Bible Study Acts 21:25

[jocor]

Hi I just wanted to add that the prohibition against consuming blood predates the law covenant given to Moses. This is not something that only applied to those under the law.

The distinction between clean and unclean meat predates the flood as well (Gen 7:2).

 

[Brother Mike]

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. (1Ti 4:4-5)
​

"Nothing to be refused" "because it is sanctified by the Word". If it is not sanctified by the Word, it MUST be refused.

You don't tell people what they should be eating or judging someone else conscience. Eat what you want, be happy.

 

[jocor]

You don't tell people what they should be eating or judging someone else conscience. Eat what you want, be happy.

I am my brother's keeper. I am to judge those within the Body of Messiah (1 Cor 5:12). If I see my brother overtaken in a fault, I am to loving correct him in meekness (Gal 6:1). I am to fight against false teachings and false doctrines in the Body. You are free to eat what you want and be happy doing it. Just know there will be consequences in this life through ill health or come judgment day when we are rewarded according to our works. Note that I did not say "lose your salvation because of your works."

 

[Brother Mike]

I am my brother's keeper. I am to judge those within the Body of Messiah (1 Cor 5:12). If I see my brother overtaken in a fault, I am to loving correct him in meekness (Gal 6:1). I am to fight against false teachings and false doctrines in the Body. You are free to eat what you want and be happy doing it. Just know there will be consequences in this life through ill health or come judgment day when we are rewarded according to our works. Note that I did not say "lose your salvation because of your works."

Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
(1Co 10:29)

Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
(Rom 15:20)

OK, lets get your head on straight here.

First, Some here have a Pastor they submit to and are under them, where the Lord sent them. Some don't submit to anyone or go to church to their own shame making excuses to their own hurt, shunning the body the Lord would have them. Some here do not.

Those the Lord put under you, then they are yours, and you instruct them in the things of God. Even Paul did not step into another mans foundation laid, but that what the Lord gave him.

Your job is not to go correct people who are under another Pastor. It's their Pastor's Job to do any correcting. You also don't Judge someone else conscience for what they allow. Even I don't judge someone who I think is allowing wrong things. They are not under me.

If you do think someone who is not under you to be in error, or not of the same body.

Pray for them:
1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

The idea here is to go to them, and be with them. Not write them a letter.
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
(Gal 6:1-2)

Now, do you speak in tongues? You laying hands on the sick so they can be healed? Are you walking in faith, and in power of the Holy Spirit?
If you are not, then that is what I teach, and those under me do the same. Are you falling short in this area?

You are a forum member here, nobody is here to correct anyone as we all have the same status. Through our sharing, the Holy Spirit can correct someone by what we share, but it's not your job to correct anyone. You have the same status here as anyone else.

Mike.

 

[jocor]

Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other:for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
(1Co 10:29)

The context is eating meat sacrificed to an idol. The conscience spoken of is of someone who is concerned about idols. In context, Paul had a liberty to eat because he did not know the meat was sacrificed to an idol until the one who was conscious of it told him. At that point, it would be best to abstain. However, knowingly eating unclean meat is not a matter of conscience. It is a transgression of Yahweh’s will.

Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel,not where Christ was named,lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
(Rom 15:20)

This refers to preaching the Gospel where it was never preached before. It has nothing to do with teaching the truths found in the Word. Christian teachers teach what they believe is the truth to brethren that are not under them all around the world via books, internet, in person, etc. Are they wrong to do so or is it just me that is wrong to do so?

Your job is not to go correct people who are under another Pastor. It's their Pastor's Job to do any correcting.

There are Pastors all around that world that are failing to teach the truth to those under them because they are ignorant of those truths themselves. Yahweh does not want His people to remain ignorant. If a Pastor fails to teach the truth, Yahweh will use others to do so.

Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Zec 8:16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:​

You are a forum member here, nobody is here to correct anyone as we all have the same status. Through our sharing, the Holy Spirit can correct someone by what we share, but it's not your job to correct anyone. You have the same status here as anyone else.

I was sharing. I believe the Holy Spirit was using me to correct false interpretations of certain verses. You are fighting against the correction and therefore, come against me, the vessel being used to bring about the correction.

 

[Deborah13]

The phrase I put in blue is extremely important. Where are edible meats sanctified by the Word of God? In Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. If a meat is not sanctified for food in those chapters, it is inedible and forbidden to be eaten no matter how much you pray over it.

jocor, if swine meat was not unclean for Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, etc. why do you think it is unclean now?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The context is eating meat sacrificed to an idol. The conscience spoken of is of someone who is concerned about idols. In context, Paul had a liberty to eat because he did not know the meat was sacrificed to an idol until the one who was conscious of it told him. At that point, it would be best to abstain. However, knowingly eating unclean meat is not a matter of conscience. It is a transgression of Yahweh’s will.



This refers to preaching the Gospel where it was never preached before. It has nothing to do with teaching the truths found in the Word. Christian teachers teach what they believe is the truth to brethren that are not under them all around the world via books, internet, in person, etc. Are they wrong to do so or is it just me that is wrong to do so?



There are Pastors all around that world that are failing to teach the truth to those under them because they are ignorant of those truths themselves. Yahweh does not want His people to remain ignorant. If a Pastor fails to teach the truth, Yahweh will use others to do so.

Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Zec 8:16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:​

I was sharing. I believe the Holy Spirit was using me to correct false interpretations of certain verses. You are fighting against the correction and therefore, come against me, the vessel being used to bring about the correction.

Jocor, you are claiming that the Spirit of God is with you and not Brother Mike.
That is extremely judgmental.
To me, a Christian believer who is Jewish should be able to serve bacon to their guests for breakfast and eat it themselves.
If you are unable to do that, then there is a division in the church that Jesus does not want there.
The Gentile does not have to become Jewish.
Paul teaches that the Jew has to except the Gentile.

 

[jocor]

jocor, if swine meat was not unclean for Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, etc. why do you think it is unclean now?

The distinction between clean and unclean existed before Noah's day. Noah knew which animals were clean and unclean even though Scripture does not tell us when or how he learned that. Just because the law against eating unclean was not recorded until Moses does not mean those who preceded Moses were permitted to eat unclean. Laws against adultery and stealing were not recorded until Moses as well yet, we know the patriarchs knew such things were wrong.

 

[jocor]

Jocor, you are claiming that the Spirit of God is with you and not Brother Mike.
That is extremely judgmental.
To me, a Christian believer who is Jewish should be able to serve bacon to their guests for breakfast and eat it themselves.
If you are unable to do that, then there is a division in the church that Jesus does not want there.
The Gentile does not have to become Jewish.
Paul teaches that the Jew has to except the Gentile.

Brother Mike wrote, "Through our sharing, the Holy Spirit can correct someone by what we share, but it's not your job to correct anyone. " I simply said I "believed" the Holy Spirit was using me to share. I never said the Holy Spirit was not using Mike to share. Perhaps I am wrong and the Holy Spirit is really using Mike to correct me. Therefore, I was not being "extremely judgmental."
This issue is not about being Jewish or becoming Jewish or keeping Jewish traditions. It is about obeying the laws of Yahweh. Both Jews and Gentiles must obey His laws, not in order to be justified, but as a fruit of our salvation and love for Yahweh.

 

[Deborah13]

The distinction between clean and unclean existed before Noah's day. Noah knew which animals were clean and unclean even though Scripture does not tell us when or how he learned that.

That is true, that Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals. He knew before the flood. Scripture tells us that Noah built an altar, so Noah would have had to know that only clean animals could be offered as a sin-offering, just the same as under the Law of Moses. Gen. 7, 8:20

Just because the law against eating unclean was not recorded until Moses does not mean those who preceded Moses were permitted to eat unclean.

It appears that before the flood men didn't eat animals at all. We know that after the flood, God told Noah that man could now eat from all the animals. I don't see anywhere that changed until the Law of Moses was given to the nation of Israel. Gen. 9:2-4

 

[Sinthesis]

Particular foods, activities, people(s), things etc. do not have some inherent earthly quality that makes them acceptable or not. Rather it is the spirit in which we incorporate them into our relationship with God and/or our fellow man that determines righteousness. It is simple hospitality to aspire to be accommodating to others just as God is accommodating to us.

Mar 7:14 - And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15 - There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 - If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 7:17 - And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
Mar 7:18 - And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 - Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
Mar 7:20 - And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 - For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 - Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 - All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


Act 10:9 ¶ On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
Act 10:10 - And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Act 10:11 - And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 - Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 - And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 - But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 - And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Act 10:16 - This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.


Rom 14:13 - Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 ¶ I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there isnothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 - But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 - Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 - For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 - For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 - Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 - For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed arepure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 - It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thingwhereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 - Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 - And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eatethnot of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.​

 

[jocor]

That is true, that Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals. He knew before the flood. Scripture tells us that Noah built an altar, so Noah would have had to know that only clean animals could be offered as a sin-offering, just the same as under the Law of Moses. Gen. 7, 8:20

It appears that before the flood men didn't eat animals at all. We know that after the flood, God told Noah that man could now eat from all the animals. I don't see anywhere that changed until the Law of Moses was given to the nation of Israel. Gen. 9:2-4

Just as Noah knew, even before such a command was given through Moses, that only clean animals could be offered, he also knew that when Yahweh said, "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you," that only clean animals could be eaten.

In Gen 8:21, Yahweh said, " . . .neither will I again smite any more every thing living as I have done." Are we to understand this literally? Did Yahweh smite those in the ark or aquatic life? No. Therefore, this verse needs to be qualified by understanding it to mean, "every thing living on the ground" as is revealed in Gen 7:22; " And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." Gen 9:3 needs to be qualified as well by understanding it to mean, "Every moving thing that lives and is clean shall be meat for you."

Are we to believe that Noah could eat poisonous jellyfish, blowfish, cone shells, and centipedes, or rats, slugs, ticks, flies, and humans?

 

[jocor]

Particular foods, activities, people(s), things etc. do not have some inherent earthly quality that makes them acceptable or not. Rather it is the spirit in which we incorporate them into our relationship with God and/or our fellow man that determines righteousness. It is simple hospitality to aspire to be accommodating to others just as God is accommodating to us.

It is Yahweh that decides what is acceptable, not us.

Lev 11:45 For I am YHWH that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your Elohim: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Lev 11:46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:
Lev 11:47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

Mar 7:14 - And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15 - There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 - If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 7:17 - And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
Mar 7:18 - And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 - Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
Mar 7:20 - And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 - For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 - Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 - All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Mark 7:19 reads, "Because it enters not into his heart, but into his belly, and goes out into the draught, purging all meats." The last three words do not mean all unclean food is now cleansed. Yeshua simply meant that waste food was carried off by the digestive tract.

The scribes and Pharisees had seen the disciples eat bread without first washing their hands. This was contrary to their traditional beliefs. At that time, however, the disciples only ate clean food. Therefore, the context is eating clean food with unwashed hands. It has nothing to do with eating unclean animal flesh.

As a result of their question in verse 2, Yeshua rebukes their tradition and their hypocrisy and sums up his statements in Matthew 15:20, "These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man." Mark 7 and Matthew 15 have nothing to do with cleansing unclean meat. The issue was centered on tradition and outward ritual cleansing, which made them appear holy. But Yeshua wants us to have complete change of heart and mind, not of the outward appearance.

Act 10:9 ¶ On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
Act 10:10 - And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Act 10:11 - And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 - Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 - And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 - But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 - And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Act 10:16 - This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Peter's vision occurred about ten years after the death and resurrection of Messiah and yet, he still hadn't eaten unclean food. Why not, if the dietary law came to an end at Yeshua's death? The truth is that the law had not ended and Peter's vision did not permit him to now eat unclean. The declaration of the Apostle Peter himself in Acts 10:28 proves this: "And he said unto them, 'You know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God has shown me (in that same vision) that I should not call any man common or unclean." The vision did not cleanse all meat. It taught Peter that Gentiles were accepted into the body of Messiah and should not be looked down upon. We have no right to add our own interpretation of the meaning of this vision beyond what the Almighty said it meant.

Rom 14:13 - Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 ¶ I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there isnothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 - But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 - Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 - For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 - For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 - Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 - For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed arepure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 - It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thingwhereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 - Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 - And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eatethnot of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

The word "unclean" in verse 14 should have been translated "common", as it is from the Greek word koinos. The margin of most good study Bibles will confirm this.

When a clean animal becomes inedible for some reason it is called common or koinos. Paul's statement in Rom 14:14 referred to clean meat which a weak brother would consider common and therefore not eat, preferring instead to only eat herbs, (vs. 2). A pig is unclean of itself, it was created unclean. A goat is not common of itself. It became common in the mind of a person through outside means. The weaker brother esteemed in his own mind that meat should not be eaten because it may have become common for some reason. It is common meat that Paul was referring to, not unclean meat.

 

[Deborah13]

Gen 9:3 needs to be qualified as well by understanding it to mean, "Every moving thing that lives and is clean shall be meat for you."

Why do you ignore verse 2 and 4? Especially verse 4.
Gen 9:2 and your fear and your dread is on every beast of the earth, and on every fowl of the heavens, on all that creepeth on the ground, and on all fishes of the sea--into your hand they have been given.
Gen 9:3 Every creeping thing that is alive, to you it is for food; as the green herb I have given to you the whole;
Gen 9:4 only flesh in its life--its blood--ye do not eat.

Are we to believe that Noah could eat poisonous jellyfish, blowfish, cone shells, and centipedes, or rats, slugs, ticks, flies, and humans?

Humans are not beasts or creeping things.
All the rest were spiritually clean for food.
You appear to equate unclean with physically harmful rather than a spiritual uncleanliness. You appear to use the Law of Moses as a physical set of rules to physically live by rather than spiritual lessons that we are to live by. Moral precepts.
I'm sure you are a very moral person as well, so please don't think that I am condemning you in anyway. The only reason I challenge some of your statements is because you wish to cause others to do as you do, when the scripture does not support that they need to.

I am finding it interesting the Gentiles, like you and me, when we dwell on the old covenant law something begins to change. I see other Gentiles when they join in the modern Messianic movement rather than standing in the liberty of the new covenant getting draw into the doings of the old covenant law.
Paul said, that it was the Jews that would be drawn to Christ in the covenant of grace, by their envy of the Gentiles.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? first Moses saith, `I will provoke you to jealousy by that which is not a nation; by an unintelligent nation I will anger you,'
Deu 32:21 They have made Me zealous by `no-god,' They made Me angry by their vanities; And I make them zealous by `no-people,' By a foolish nation I make them angry.

But what I see and have experienced is what someone has termed as 'Jew envy'. It can be a slippery slope just as it was for the Christians at Galatia. We don't want to be mixing law and grace.
I only give this to you in love, as being my brother's keeper.

Shalom

 

[jocor]

Why do you ignore verse 2 and 4? Especially verse 4.Gen 9:2 and your fear and your dread is on every beast of the earth, and on every fowl of the heavens, on all that creepeth on the ground, and on all fishes of the sea--into your hand they have been given.Gen 9:3Every creeping thing that is alive, to you it is for food; as the green herb I have given to you the whole; Gen 9:4only flesh in its life--its blood--ye do not eat.

Verse 4 would refer to the flesh of clean animals. Verse 2 refers to man’s dominion over animals.

If the translation you used is correct, then verse 3 is only providing “creeping things” as food, but not beast, cattle, fish or fowl.

Even if you are correct that Noah was given unclean animals to eat, it does not change the fact that Yahweh’s covenant people were forbidden to eat unclean animal flesh. Yeshua’s death did not suddenly make those animals edible. His shed blood provided atonement for our sins, including our sins of eating unclean animal flesh. So we were forgiven of those sins and told to sin no more. In other words, we were told to stop breaking Yahweh’s laws.

Humans are not beasts or creeping things.

Are beasts “creeping things”? If “creeping things” excludes humans, then it also excludes beasts, cattle, fish and fowl. If the term means “moving things”, then all those categories are included.

All the rest were spiritually clean for food.
You appear to equate unclean with physically harmful rather than a spiritual uncleanliness. You appear to use the Law of Moses as a physical set of rules to physically live by rather than spiritual lessons that we are to live by. Moral precepts.
I'm sure you are a very moral person as well, so please don't think that I am condemning you in anyway. The only reason I challenge some of your statements is because you wish to cause others to do as you do, when the scripture does not support that they need to.

To eat unclean animal flesh is physically and spiritually unhealthy; physically because the meat is much more toxic that clean flesh and is one reason why doctor’s caution us against eating shellfish and pork; and spiritually because eating it is against Yahweh’s will.

I am finding it interesting the Gentiles, like you and me, when we dwell on the old covenant law something begins to change. I see other Gentiles when they join in the modern Messianic movement rather than standing in the liberty of the new covenant getting draw into the doings of the old covenant law.
Paul said, that it was the Jews that would be drawn to Christ in the covenant of grace, by their envy of the Gentiles.Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? first Moses saith, `I will provoke you to jealousy by that which is not a nation; by an unintelligent nation I will anger you,'
Deu 32:21 They have made Me zealous by `no-god,' They made Me angry by their vanities; And I make them zealous by `no-people,' By a foolish nation I make them angry.

The Jews were not to be drawn to Messiah and forsake Torah. They were to “keep the commandments and the faith of Yeshua”. Also, it is your perception that Gentile converts are being drawn to “the doings of the old covenant law”. It is my perception that they are drawn to the doings of the New Covenant law. The Torah that was known to all Jews in Jeremiah’s day was to be written on the hearts and minds of New Covenant believers (Jer 31:33).

But what I see and have experienced is what someone has termed as 'Jew envy'. It can be a slippery slope just as it was for the Christians at Galatia. We don't want to be mixing law and grace.
I only give this to you in love, as being my brother's keeper.

I do not envy the Jews and therefore seek to be like them. I do what I do out of love for Yahweh. I know that sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Therefore, I endeavor to not sin by breaking the law. If I do sin, I have an advocate in Messiah Yeshua.

Also, law and grace are not mutually exclusive. Paul said, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?” (Rom 6:1) and “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” (Rom 6:15).

By substituting the definition of sin found in 1 John 3:4 for the word "sin", Paul’s meaning becomes clearer.

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue breaking the law, that grace may abound?” (Rom 6:1) and “What then? shall we break the law, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” (Rom 6:15).

It is seeking to be justified by the law that frustrates grace, not keeping the law out of love for the law giver.

 

[Deborah13]

The Jews were not to be drawn to Messiah and forsake Torah. They were to “keep the commandments and the faith of Yeshua”.

So if and when the Orthodox Jews build their altar, sacrifice the red heifer, and once again offer the blood of bulls and goats, which is the Law of Moses, the Book of the Law, you will do that, too?
If Yeshua, who is now the only high priest, did not change the law, and we are obligated to follow the Law of Moses, then you will have to do this too. If you don't you have broken the Law and you know if you break it in one point, you have broken them all, you have broken the covenant. If you do not wear clothing of one fiber, then you have broken the covenant. If you do not go to Jerusalem three times a year, you have broken the covenant. We cannot pick and choose the things that we will do from the law and think that we have not broken the covenant. James is very clear about that.
Jas 2:10 for whoever the whole law shall keep, and shall stumble in one point , he hath become guilty of all;
Gal 3:10 for as many as are of works of law are under a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed is every one who is not remaining in all things that have been written in the Book of the Law--to do them,'
When you tell me that I am SINNING if I don't eat only the foods that are allowed in the Book of the Law, you are trying to put me under the 'curse of the Law'. If I don't wear clothes of one fiber, I would be sinning under the Book of the Law. Any Sin is not righteous.
Heb 7:12 for the priesthood being changed, of necessity also, of the law a change doth come,
Do we see this truth in the shadows of the Book of the Law. Yes we do. Those who had been sent to sanctuary cities had to remain there until the acting high priest died. Upon his death those in the sanctuary cities were free to live anywhere they chose.
The Law of Moses was a sanctuary until the eternal High Priest came. We no longer need that sanctuary, He is our sanctuary.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Acts 21:25 has always been a controversial passage.
Everything mentioned is a good thing to do.
But I see it as a means to bring the Jew and the Gentile together.
Paul takes all this in stride and continues on his journey.

Paul later tells us that we can do all things in Christ but not all things are to our benefit.
So if we are with people who say we should not smoke or drink or eat certain foods, then we don't do it for the purpose of uniting the people of God.
But at the same time we don't let them call it sin because the only sin against the body is sexual sin.

Those of us who understand these things need to share it with those who do not understand, but we need to share it with love, the love of God, as that is the only way.

 

[jocor]

So if and when the Orthodox Jews build their altar, sacrifice the red heifer, and once again offer the blood of bulls and goats, which is the Law of Moses, the Book of the Law, you will do that, too?

No. Yeshua fulfilled animal sacrifices for believers. Yahweh did not command the Jews today to rebuild the temple or begin sacrificing again. If that happens in the future, it will be of man, not of Yahweh.

If Yeshua, who is now the only high priest, did not change the law, and we are obligated to follow the Law of Moses, then you will have to do this too. If you don't you have broken the Law and you know if you break it in one point, you have broken them all, you have broken the covenant. If you do not wear clothing of one fiber, then you have broken the covenant. If you do not go to Jerusalem three times a year, you have broken the covenant. We cannot pick and choose the things that we will do from the law and think that we have not broken the covenant. James is very clear about that.
Jas 2:10 for whoever the whole law shall keep, and shall stumble in one point , he hath become guilty of all;

My clothes are of one fiber and now that Yahweh's name is not found in Jerusalem only, but worldwide, the feasts can now be kept worldwide. I do not pick and choose what laws to keep. I endeavor to obey every command unless it is fulfilled.

Gal 3:10

for as many as are of works of law are under a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed is every one who is not remaining in all things that have been written in the Book of the Law--to do them,'
When you tell me that I am SINNING if I don't eat only the foods that are allowed in the Book of the Law, you are trying to put me under the 'curse of the Law'. If I don't wear clothes of one fiber, I would be sinning under the Book of the Law. Any Sin is not righteous.

I am not of "the works of the law". That phrase means that a person is seeking to be justified by the law (Gal 2:16).
The "curse of the Law" is death. The death penalty has been paid by Yeshua. Therefore, there is no more condemnation for those in Yeshua. Yes, you would be sinning if you broke any law because sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). You will not be condemned to death because of it, but there are consequences whether it be ill health, loss of blessings, a lower status in the Kingdom, etc.

Heb 7:12

for the priesthood being changed, of necessity also, of the law a change doth come,
Do we see this truth in the shadows of the Book of the Law. Yes we do. Those who had been sent to sanctuary cities had to remain there until the acting high priest died. Upon his death those in the sanctuary cities were free to live anywhere they chose.
The Law of Moses was a sanctuary until the eternal High Priest came. We no longer need that sanctuary, He is our sanctuary.

There is a big difference between a city of refuge (miqlat) and a sanctuary (miqdash). I am not aware of a verse telling us the Law of Moses was a sanctuary. Do you have a verse stating that? As far as the priesthood being changed, it was changed by an oath by Yahweh long before Yeshua came.

 

[jocor]

Acts 21:25 has always been a controversial passage.
Everything mentioned is a good thing to do.
But I see it as a means to bring the Jew and the Gentile together.
Paul takes all this in stride and continues on his journey.

I agree.

Paul later tells us that we can do all things in Christ but not all things are to our benefit.
So if we are with people who say we should not smoke or drink or eat certain foods, then we don't do it for the purpose of uniting the people of God.
But at the same time we don't let them call it sin because the only sin against the body is sexual sin.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.​

This weak brother ate something, but not of faith, and it was sin. Smoking and drinking are not in the same category as eating unclean animal flesh since neither smoking or drinking is prohibited by the Law. They are certainly not expedient to do, but they are not sins since sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

 

[Deborah13]

No. Yeshua fulfilled animal sacrifices for believers. Yahweh did not command the Jews today to rebuild the temple or begin sacrificing again. If that happens in the future, it will be of man, not of Yahweh.

Glad to hear you agree.

My clothes are of one fiber and now that Yahweh's name is not found in Jerusalem only, but worldwide, the feasts can now be kept worldwide. I do not pick and choose what laws to keep. I endeavor to obey every command unless it is fulfilled.

When you say Yahweh's name was only known in Jerusalem, do you mean among the Israelites, or do you mean in Jerusalem/Judah?

I do not pick and choose what laws to keep. I endeavor to obey every command unless it is fulfilled.

My statements are not about you personally and what you do in obedience. I place not judgments or condemnation on you. Personally, I believe you are a man saved by the blood of Yeshua.

Where did the law change about going to Jerusalem three times a year? How did Yeshua fulfill that law, but not fulfill the purity laws?

The "curse of the Law" is death. The death penalty has been paid by Yeshua. Therefore, there is no more condemnation for those in Yeshua. Yes, you would be sinning if you broke any law because sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). You will not be condemned to death because of it, but there are consequences whether it be ill health, loss of blessings, a lower status in the Kingdom, etc.

Gal_5:6 for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith through love working.
Gal_6:15 for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation;
I remember you saying that if a male is not circumcised or does not circumcise his children, he is sinning.
Paul clearly says here that physical circumcision or uncircumcision gets you nothing, nothing extra, nothing taken away. We know that when Paul uses the physical circumcision he is talking about the physical things of the Law of Moses.
Gal 5:2 lo, I Paul do say to you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing;
Gal 5:3 and I testify again to every man circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law;
I know you think that you can separate the righteousness to receive justification for salvation, from the righteousness that brings sancification, or holiness/purity. But I don't see how you can do that seeing Yeshua is the one who brings both to us.
1Co 6:11 And certain of you were these! but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were declared righteous, in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.
If I am sinning eating something that is not a clean food under the Law of Moses, that means I am in rebellion against Christ, in your doctrine. But not in the new covenant doctrine. You can't tell me that our Jewish teachers, the apostles, would tell us Gentiles, that we could sin and yet they never teach eating by Moses' Law or wearing certain clothes or the big one physical circumcision.

I am not aware of a verse telling us the Law of Moses was a sanctuary. Do you have a verse stating that?

No there is no scripture that says that, that I know of. What I see in scripture though is that the law was given to the nation of Israel only. It kept them separated from the pagan nations. It was given by the God, Yahweh. So it was a sanctuary, a safe haven for them, when they stayed faithful. Just as Yeshua, and His commandments, are a safe haven for us from the evil around us.

As far as the priesthood being changed, it was changed by an oath by Yahweh long before Yeshua came.

Heb 6:13 For to Abraham God, having made promise, seeing He was able to swear by no greater, did swear by Himself,
Heb 6:20 whither a forerunner for us did enter--Jesus, after the order of Melchisedek chief priest having become--to the age.
Yeshua, being the forerunner or firstfruits of the resurrection.
The Law of Moses, coming 430 after Abraham, could not change these two unchangeable things, not the promise or the oath.
I think you believe that those who eat by the Law of Moses are purer than the one who doesn't. Please, correct me if I am wrong about this.
Sin is not purity.