing a few truths and attending Church. Too many so called Christians know little of their own faith and then being so shallow in their faith they leave the faith. Being a Christian is not a mere "get your ticket to heaven punched," and then you are good to go. A genuine faith generated by God in a man will not faith to last to the end.

 

[mondar]

[quote="Mujahid Abdullah":1znq4yh1]Well at one point you could have considered me "saved", but then I renounced christian beleifs, and eventually became muslim. So according to OSAS, even though I rebuke almost all of the core princibals of christianity, I am still saved? thats crazy talk.

I agree, according to the Bible, one who renounces the Christian faith was never really a Christian.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

so according to OSAS I was never a christian?[/quote:1znq4yh1]

Unless the doctrine of eternal security is seen together with other Christian doctrines, it can lead to wrong conclusions. The scripture teaches that when one is truly regenerated and changed by Christ, Christ will keep his salvation, and he will not loose the Christian, in fact he cannot loose him.

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

This of course does not mean that some cannot at first claim Christianity, and then later renounce Christianity. It does mean that such individuals were never really Christians. So I claim you may have claimed some sort of Christianity, certainly you were a Church going person, but were never truly regenerate.

 

[Danus]

so according to OSAS I was never a christian?

I would say correct. If you professed to be a Christian then renounced your said faith for another, you did not have it to begin with and I would say that OSAS doctrine would agree.

a lot of people have problems with the idea of OSAS thinking it's some sort of license to sin or believe whatever you want, but that's not the basis behind the doctrine. However, it's also deeper than that even.

Reformist hold a view of "imputed righteousness" that is the basis for OSAS. Christ paid for that which you can't on your behalf. The opposing view is "Infused righteousness" which says once you have your salvation you have to maintain it so to speak in order to keep it, otherwise your doomed to be condemned. Some take that as far as to say you must live a sin free life.

 

[watchman F]

Incorrect. One can receive the gift of salvation and then decide they no longer want it.

Do you know anyone who has truly accepted Christ and then said they did not want it? I mean can you prove that somehow? I mean how can you truly be saved and then just toss it away? What would you have to do to de-accept Christ? How would you get out of your salvation once you have TRULY accepted it and can one who looses it truly say he ever had it?

If you decide you don't want your salvation, but you belong to Christ, then does he simply allow you to go on your own way like a lost sheep? He does not call you or go after you? he just says..."well then good luck...see yah!" How does God let you go once he has you?

The Bible says you can fall away, the o.p. has presented scripture for this. Maybe you should read the christian unbeliever thread. You must believe all of scripture. Hypothetical argument against scripture have no place in a biblical discussion.

 

[watchman F]

[quote="Mujahid Abdullah":2tcjx1xa]Well at one point you could have considered me "saved", but then I renounced christian beleifs, and eventually became muslim. So according to OSAS, even though I rebuke almost all of the core princibals of christianity, I am still saved? thats crazy talk.

I agree, according to the Bible, one who renounces the Christian faith was never really a Christian.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

so according to OSAS I was never a christian?[/quote:2tcjx1xa]Actually the Bible teaches a true believer can turn from the faith. I personally do not no if you ever had a true conversion or not because some people do experience false conversion, while others who are truly converted fall from the faith