According to Jesus...

[Danus]

So I have accepted Christ, I belong to a church, I study the word I practice the word....what else? To what level is acceptable to Christ that we make ourselves beyond accepting Christ to be saved?

If you read the New Testament, you will know what to do as Jesus' servant. Jesus and His disciples give us directions what to do. You don't seem to have any confidence as Jesus' servant.

I'm not asking you to find out...I'm being factitious so that I might get more of your views. I'm asking you what level of obedience is acceptable to Christ to fully save you? Is it 50%, 70%, 90%...beyond accepting Christ alone what more and to what degree must you obey? You said if you slip up you loose your salvation and you must ask for it back in repentance. I say your wrong on that. I say you simply slip but that you will not loose your salvation. You will be edified, and you will most likely ask for further forgiveness, but you will not loose your salvation.

 

[shad]

Shad has a better argument in saying that we must do more than accept Christ.

Jesus says "if you love me, keep my commandments." When you say you cannot lose salvation, you are dishonoring Jesus' own words.

BTW, where did I say we have to do more than accept Jesus? Accepting Jesus means being obedient to Jesus.

 

[Vic C.]

Shad has a better argument in saying that we must do more than accept Christ.

Jesus says "if you love me, keep my commandments." When you say you cannot lose salvation, you are dishonoring Jesus' own words.

BTW, where did I say we have to do more than accept Jesus? Accepting Jesus means being obedient to Jesus.

By your definition. By my definition, it means to trust in Him and let Him be the guide in my life. One puts the emphasis on self and the other, on the Lord.

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Prov 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

 

[shad]

So I have accepted Christ, I belong to a church, I study the word I practice the word....what else? To what level is acceptable to Christ that we make ourselves beyond accepting Christ to be saved?

If you read the New Testament, you will know what to do as Jesus' servant. Jesus and His disciples give us directions what to do. You don't seem to have any confidence as Jesus' servant.

I'm not asking you to find out...I'm being factitious so that I might get more of your views. I'm asking you what level of obedience is acceptable to Christ to fully save you? Is it 50%, 70%, 90%...beyond accepting Christ alone what more and to what degree must you obey? You said if you slip up you loose your salvation and you must ask for it back in repentance. I say your wrong on that. I say you simply slip but that you will not loose your salvation. You will be edified, and you will most likely ask for further forgiveness, but you will not loose your salvation.

We better aim to be 100% obedient to Jesus. Most of us will not be 100% obedient even if we do our best. It depends on how much we mean business. Jesus will judge us how well or not so well we did. Those who are 100% obedient will be the elect.

Many of us are not committed to Jesus and are only lip serving Him. They are the ones who will be in trouble.

 

[Danus]

Shad has a better argument in saying that we must do more than accept Christ.

Jesus says "if you love me, keep my commandments." When you say you cannot lose salvation, you are dishonoring Jesus' own words.

BTW, where did I say we have to do more than accept Jesus? Accepting Jesus means being obedient to Jesus.

Right here

There is no salvation without being obedient to Jesus. The elects are the most obedient ones who will win the race. They will reign paradise earth with Jesus for 1000 years, and this is another topic.

You said that you must also be obedient for your salvation, and that ONLY...only the ones who are MOST obedient will win the race. I assume you mean gain eternal life. Now your saying that obedient means accepting Christ. I had then asked you to what level would constitute MOST obedient and you said only Jesus will judge that. So in saying that your not sure yourself what most obedient means either. How is one who accepts Christ any more obedient than anyone else who accepts Christ? Which one is saved? the more Obedient Christ acceptor I guess?

Again you can't loose what you don't have is that not a fair statement?

 

[shad]

[
By your definition.

I am only quoting Jesus' own words, not mine.

 

[Danus]

We better aim to be 100% obedient to Jesus. Most of us will not be 100% obedient even if we do our best. It depends on how much we mean business. Jesus will judge us how well or not so well we did. Those who are 100% obedient will be the elect.

Many of us are not committed to Jesus and are only lip serving Him. They are the ones who will be in trouble.

We should aim for that I agree, but if most of us, I assume who have accepted Christ? If most are not obedient enough to be saved....then what was the point of Christ sacrifice? If he only did it to gain a few?

OSAS (reformist) believe all who accept Christ in faith will be saved and gain eternal life. Rome would disagree. I'd better stop saying Rome in here or the Italians will kick me out. Good night guys. I really got to get some sleep. Sorry if I came off sounding a jerk.

 

[shad]

You said that you must also be obedient for your salvation,

That's what Jesus says, read the OP.

and that ONLY...only the ones who are MOST obedient will win the race.

I also said this is another topic. I will not get more into it.

Again you can't loose what you don't have is that not a fair statement?

I am only quoting Jesus' own words, not mine. Jesus says clearly to be obedient to Him until the end, over and over.

 

[dadof10]

Who thinks God is not capable of securing the salvation of His chosen ones? Is perseverance an "inherent" trait or is God in charge of our perseverance?

I think God is CAPABLE of securing the eternal salvation of anyone, "chosen" (whatever that means to you personally) or not. Whether He does or not is the question. I think He allows us, by His Grace alone, to cooperate in our salvation. As stated in another thread, I don't know (thank God) where that line is where God stops, so to speak, and I start, so I keep "fighting the good fight".

I think perseverance is inherent in our fallen human nature, but, like all the rest of our virtues, it's imperfect.

 

[mondar]

WOW!!!! that about all i can say. If you think those verses actually support the false teaching of OSAS then you have been indoctrinated, and someone must of did a good job of doing so.

Yes he did a great job of it and Yes I am completely indoctrinated but not of any false teachings. Yes those verses have nothing to do with the opposition to OSAS. There isn't anything you can quote in the bible to successfully argue against OSAS.

Shad has a better argument in saying that we must do more than accept Christ. You might want to let his argument take the lead for "Infused Righteousness" Rome would be proud of what he has said so far.

Danus, I want to express my agreement here. You are the one who hit the nail on the head, you correctly stated what the real issue is. Some, like myself, believe justification is by imputed righteousness through faith. I (as a monergist) would define justification as that moment when God, as the divine judge bangs his gavel and pronounces the believing sinner innocent. The basis of his pronouncement is the righteousness of Jesus; the basis is his shed blood as the propitiation of Gods wrath from the believing sinner to the work of Christ on the cross. For me, and other monergists, justification is an imputed righteousness for we are by nature nothing more then rebel sinners, and we cannot change our nature any more then a leopard can change his spots.

I think you are also right in recognizing that others proclaim a view of justification. They view justification as an infused righteousness, and that man's righteousness will synergisticly acts with God's righteousness and God's will.

I have heard the difference illustrated in this way. The "imputed" view is like a narrow bridge that goes the whole way over a dangerous river. The "infused" view is like a wide bridge that goes most of the way over, but you must make the effort to go the rest of the way. The difference is between salvation being by grace alone, and salvation being mostly by grace, but also by some human merit. There is the issue, it is not really human righteousness. I believe that regeneration will move man to faith, and also to sanctification and practical experiential righteousness. Some will fall away because they are not truly regenerate. Because God's act of regeneration is infallible, and always results in justification or salvation, there is no human merit. That is monergism. In synergism, there will always be at least some small amount of human merit.

 

[watchman F]

Danus do you want to know what do do to be saved. Deny yourself take up your cross and follow after Jesus. Lay down your wants, your needs, and live out the will of God for your life. The sad fact is most quote unquote ''believers'' are on their way to Hell, because they serve self and not Jesus Christ. The Westernized, American gospel of walk down the isle, pray this prayer, sign this card, and accept Jesus into your heart so you can get into Heaven is much different that the you must loose your life to save it gospel taught by Jesus Himself, and I believe does more damage than good. That is why we must avoid cheap caricatures of Christianity that fail to exalt the revelation of God in His word. We cannot settle for anything less that the God-centered, Christ exalting, self denying gospel taught in scripture.

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus was not speaking to atheist, heretics, or pagan. He was speaking to devoutly religious people who had deluded themselves that they were on the straight and narrow rode, when really they were on the wide road that leads to Hell. I pray we do not fall into this tap ourselves, but that we keep our gaze on Jesus as His words. Testifying only those things that God Himself has testified to in His word.

1st Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I am saved and I am 100% assured of my salvation. I am also sure that you are saved as well as anyone who accepts Christ in faith.

OSAS has nothing to do with your argument against it. I understand your argument and why some people have a hard time with it, but I've yet to find anyone who argues against OSAS who really understanding it.

Did you even read those verses if you can fall from the faith then you can loose your salvation. It is not rocket science. The bible is easy to understand. Simply reject the false teaching you have been indoctrinated into and accept God's word for what it says.

 

[Vic C.]

[
By your definition.

I am only quoting Jesus' own words, not mine.

I know, I know. Too bad when mondar and others quote Jesus, you don't stick up for them; you gloss over or ignore the verses, as if they have no bearing in the discussion.

I thank our Lord and Savior for saving me from a eternity away from Him and for doing His good works through me and trust in His promise of perseverance to the very end; some of you thank Him for allowing yourselves to participate in your salvation by taking partial credit.

It's all a matter of perspective, I guess. But I'm glad to read you all know our hearts and have rightly judged us. You all make it sound like we are still wretched sinners trying to cash in on promises that we base on a wing and a prayer. Oh, if you only knew the whole "story".

Justification and sanctification; you might want to read about them sometime. :yes

... and Watchman, take it down a step please; calling the belief of eternal salvation a false teaching may just be false accusation. Oops, that's an infraction of one of the 10 commandments and a revealing our depraved nature. :help You could lose your salvation for that! :o

 

[shad]

It's all a matter of perspective, I guess. But I'm glad to read you all know our hearts and have rightly judged us.

I am only taking Jesus' advice, and He says we know them by their fruit. Historically, trinitarians have been and still are militant, believing in chariots and horses and killing their enemies.

Christianity is a way of life, not just knowing certain verses and creeds and debating the doctrines.

 

[watchman F]

[quote="Vic C.":192f6no2][
By your definition.

I am only quoting Jesus' own words, not mine.

I know, I know. Too bad when mondar and others quote Jesus, you don't stick up for them; you gloss over or ignore the verses, as if they have no bearing in the discussion.

I thank our Lord and Savior for saving me from a eternity away from Him and for doing His good works through me and trust in His promise of perseverance to the very end; some of you thank Him for allowing yourselves to participate in your salvation by taking partial credit.

It's all a matter of perspective, I guess. But I'm glad to read you all know our hearts and have rightly judged us. You all make it sound like we are still wretched sinners trying to cash in on promises that we base on a wing and a prayer. Oh, if you only knew the whole "story".

Justification and sanctification; you might want to read about them sometime. :yes

... and Watchman, take it down a step please; calling the belief of eternal salvation a false teaching may just be false accusation. Oops, that's an infraction of one of the 10 commandments and a revealing our depraved nature. :help You could lose your salvation for that! :o[/quote:192f6no2]Any teaching that contradicts the clear teaching of scripture is false. That would include eternal security/OSAS, facts are fact why should we shrink back from the truth?

 

[Danus]

Did you even read those verses if you can fall from the faith then you can loose your salvation. It is not rocket science. The bible is easy to understand. Simply reject the false teaching you have been indoctrinated into and accept God's word for what it says.

Ok, let's go thought scripture. I will let you toss in whatever scriptures you like and we can talk about them. All I ask is that we take one or two at a time, so that we have a straightforward discussion in detail. Lets look at 1 of the scriptures you quoted. Matthew 7: 21-23.

Also before we start, let me reiterate my position and theology I guess. I hold a reformist Protestant view of Imputed righteousness. I believe that I am a sinner by my very nature and that my salvation lies solely on the blood of Christ and my acceptance of that in faith and faith alone. Nothing I do will make a difference as far as me being righteous alone by any effort I may put forth.

So, I come to Christ as a sinner. I recognize my condition. I repent and I accept Christ; that Christs sacrifice was for my salvation as well as all of mankind. All we have to do is accept it in faith and once we do that we are saved. Once we are saved we can not loose that SALVATION. We may loose our way, we may stumble, we may fall ect...but we will not loose the very thing so many Christians question.....our salvation.

So you say that is not true. You say that is a false teaching and you have given Mathew 7: 21-23 to back up the idea that it's false. Let's look at it.

Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

First what is the context? Jesus is giving the sermon on the mnt. Specifically in Chp 7 Jesus starts by addressing judging others. He gives us a string of advice. He warns us about false profits and says we will know them by the fruit they bare.... then he says 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.....so what does this mean? It seems to mean that not everyone who claims to believe will in fact believe, or be real in their faith.
Further we see.....
22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'.....This speaks of works. It's classic self righteousness....it's as if to say "did we not do good by our own efforts? I mean I called myself a Christian and I did all the things. I tried real hard!" 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' .....So are the evil doers the ones with faith? Or, the ones with said faith and works? If we get anything from this text Jesus is distinguishing between two types of Christians, if you will. Those who have faith in him for their salvation and those who have faith in themselves and their own efforts for their salvation.

So again, OSAS says that we have faith in Christ and Christ alone for our salvation and in that we are saved and we can not loose that. It has NOTHING to do with our efforts. So Mathew 7 21-23 backs up OSAS. It backs up imputed righteousness not infused righteousness. But you might say; what about the will of the father? What about doing Gods will?" yes, Gods will is that you have faith in him and not that of yourself. That's the will of God when you accept his gift of salvation. When you accept it. You can not do Gods will until you relinquish yourself in trade for faith in Jesus.

Keep in mind, that you are saying accepting Christ is not enough. You are saying that that is only part of it and that you have to ....I don;t know, be good, be righteous, walk the line, follow all the rules...do good things I guess? Your saying you have to perform after you accept.......What if your performance is substandard? I mean if you admit you are a sinner and repent aren't you already saying you can't preform? Isn't it Christ who gives you anything at all? and lastly, in order for Christ to work on you, must you not give up yourself? If you Give up yourself does that not require faith? Faith in Christ over yourself?................now these are rhetorical questions but you may answer if you like.

I think the answer is clear that faith in Christ over yourself says that your efforts to be a Christian are worthless to that of your faith. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'.....that's not it brother. That's not doing the will of God who loves you so much that he gave his only son for your salvation....not your efforts..or rules for your to follow, but freely paid for your salvation. You can not earn it. You can not do anything for it but accept it in faith and faith alone.........But, can you loose it? If you can.....How? if you can't accept Christ, nor are you accepted by Christ on your efforts.....how then can you loose Christ on your efforts if you have accepted him in faith? YOU CAN'T.

So, Mathew 7: 21-23 is saying that you are not saved by works. You will not be known by your efforts..and keeping your nose clean. 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

 

[Hawkins]

Because in the end only God knows who is actually saved, we as humans cannot determine in an absolute sense who and who are already saved. We can't see through the future to judge who and who are saved. We can only judge in accordance to the past and present to try to approach the decision on who and who are already saved. When we say this guy behaves like a Christian and he is baptised then he's saved, this is not in an absolute sense. This is a judgment in accordance to his past and presnt, but not future.

God saves those whose names are already in the Book of Life of the Lamb, once they are saved, they will not return. This is also a general truth, but not an absolute. One can always make a willing betrayal. In this case, God will remove his name from the Book of Life. OSAS is just reflect a general truth that once a person is saved, with his name already written in the Book of Life, will not return. Men can only approximately know that he's saved judging by his past and present. Only God knows whether he's actually saved as one of His Elect.

 

[shad]

Because in the end only God knows who is actually saved, we as humans cannot determine in an absolute sense who and who are already saved. We can't see through the future to judge who and who are saved. We can only judge in accordance to the past and present to try to approach the decision on who and who are already saved. When we say this guy behaves like a Christian and he is baptised then he's saved, this is not in an absolute sense. This is a judgment in accordance to his past and presnt, but not future.

God saves those whose names are already in the Book of Life of the Lamb, once they are saved, they will not return. This is also a general truth, but not an absolute. One can always make a willing betrayal. In this case, God will remove his name from the Book of Life. OSAS is just reflect a general truth that once a person is saved, with his name already written in the Book of Life, will not return. Men can only approximately know that he's saved judging by his past and present. Only God knows whether he's actually saved as one of His Elect.

Well said, amen. But you should know that that's not what Calvinists' OSAS doctrine says.

 

[Danus]

Because in the end only God knows who is actually saved, we as humans cannot determine in an absolute sense who and who are already saved. We can't see through the future to judge who and who are saved. We can only judge in accordance to the past and present to try to approach the decision on who and who are already saved. When we say this guy behaves like a Christian and he is baptised then he's saved, this is not in an absolute sense. This is a judgment in accordance to his past and presnt, but not future.

God saves those whose names are already in the Book of Life of the Lamb, once they are saved, they will not return. This is also a general truth, but not an absolute. One can always make a willing betrayal. In this case, God will remove his name from the Book of Life. OSAS is just reflect a general truth that once a person is saved, with his name already written in the Book of Life, will not return. Men can only approximately know that he's saved judging by his past and present. Only God knows whether he's actually saved as one of His Elect.

So you have no way of knowing your saved. What's the point then? Why be a Christian at all if you cannot have assurance of your salvation? You might as well write your own rules and live your own life.

That line of thinking says that; "yeah Jesus paid this ultimate price for mankind....but it does not really mean your saved. He just did that and you will have to make a big effort and be like him if you want to be saved and even then....it's not for sure." ....come on brother! That's not even predestination.

 

[Hawkins]

So you have no way of knowing your saved. What's the point then? Why be a Christian at all if you cannot have assurance of your salvation? You might as well write your own rules and live your own life.

So do I speak the truth or not?! Do you mean that we can judge? We can approaximate, which is good enough for us to do a self-estimation, by looking at our own good work at the moment.

That line of thinking says that; "yeah Jesus paid this ultimate price for mankind....but it does not really mean your saved. He just did that and you will have to make a big effort and be like him if you want to be saved and even then....it's not for sure." ....come on brother! That's not even predestination.

That won't contradict what I said. Plus that no one fully understands what pre-destination is. And we are pre-destined in a way that our names are written in the Book of Life. That's the Bible teaching, and fact.

 

[Danus]

Because in the end only God knows who is actually saved, we as humans cannot determine in an absolute sense who and who are already saved. We can't see through the future to judge who and who are saved. We can only judge in accordance to the past and present to try to approach the decision on who and who are already saved. When we say this guy behaves like a Christian and he is baptised then he's saved, this is not in an absolute sense. This is a judgment in accordance to his past and presnt, but not future.

God saves those whose names are already in the Book of Life of the Lamb, once they are saved, they will not return. This is also a general truth, but not an absolute. One can always make a willing betrayal. In this case, God will remove his name from the Book of Life. OSAS is just reflect a general truth that once a person is saved, with his name already written in the Book of Life, will not return. Men can only approximately know that he's saved judging by his past and present. Only God knows whether he's actually saved as one of His Elect.

Well said, amen. But you should know that that's not what Calvinists' OSAS doctrine says.

The only thing well said about that was what you said shad, that that is not the Calvinist OSAS doctrine. You are right on the money with that.