"After the counsel of His own Will" !

[savedbygrace57]

scott:

Dear savedbygrace, The NT says God does not cause of the confusion that is evil

This is what the bible says:

Eph 1:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[Scotth1960]

scott:



This is what the bible says:

Eph 1:


11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according

to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own

will:

This is also what the Bible says:

"and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation -- as also our beloved

brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also

in all his epistles, speaking in them of things in which are some things hard to

understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction,

as they do also the rest of the Scriptures". 2 Pete 3:15-26 NKJV

How do you know you are not misinterpreting St. Paul, as St. Peter warns us

that St. Paul can be misunderstood. You haven't proven that you understand

St. Paul. Just quoting St. Paul isn't enough; St. Peter warns we must not

twist his words. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[savedbygrace57]

This is also what the Bible says:

"and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation -- as also our beloved

brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also

in all his epistles, speaking in them of things in which are some things hard to

understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction,

as they do also the rest of the Scriptures". 2 Pete 3:15-26 NKJV

How do you know you are not misinterpreting St. Paul, as St. Peter warns us

that St. Paul can be misunderstood. You haven't proven that you understand

St. Paul. Just quoting St. Paul isn't enough; St. Peter warns we must not

twist his words. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

None of what scriptures you have shown deny this:

This is what the bible says:

Eph 1:


11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according

to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own

 

[Scotth1960]

None of what scriptures you have shown deny this:

This is what the bible says:

Eph 1:


11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according

to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own

Dear savedbygrace, You still have produced no Scripture that says God

makes any soul to sin. God cannot be the author of evil, or cause men not

to believe in Him. God does not work against Himself. He commands all to

believe; He wills none to disbelieve (2 Peter 3:9). St. Paul doesn't preach

Calvinism in Ephesians 1. That is your obsession. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[savedbygrace57]

scott:

Dear savedbygrace, You still have produced no Scripture that says God

makes any soul to sin.

Uh how about this one ?

This is what the bible says:

Eph 1:


11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according

to the purpose of him who worketh all things [which includes sins] after the counsel of his own

 

[Scotth1960]

Context, context, context!

Ephesians 1:9-14
9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan. 12 God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14 The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.




He is talking about BELIEVERS here--those who choose to follow after Jesus Christ by their own free will! God has a plan he is working out for His own pleasure, concerning His own people, the Body of Christ, known before the foundation of the world.

Dear friend, Alabaster is quite right about this; the context of all of Ephesians 1 must be read and considered. Don't just take one verse out of context to
be a Calvinist who tries to force on others the view that God causes "all things" including sins. Including sin. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[savedbygrace57]

Men do not have freewill because God's will of Sovereignty controls all things. How can we say we have freewill in light of this scripture Jer 10:


23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

What is this verse saying ? Is it saying man has freewill ?

 

[Nathan]

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Its interesting, if a choice is not available to man then Joshua was a nut. He put a choice before the people. Albeit, it is within God's predetermined will. But within that will, He allowed the choice to be made between good and evil.

 

[Nathan]

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

Seems that Jesus is declaring that Jerusalem "would not" when He "would". So how is it possible if God "would" do something, but someone "would not" let Him?

 

[Nathan]

Isa 1:18 ¶ Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

What does "reason" take?

"let us reason together" - yakach - verb(denotes action)

1) to prove, decide, judge, rebuke, reprove, correct, be right
a) (Hiphil)
1) to decide, judge
2) to adjudge, appoint
3) to show to be right, prove
4) to convince, convict
5) to reprove, chide
6) to correct, rebuke
b) (Hophal) to be chastened
c) (Niphal) to reason, reason together
d) (Hithp) to argue

Now if there is no will apart from God's will, then there is no need of reasoning.

 

[Nathan]

Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Interesting, "ye be willing". Do they have a choice? Not according to SBG57 theology.

If ye be willing h14
אבה 'abah
-----------------------------
and obedient, h8085
שמע shama`
-----------------------------
ye shall eat h398
אכל 'akal
-----------------------------
the good h2898
טוב tuwb
-----------------------------
of the land: h776
ארץ 'erets


As you can see, ye be willing is one word in the Hebrew language. It denotes that the person has the will in themselves. Why? Because of the "if". It denotes that a person has a choice.

 

[Nathan]

Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].

Again, a choice is given.

But if ye refuse h3985
מאן ma'en
----------------------------------
and rebel, h4784
מרה marah
----------------------------------
ye shall be devoured h398
אכל 'akal
----------------------------------
with the sword: h2719
חרב chereb
----------------------------------
for the mouth h6310
פה peh
----------------------------------
of the LORD h3068
יהוה Yĕhovah
----------------------------------
hath spoken h1696
דבר dabar

Again, one word that includes a "if" statement in it. If there is no choice, no will, then there is no need for choice or reason. It is what it is and we just live in it. But thats not the case.

There are many, many more past this. This is not the only time God has indicated and stated that man has a will to do what he choices WITHIN the overall will of God.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Again, a choice set before them. Within God's will, but left to the 'free will' of man to decide.

I call h5749
עוד `uwd
----------------------------------------
heaven h8064
שמים shamayim
----------------------------------------
and earth h776
ארץ 'erets
----------------------------------------
to record h5749
עוד `uwd
----------------------------------------
this day h3117
יום yowm
----------------------------------------
against you, [that] I have set h5414
נתן nathan
----------------------------------------
before h6440
פנים paniym
----------------------------------------
you life h2416
חי chay
----------------------------------------
and death, h4194
מות maveth
----------------------------------------
blessing h1293
ברכה Bĕrakah
----------------------------------------
and cursing: h7045
קללה qĕlalah
----------------------------------------
therefore choose h977
בחר bachar
----------------------------------------
life, h2416
חי chay
----------------------------------------
that both thou and thy seed h2233
זרע zera`
----------------------------------------
may live: h2421
חיה chayah



against you, [that] I have set - נתן nathan(this is a verb, not a noun and certainly not me...:shocked!)
1) to give, put, set
a) (Qal)
1) to give, bestow, grant, permit, ascribe, employ, devote, consecrate, dedicate, pay wages, sell, exchange, lend, commit, entrust, give over, deliver up, yield produce, occasion, produce, requite to, report, mention, utter, stretch out, extend
2) to put, set, put on, put upon, set, appoint, assign, designate
3) to make, constitute
b) (Niphal)
1) to be given, be bestowed, be provided, be entrusted to, be granted to, be permitted, be issued, be published, be uttered, be assigned
2) to be set, be put, be made, be inflicted
c) (Hophal)
1) to be given, be bestowed, be given up, be delivered up
2) to be put upon

God gives man free will to decide to love Him or not. Its a choice we have. But its limited to those two choices. There is no choice outside of that choice.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Its interesting, if a choice is not available to man then Joshua was a nut. He put a choice before the people. Albeit, it is within God's predetermined will. But within that will, He allowed the choice to be made between good and evil.

Jer 10:


23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

What is this verse saying ? Is it saying man has freewill ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

prov 16:

9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

From this scripture who determines what we will do ? Is it saying man's freewill ?

 

[Nathan]

Jer 10:


23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

What is this verse saying ? Is it saying man has freewill ?

Only within the confines of what God has set forth. The way describes what man can and cannot do. It does not describe will.

way - derek - דֶּרֶךְ - noun (happens to be my nephews name ;))
1) way, road, distance, journey, manner
a) road, way, path
b) journey
c) direction
d) manner, habit, way
e) of course of life (fig.)
f) of moral character (fig.)

It states that man is incapable of deciding for himself what He will do outside of the will of God. We see this with the accompanying verse.

Jer 10:24 Correct me, O LORD, but in justice; not in your anger, lest you bring me to nothing.

Here Jeremiah states that if God 'narrows' down the path he can go, then it will 'bring' him to nothing. Jeremiah states that he needs "correction". This correction is a "teaching" that Jeremiah wants. What is this teaching? It concerns the "way" in which he should go.

If you formed a 'dog' from sticks and created a object, you could play all day long with that object. It would be totally submissive to your will because it has no will. But the moment you stepped back, and told it to do something, guess what - its just going to sit there and do nothing.

But then take a real dog, one that has a will. It is not always going to be submissive to your will. It has a will of its own. But you can "direct" the "way" in which it lives. You can provide certain things for it to eat, while withholding other things. You can build a fence around the yard and restrict where it goes. You can even further restrict its "path" by putting it on a leash.

But all of this you can do and still allow it to have free will to do what ever it wants within that confine of your greater will. Now, take away the will from a dog. Ok, its possible, but you would have to tie it up. It could not go anywhere then. It is totally submissive to your will once again, except its a real dog this time.

But wait, now tell it to decide between going left or going right down the path your walking. There is no decision to be made for it. It is tied up and you are having to carry it. It will just look at you with big puppy dog eyes and declare "what ever you are doing I am doing". So at that point it is useless to "instruct" it in the "way" it should go. It has no will to assert, therefore no instruction is needed.

 

[Alabaster]

Jer 10:


23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

What is this verse saying ? Is it saying man has freewill ?

It means that man doesn't have what it takes to direct his own way. He is naturally foolish.

Isaiah 53:6 NLT
All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.
We have left God’s paths to follow our own.
Yet the Lord laid on him
the sins of us all.

 

[savedbygrace57]

prov 20:


24Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Who controls our steps and Goings ? Does this verse teach freewill of man ?

 

[Alabaster]

prov 20:


24Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Who controls our steps and Goings ? Does this verse teach freewill of man ?

Amplified says:
Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way?

NLT says:
The Lord directs our steps,
so why try to understand everything along the way?


We do have free will to go and do whatever, but God knows about it all and has foreknown it all since the beginning. We are just simple sheep who cannot fathom what He is up to---as natural man in our unredeemed state, that is.

 

[Who Says]

..

Here is an example of what you say savedbygrace57:

First note what Isaiah 57:20-21 says about the wicked:

Isaiah 57:20-21 "But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked."

Now notice who has the ultimate control:

Jeremiah 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:
22 Fear ye not me? saith the LORD: will ye not tremble at my presence, which have placed the sand for the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it: and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?
23 But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone.

He then exacted punishment upon rebellious Israel limiting the extent that they could get away with their rebellion.

Wicked mankind like that rebellious sea can go no further than God will allow them.

This actually ties into what we see also at the end of Revelation 12 and the beginning of Revelation 13.

Some Bibles say it was John that took up standing on the sand of the sea. Others say that it was the dragon Satan. And there is no name given in any of the texts for exactly who it was. As well it is translatable with "he" or "I". The flow from chapter 12 verse 17 makes me tend to agree with the many Bible versions that say it was the dragon. But be that as it may, the sandy shore there represents the limits God has set for wicked mankind and the beast is the response to the dragons agitation of the sea as he excites it to roar against God's established boundaries and try to persecute the woman New Jerusalem (Christ's bride) that had fled into the wilderness.

It would not really matter whether it was John standing at those boundaries observing or the dragon standing there to agitate the wicked sea of mankind. The point is still established at Jeremiah chapter 5 that the sands of the sea are used to picture the limits God sets for wicked mankind that they may go no further than He permits.

 

[Who Says]

Amplified says:
Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way?

NLT says:
The Lord directs our steps,
so why try to understand everything along the way?


We do have free will to go and do whatever, but God knows about it all and has foreknown it all since the beginning. We are just simple sheep who cannot fathom what He is up to.

The question is not do you have it; the question is how did you get it?

The evidence most strongly leans toward unlawful seizure. (Sin)

For every one thing you can point to, to claim that it is a gift of God, ten things can be pointed to, to show it is not. For every ten things you can point to, to claim it is a gift of God, one hundred things can be pointed to to show that it is not.

You are fighting a losing battle. I have lain every single scripture out in the Bible as I also did with the subject of Omniscience, and the result overwhelmingly showed free-will was an unlawful seizure. The seizure of free-will is Adam's primary sin of disobedience. Eating an apple (or, whatever fruit) would have been nothing but for that.

The only evidences you can point to all are easily shown to be God dealing with man who in sin gives resistance to giving up that wrongful seizure of free-will and so God deals with them according to their way until they can see the need to repent it.

God said "NO" and Adam had no right of free-will to challenge that until he sinned and unlawfully seized it.

If it makes you a robot not to have free-will then it would make you a robot to submit your will completely over to God. That right there proves to any God loving man's mind there is a serious problem with believing free-will was a gift of God.

Belief in free-will as a gift of God will cause many to lose their salvation as they will never fully surrender their will to God while they hold on to that rebellious belief.