"After the counsel of His own Will" !

[savedbygrace57]

wh:

I disagree, free will is needed for love.

What scripture says that ?

One needs a New Heart from God to Love God and His Brother in Christ..

deut 30:6

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

This has nothing to do with the so called freewill of man .

 

[Who Says]

whosays:



Who is that first trusted in Christ ? Paul is talking about the jewish disciples first of all, those Christ had given to Him by the Father Jn 17:

There Christ's talks about not the flesh but true Israelites by faith and tue Jews by circumcision of the heart.

Keep trying and eventually you just might get past your beliefs to see that.

It is tough to be a human with opinions in your eyes, isn't it.

Your view tries to force a fleshly nationality on the spirit. Fleshly nationalities are just Adam's condemned flesh. They go back to the dust with Adam's flesh. Once you see that you will wonder, "What was I thinking !!!"

 

[Who Says]

I disagree, free will is needed for love. We were created to love him, and could not do so without free will. Adam choose the knowledge of evil, not free will they are not the same. How many times Adam chose good before he chose evil, we have no clue. But free will had to be present in the garden from the moment he had a choice to partake in that tree. To say that we are predestined to Gods will insinuates that it was Gods will that Adam would partake of it. And thus God would be to blame for all of the sin from then till now. It convienianly leaves God to blame for all the unrightousness in the world and leaves man without fault. That sounds like Satans position to me.

The difference is that the Bible plainly says what I have said and you cannot (matter not how hard you try) find even one verse in the Bible that says what you say.

That is kind of tough, isn't it.

What do you suppose it is trying to indicate to you?

Its tough being a human with opinions in your eyes, isn't it.

 

[Alabaster]

You said, did you not, quote, "we are descended from Adam and have been created just like he was, with a free will."

I said, did I not, quote, "There is your problem showing itself blatantly again. You think you are as you should be when the truth is you are born into sin."

Did you not, by saying what you said, basically say that your will has remained normal as Adam's when he was created?

You really don't think that sin had an effect on Adam's will?

When I showed you how the last Adam Christ Jesus spoke showing he would not even so much as ever think about disobeying God and would not therefore even consider such a thing an available choice?

Do you really believe that Jesus was not demonstrating to us what the perfect Adam would have been like before he sinned?

I have said nothing that you did not reveal.

Sorry if what I said offends you.

Sorrier yet if I lose you as a brother in life everlasting.

I guess you are ignoring the curse. We are all born sinners as part of Adam's race. Adam was indeed a perfect man before he chose poorly.

We are exactly like him. We are created with all the same traits he was created with and the same powers of choice. However, we are born with a sin addiction which Jesus Christ, the second Adam, frees us from.

He didn't come to set us free from free will! He came to help us conform our will to His.

 

[Who Says]

I guess you are ignoring the curse. We are all born sinners as part of Adam's race. Adam was indeed a perfect man before he chose poorly.

We are exactly like him. We are created with all the same traits he was created with and the same powers of choice. However, we are born with a sin addiction which Jesus Christ, the second Adam, frees us from.

He didn't come to set us free from free will! He came to help us conform our will to His.

You are welcome to relish being exactly like the Adam you think was created if you desire.

I choose to pattern myself after the last Adam and see that he was how Adam was first created to be.

You cannot find even one scripture that says God created Adam to have free-will.

I keep saying that as a challenge to you. I know you can't do it. You can't do it because the idea of God given free-will is a lie.

If you are content to base that strong (dexxx) conviction of yours concerning free-will on your own opinion with no scriptural support for it, so be it.

I personally do not wish to gamble on my opinions that way. Gambling on their pride of intelligence is what the whole world does.

Produce the scriptural proof or repent of preaching what the scriptures do not preach.

 

[Alabaster]

You are welcome to relish being exactly like the Adam you think was created if you desire.

Are you saying I enjoy being born a sinner with the curse of Adam on me---like you were?

I choose to pattern myself after the last Adam and see that he was how Adam was first created to be.

Aren't you blessed!

I follow after that same Jesus who promises to lift me up and make me like Himself, and to return me to the perfect state that Adam first walked in.

You cannot find even one scripture that says God created Adam to have free-will.

God has free will. Adam was created in His image. Adam had free will. I do too.

Trying to teach people that we have no free will is Satan's agenda to cause the righteous to shut up and not use their God-given authority to move the enemy out of the way when he is encountered. It takes an act of our will to declare what is the truth and to command the enemy to move out. It takes an act of our will to consistently declare our healing, and our intentions in Christ, against the enemy who constantly opposes us...and achieve victory in any area.

Your teaching robs Christians of living out the promise to become like Christ, and to walk in His ways and to use His authority.

I keep saying that as a challenge to you. I know you can't do it. You can't do it because the idea of God given free-will is a lie.

You are wrong about that. All through scripture we are given commands to obey--or not.

If you are content to base that strong (dexxx) conviction of yours concerning free-will on your own opinion with no scriptural support for it, so be it.

You have nothing scriptural that says otherwise.

I persinally do not wish to gamble on my opinions that way. Gambling on their pride of intelligence is what the whole world does.

You exhibit a great deal of personal pride in this discussion. That is a misuse of your free will.

Produce the scriptural proof or repent of preaching what the scriptures do not preach.

You really need a makeover. Submit to God and ask for His humility to infuse you. It takes an act of the will to do that...

 

[jasoncran]

because i dont have a free will, i cant sin? or walk away from God? i have no choice but to become a christian? really, i guess those cold spells and times where i didnt care to be in church are imagined.

i know the answer from your side but i want to see what you say.

 

[savedbygrace57]

There Christ's talks about not the flesh but true Israelites by faith and tue Jews by circumcision of the heart.

Keep trying and eventually you just might get past your beliefs to see that.

It is tough to be a human with opinions in your eyes, isn't it.

Your view tries to force a fleshly nationality on the spirit. Fleshly nationalities are just Adam's condemned flesh. They go back to the dust with Adam's flesh. Once you see that you will wonder, "What was I thinking !!!"

Oh well, I see you missed my point completely..

 

[Who Says]

God has free will. Adam was created in His image. Adam had free will. I do too.[/B]

Trying to teach people that we have no free will is Satan's agenda to cause the righteous to shut up and not use their God-given authority to move the enemy out of the way when he is encountered. It takes an act of our will to declare what is the truth and to command the enemy to move out. It takes an act of our will to consistently declare our healing, and our intentions in Christ, against the enemy who constantly opposes us...and achieve victory in any area.

You have been given many scriptures already not only from myself but from others on this thread. But you have yet to support your claim with scripture.

You say: "God has free will. Adam was created in His image. Adam had free will. I do too."

Prove it. Do you want me to accept your word as though God's?

Well, evidently you do, as you next say: "Trying to teach people that we have no free will is Satan's agenda to cause the righteous to shut up and not use their God-given authority to move the enemy out of the way when he is encountered. It takes an act of our will to declare what is the truth and to command the enemy to move out. It takes an act of our will to consistently declare our healing, and our intentions in Christ, against the enemy who constantly opposes us...and achieve victory in any area."

And in saying that you show that you take authority to yourself to cast out the enemy of your own will and power which you claim to have been given in the image of God.

We are not supposed to do it that way. We are supposed to call on the authority and power of God which we ourselves are obedient to, and thus we yield place for God to work through our feeble efforts and beyond us.

You have the wrong idea of the victory God's expects of you. God expects you to gain victory not externally of others and forces outside you, but he expects you to gain victory over your self and the forces that war against the spirit within you.

You have things mixed up in your mind because deep down in you desire to be special.

 

[Who Says]

Oh well, I see you missed my point completely..

Years ago I refuted a JW who claimed that the "little flock" of Luke 12:32 were all who enter into Christ as his body. He said that the "other sheep" of John 10:16 are all the non-elect "great crowd" Of Revelation chapter 7 and that the 144,000 are that little flock.

I fought them tooth and nail on this for many years and so it became a part cause of my conviction to research that subject almost obsessively.

It took me a few years of independent study and research to come to the conclusion that this JW was on to something.

Then it took me a few more years to see that he had actually stopped short of the entire picture.

 

[Alabaster]

You have been given many scriptures already not only from myself but from others on this thread. But you have yet to support your claim with scripture.

You say: "God has free will. Adam was created in His image. Adam had free will. I do too."

Prove it. Do you want me to accept your word as though God's?

Well, evidently you do, as you next say: "Trying to teach people that we have no free will is Satan's agenda to cause the righteous to shut up and not use their God-given authority to move the enemy out of the way when he is encountered. It takes an act of our will to declare what is the truth and to command the enemy to move out. It takes an act of our will to consistently declare our healing, and our intentions in Christ, against the enemy who constantly opposes us...and achieve victory in any area."

And it saying that you show that you take authority to yourself to cast out the enemy of your own will and power which you claim to have been given in the image of God.

We are not supposed to do it that way. We are supposed to call on the authority and power of God which we ourselves are obedient to, and thus we yield place for God to work through our feeble efforts and beyond us.

You have the wrong idea of the victory God's expects of you. God expects you to gain victory not externally of others and forces outside you, but he expects you to gain victory over your self and the forces that war against the spirit within you.

You have things mixed up in your mind because deep down in you desire to be special.

You are in error. We are expected to exercise the authority of Jesus Christ He gives us whenever we encounter the enemy! We cast out sickness and disease, and demons, and tear down any other argument and stronghold that opposes Him and thinks it can stand in our way. That is our job description, and guess what? As we conform to the will of God in our lives, we exercise this anointing on us more and more and more! Our will needs to be couched in His. Praise God!

We ARE special! Kings and priests! Salt and light in this world.

You can stay sick and harassed and weak, but as for me and my house, we will walk in the authority of Jesus Christ that He desires to give us.

 

[Who Says]

because i dont have a free will, i cant sin? or walk away from God? i have no choice but to become a christian? really, i guess those cold spells and times where i didnt care to be in church are imagined.

i know the answer from your side but i want to see what you say.

That is where you confuse free-will with the power to freely make choices.

Silly, they are two different things. God's will is where true freedom is found. And your power to freely make choices when used only in accord with His perfect will keeps that power from hurting anyone, including yourself.

Will implies you say what your course will be. We are only to let God have that say and we do let him have that say if we are not foolish enough to think we can successfully plot our own course by our own will.

But either way we do it our power to make choices is there with us. Its just that one way that power to make choices is harmful whereas the other way it is not.

You said: "i know the answer from your side but i want to see what you say."

Now answer humbly and honestly, Did you really?

 

[Who Says]

You are in error. We are expected to exercise the authority of Jesus Christ He gives us whenever we encounter the enemy! We cast out sickness and disease, and demons, and tear down any other argument and stronghold that opposes Him and thinks it can stand in our way. That is our job description, and guess what? As we conform to the will of God in our lives, we exercise this anointing on us more and more and more! Our will needs to be couched in His. Praise God!

We ARE special! Kings and priests! Salt and light in this world.

You can stay sick and harassed and weak, but as for me and my house, we will walk in the authority of Jesus Christ that He desires to give us.

And in whose image do you do that? The first Adam's or Christ's?

Does that power come by your flesh and its nationality? Or by spirit coupled with the flesh and its nationality? Or by spirit apart from the flesh with its nationality?

Is that your power? Is that your authority or do you merely act as a regent to implement Christ's authority?

Come on, so long as you are confessing less get it all out in the open so it can be confronted and addressed. :yes

Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[jasoncran]

That is where you confuse free-will with the power to freely make choices.

Silly, they are two different things. God's will is where true freedom is found. And your power to freely make choices when used only in accord with His perfect will keeps that power from hurting anyone, including yourself.

Will implies you say what your course will be. We are only to let God have that say and we do let him have that say if we are not foolish enough to think we can successfully plot our own course by our own will.

But either way we do it our power to make choices is there with us. Its just that one way that power to make choices is harmful whereas the other way it is not.

You said: "i know the answer from your side but i want to see what you say."

Now answer humbly and honestly, Did you really?

i did. so this part confuses me. we are to let that implies choice thus will.why would then the apostle james and paul preach that one ought not to harden our hearts toward God.

if i choose to make my will line up with Gods is still my willfull action. thus meaning i have will to do what God wants or doesnt want.

 

[montanaviking]

Eph 1:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

11 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me.

I Timothy 2: 3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and come to knowlege of the truth.

If indeed God does work all things including salvation after the counsel of his own will and our own decision to believe or not believe has nothing to do with it, then all men will be saved. Why? Because God is not willing that any should perish. And Jesus said he would draw all men unto him and God will have all men to be saved. Thus we all will be saved because it is obviously shown by these scriptures that it is God's will that everyone get saved and we cannot resist the will of God and our choice to believe or not believe has nothing to do with it.

 

[Who Says]

I have to admit that I am confused. I thought free will meant we could make choices. If we have no free will, then how can we make choices? Maybe I misunderstand the definition of free will. Your explanation above makes no sense to me. But like I said maybe I don't understand the definition of free will. To me free will means that God allows me to make decisions. He tells me in the word what I should and should not do and I have a choice whether or not I do or do not do them. When God told Adam he could eat of every tree, but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he gave Adam a command. "Thou shalt not." Did not Adam then have the ability to choose to obey God or disobey God? Is not that ability to choose "free will?" Again, maybe I just don't understand your definition.

That is one of the primary reasons this subject is so important to me. I have closely dissected Paul's letters and came to see how the dominant theme behind everything he talks about is love. How we see things affects how we implement what we believe in either a way that upholds love or a way that is counterproductive to love.

Paul's emphasis was upon not detracting from the beauty of God's loving message of grace, especially toward those who yet need to become believers. And that is not done with mis-placed kindness that translates to permissiveness but by balancing our views of what God is actually asking of us in the things that He asks. Thus we see that though Paul plainly said if one gets circumcised in accord with the Mosaic Law (the point being one's frame of mind in doing so) that Christ would not benefit them. (Galatians 5:2) But then we see that Paul took Timothy and had him circumcised to keep from stumbling the Jews they were getting ready to preach to. (Acts 16:3)

The doctrine of free will and also the doctrine of Omniscience are the two greatest trouble makers in this world today when it comes to discouraging thinking people from listening to the message of Christ. By the millions men say that if God has foreknowledge of every detail of every single thing before he even created man and yet then made man to have free-will, then God to them is not respectable as he knowingly and purposely orchestrated that man would sin and then punishes man for it.

Even among those who manage faith in God despite these beliefs, those beliefs have resulted in a whole host of varying beliefs concerning God that are untrue.

So we are not talking about some unimportant thing here. If we be wrong in teaching those beliefs we are the biggest and blindest fighters against God. So we absolutely must prove those beliefs or discard them as plagues.

It as a relative freedom that God made you to be able and make decisions. Does that have to mean that God made you to have an entirely free-will? This is where I favor saying God designed us to have a God governed will. He is the synchronization for the use of our will and we were not designed to leave Him out of our will. Our choice is yet free but governed so as to not become harmful. Is that not what you would expect from a God of love who has no delight in seeing his children hurt?

That the more in the world could accept. But the way it is, what we have taught convinces them that is not how it is. And so now it is hard to get them to see that they were merely taught a poorly thought through view that is not completely true. And I assure that God is not pleased with us for this.

No where in the Bible does it call those trees in Eden a test. James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"

I am become equipped by God's mercy of late to explain what those trees where about. But it would be too long a discussion here. It also involves a short debate about what the animals were really like before Adam sinned and some have emotional views on that which render it difficult for them. That discussion makes the entire OT sparkle for its pictorial use of animals. But I assure you, our loving God had everything set up there in Eden in a very loving way because of his love for His children whom He made in His image.

To thoroughly discuss it I would have to start another thread.

 

[jasoncran]

you need to clarify that first before assuming that men have wills. we have to yeild to him for that to work for us.

that is that whole in that . one has to make himself serve god and that is by prayer and God helps

but that isnt where i'm coming from.men have the choice to say no to god. or yeah. if not then does god make us serve him or not?

 

[warhorse]

Are you saying I enjoy being born a sinner with the curse of Adam on me---like you were?

Aren't you blessed!

I follow after that same Jesus who promises to lift me up and make me like Himself, and to return me to the perfect state that Adam first walked in.

God has free will. Adam was created in His image. Adam had free will. I do too.

Trying to teach people that we have no free will is Satan's agenda to cause the righteous to shut up and not use their God-given authority to move the enemy out of the way when he is encountered. It takes an act of our will to declare what is the truth and to command the enemy to move out. It takes an act of our will to consistently declare our healing, and our intentions in Christ, against the enemy who constantly opposes us...and achieve victory in any area.

Your teaching robs Christians of living out the promise to become like Christ, and to walk in His ways and to use His authority.

You are wrong about that. All through scripture we are given commands to obey--or not.

You have nothing scriptural that says otherwise.

You exhibit a great deal of personal pride in this discussion. That is a misuse of your free will.

You really need a makeover. Submit to God and ask for His humility to infuse you. It takes an act of the will to do that...

Agreed , Jesus, the second Adam had free will
Isaiah 7v14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and CHOOSE the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and CHOOSE the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

And so did Israel
Due 30 v15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

 

[Alabaster]

And in whose image do you do that? The first Adam's or Christ's?

Does that power come by your flesh and its nationality? Or by spirit coupled with the flesh and its nationality? Or by spirit apart from the flesh with its nationality?

Is that your power? Is that your authority or do you merely act as a regent to implement Christ's authority?

Come on, so long as you are confessing less get it all out in the open so it can be confronted and addressed. :yes

Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

If you are not walking in the Spirit's power, you are walking in the flesh.

 

[Who Says]

you need to clarify that first before assuming that men have wills. we have to yield to him for that to work for us.

that is that whole in that . one has to make himself serve god and that is by prayer and God helps

but that isn't where I'm coming from.men have the choice to say no to god. or yeah. if not then does god make us serve him or not?

First off, I have never said God makes us serve Him. I have said we were created for the specific purpose that we serve Him.

You rhetorically stated, "men have the choice to say no to god. or yeah. if not then does god make us serve him or not?"

Ask yourself, 'Is it God's will that I choose not to serve Him?'

And if you answer that is not God's will that I choose not to serve Him, then:

Ask yourself, 'Does it really then make sense that God would give me an ability to will for that purpose?'

But it is at that point that most confuse themselves by reasoning, "Yes, because it was necessary for me to be able to love Him.' And that is not sound reasoning. They have only decieved themselves to think it is.

Let's look deeper at that.

Ask yourself, 'Is that not like saying, I first have to be able to hate you or I cannot love you?' Why would you ever need to hate God?

OK, so you think hate is too strong a word? Hate in the Bible often merely means to oppose or not cooperate with someone. That is its verb or adjective sense. It is not always a noun describing an emotion.

Do you need to ever be able to say no to someone who is never wrong? Someone as perfect as God? Why would you desire such a freedom?

Ask yourself, 'Does it make sense that God created me with an ability to will so that I could say no to him if I desire to?' If that were true then wouldn't he be wrong to then punish you for saying no?

If you get punished for the thing you do then you evidently were not free to choose to do it. And God never gave you a will to be used to do it.