Bible Study Adam and Eves sin realy a sin?

[Vice]

I mean would the child lie if there was no reason to lie? In order to sin it has to be triggered by something. And one thing that triggers it is punishment.

I don't quite your conclusion for a few reasons.

1) The Bible doesn't link PUNISHMENT as a reason for sin; it seems to link TEMPTATION as a trigger and reason for sin.

Luke 4: 1-13 - Jesus was tempted by the Devil to sin

1 Corinthians 10:13 - We encounter temptations, but God gives us a way to escape.

2 Peter 2:9 - God knows how to rescue the Godly from temptation

2) If the warning of punishment is a trigger for us to sin, then by that reasoning, ultimately GOD is responsible for Adam and Eve sinning, because he warned them about the consequences of breaking the rules before Satan could tempt them.

Genesis 2:16-17 - And the Lord God commanded the man saying "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die."

And along that same line of thinking, God is also probably responsible for triggering every single person to sin because he set the rules and boundaries for life, along with the consequence of sin.

So once again, I'm not sure how you would come to the conclusion that the warning of punishment triggers sin. If anything, your conclusion seems to add veracity to the idea that we are sinners by nature. God says "Don't do this, or else..." and we gravitate toward what we're not supposed to do.......just like children.

Just out of curiosity, do you have children?

How can a child be born a sinner? Please explain to me what a 1 week old does that is a sin?

Psalm 51:3-5
For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.
Against Thee, Thee only, I have sinned, And done what is evil in Thy sight, So that Thou art justified when Thou dost speak, And blameless when Thou dost judge.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. (NAS)

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (NAS)

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, so death spread to all men, because all sinned--for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

 

[DrDiotte]

The Bible doesn't link PUNISHMENT as a reason for sin; it seems to link TEMPTATION as a trigger and reason for sin.

What was the temptation? Could it be the temptation of getting out of a punishment?
And if so would that temptation be there if the punishment was not?


I have 3 children all boys 11,8,5
I was married under God to my lovely wife at the age of 15 and then at the age of 22 we singed the government’s contract and the only reason we did that was because we were being discriminated against and not given the same tax cuts as someone that sign the governments contract.

15 years and still going strong.

 

[Vice]

What was the temptation? Could it be the temptation of getting out of a punishment?
And if so would that temptation be there if the punishment was not?

In general, if a child lies to cover up a sin, he/ she is already compiling one sin after another. The lie is the consecutive sin to one that has already been committed. The child has already been tempted to do something that they shouldn't have done (ie, take a cookie from the cookie jar, play with "x", say "x", do "x"), and that's a sin (being disobedient to one's parent). The temptation led to sin. Any lie that they tell is just MORE sin.

So, in the case of something like a lie, removing the threat of punishment or consequences doesn't detract from the fact that the child has still sinned.

In a wider view (and a sort of reductio-ad-absurdum), would every human being stop sinning if God took away the threat of spiritual punishment? I don't think so. We're born into a sinful world, and we're sinners by nature (the verses I quoted). From birth, we have a natural inclination to sin....kind of like a broken grocery cart with a wonky wheel that keeps wanting to go in a certain direction. This is why we have to bring our children up in godly and righteous ways, but we don't have to teach them to sin; they already know how to sin.

 

[DrDiotte]

I did not say you should take away the punishment nor did I say they have told a lie.
Here let’s break my point down a little farther.

At birth a person can not speak so therefore can not lie, deceive, cheat, etc.
So up until a certain point they have no way to commit one of those things. (Sins)
Starting from that VERY moment (Time Frame) up until the time they commit one of those sins.
So now let’s understand what is going on in their life up until that time.

By natural instincts a baby will explore, touch, and anything else a baby could do. And at some point they do something they should not have done and they receive some sort of punishment from you (NO, or what ever type of punishment you do in order to try to correct them) and when they receive that they know they do not like being punished and at that VERY moment the Temptation for to lie was created and it builds as they grow.

And you are right the ability is each and every one of us to sin but that ability is NEVER used until a point when it is triggered. Now there is nothing you can do to stop this from being triggered but it does take something to trigger it so that is why I have to disagree with the notion that they are born sinners.

 

[Vice]

And you are right the ability is each and every one of us to sin but that ability is NEVER used until a point when it is triggered. Now there is nothing you can do to stop this from being triggered but it does take something to trigger it so that is why I have to disagree with the notion that they are born sinners.

If you are talking about children being born in active sin, then you might have a case for that. Babies are obviously limited in the things they can do, say, and think, and therefore extremely limited in any sins they commit (if any).

However, if you're saying that babies aren't born sinful, or with a sinful nature, or that they don't have a natural inclination to sin, then you might need to come up with some biblical support for that. The Bible seems to speak of us as being sinners and children of wrath by nature.

Psalm 51:3-5
For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.
Against Thee, Thee only, I have sinned, And done what is evil in Thy sight, So that Thou art justified when Thou dost speak, And blameless when Thou dost judge.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. (NAS)

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (NAS)

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, so death spread to all men, because all sinned--for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.