Am I saved; or am I fooling myself?

[jgredline]

As I read around the many threads on this board, something that has really been bothering me is this. Too many believe that works are a part of being saved. ''Grace + works does not = Saved'' I am astounded at this JW mentality here...

Folks. Let me state my position and then lets look at it step by step.
The bible clearly teaches that we are ''saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ'' Thats all....Being saved will produce good works, but your salvation is not based on keeping the 10 commandments or the continuation of doing good works as the scriptures will prove.

Now lets be clear. This is not about election but I do know that it will come up and its cool, but use scripture to support your view.

This is not about Calvinism or Armenianism so don't even go there. You may use certain points as they relate, but use scripture to back them up.


Now before we begin, lets look at some verses. I will be using the nkjv. I know to some, that by me using the nkjv will mean that I am not saved :wink:

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:13
For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

John 3:15-21
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

 

[Jon-Marc]

I have no problem with any of that--even if it was the New KJ. :

 

[unred typo]

You need to post a warning on the top of your post: ‘Construction zone… cunningly devised fables ahead.’

Why don’t you take an entire chapter or book in context instead of yanking out some scantily worded phrases to slap onto your theories?

Where does the following fit into your theology?
Romans 2:6-8 (NIV)
God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Matthew 6:15
But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Repeated in Mark 11:26
But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

:-?

 

[golfjack]

reply

Good post Jg. I have a hard time understanding why it is that some want to complicate this precious free gift of salvation. It's as simple as ABC. I guess it punctures the ego of many. They seem to think that they have a better way to heaven. Some get involved in, Why did God do this or that. It is so simple: Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father, but through Me. Then some want to question the Trinity, and try to reason this out with their minds, which is impossible to grasp the depth of the Trinity. And lastly, some go to old time teachers and preachers and follow their teachings blindly to the point of making it seem like they take stupid pills.

Salvation is far too important top mix it up with all the foolishness that some can come up with. I believe we have to pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand the Word of God. It takes a long time and to be sure there are many babes in Christ who if they don't go to church and study and meditate on God's Word, who if they stay babes in Christ, the enemy will devour them up annd spit them out.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[Oscar3]

UnRead Typo

Wow, I guess you are really feeling convicted right about now.
I feel really, really sorry for you my lost friend

First Mr UNREAD
Don't be a hypocrite. Your upset because you believe that Good works are saving or will save you. This is very obviouse by your other post you make and then you go through this verse Romans 2:6-8 out of context. Talk about the Pot calling the kettle black :-?

This section of Scripture starts in Chapter 1:18 and contines to chapter 2 verse 11

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.


God's Righteous Judgment

2 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Now as for the two VERSES YOU TOOK OUT OF CONTEX ROM 2:6-8
According to this verse, it seems that eternal life can be gained by doing good. But Romans clearly teaches justification by faith (3:22). But Paul does not contradict himself. The subject of this verse is judgment, not justification. Believers who continue in good works will receive rewards in the life to come. Whenever the New Testament speaks of eternal life as a present possession, it is a gift received by faith (John 3:16); but whenever it refers to eternal life as something to be received in the future by those who are already believers, it refers to eternal rewards (see 5:21; Gal. 6:8; 1 Tim. 6:17; Tit. 1:2; 1 Pet. 1:7). Rewards will be based on works accomplished here on earth.

Un read is a good name for you, because people should not read your junk.
You really need to come and accept this free gift of eternal life.

Has Dave... not taught you anything?

 

[unred typo]

golf jack wrote:
Salvation is far too important top mix it up with all the foolishness that some can come up with.

Well, don’t forget the preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that perish. Which is exactly what I’m preaching. Which is exactly what Jesus preached. Do you remember him? Thorny brow, holes in his palms? Maybe you could explain how it can be that what Jesus taught is no longer relevant to his so-called ‘followers’.
:roll:

 

[jgredline]

You need to post a warning on the top of your post: ‘Construction zone… cunningly devised fables ahead.’

Why don’t you take an entire chapter or book in context instead of yanking out some scantily worded phrases to slap onto your theories?

Where does the following fit into your theology?
Romans 2:6-8 (NIV)
God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Matthew 6:15
But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Repeated in Mark 11:26
But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

:-?

Unread
Why am I not surprised to see you here :wink: Its cool. My prayer is that you and others will see that works will not save you. As far as the two verses you quoted, its pretty obvious that you are not familiar with that part of scripture. I don't have time right now to address how out of context they are but hopefully a Christian will address them. If not I will see you this evening on line.

 

[jgredline]

Jack
Thanks for the encouragement and look forward to YOUR input as I know you understand this simple Gift.

This thread is likely to get ugly because it will questions ones belief as It has unread Typo already.

 

[jgredline]

Now as for the two VERSES YOU TOOK OUT OF CONTEX ROM 2:6-8
According to this verse, it seems that eternal life can be gained by doing good. But Romans clearly teaches justification by faith (3:22). But Paul does not contradict himself. The subject of this verse is judgment, not justification. Believers who continue in good works will receive rewards in the life to come. Whenever the New Testament speaks of eternal life as a present possession, it is a gift received by faith (John 3:16); but whenever it refers to eternal life as something to be received in the future by those who are already believers, it refers to eternal rewards (see 5:21; Gal. 6:8; 1 Tim. 6:17; Tit. 1:2; 1 Pet. 1:7). Rewards will be based on works accomplished here on earth.

Un read is a good name for you, because people should not read your junk.
You really need to come and accept this free gift of eternal life.

Has Dave... not taught you anything?

Great post Oscar !!!!
You saved me the time.

 

[unred typo]

Jgredline wrote:
Why am I not surprised to see you here :wink: Its cool. My prayer is that you and others will see that works will not save you. As far as the two verses you quoted, its pretty obvious that you are not familiar with that part of scripture. I don't have time right now to address how out of context they are but hopefully a Christian will address them. If not I will see you this evening on line.

I’m praying that you will see (finally, eventually, soon) that I am not preaching that works will save you. Works will not, repeat NOT, undo your sin. Without the blood, your sin would never be erased, you would be lost, doomed, without hope. Got blood? Then you can have your sins forgiven, if you forsake them and confess them as sin.

Looking forward to your 'enlightening' of those familar verses.

:wink:

 

[TanNinety]

I agree with your above post completely unred typo. I have only this to add.

Being saved will produce good works, but your salvation is not based on keeping the 10 commandments or the continuation of doing good works as the scriptures will prove.

Matthew 5:17 "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them. 18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
20 "But I warn you-unless you obey God better than the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees do, you can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven at all!

You are treading on dangerous ground jg and I say this with utmost sincerity. We have had our difference about many things in the past but what you are saying here that one doesn’t have to keep the 10 commandments for salvation is a dangerous teaching.

Salvation and eternal life come through Yeshua alone and I completely agree. But He said “I am the wayâ€Â, “Walk through the narrow gateâ€Â, He did not say “I am the free rideâ€Â, “I’ll drive you through the narrow gateâ€Â. There is a walk involved. This walk will either take you through the broad gate because you think heaven and earth passed away and you don’t have to keep the commandments of God or this walk will bring good fruits of your work as you enter through the narrow gate.

There were goats who thought they didn’t have to work and were surprised and questioned Yeshua about when they saw any need that needed to be filled. There were sheep that filled a need yet didn’t know they were doing it unto Yeshua.

Since Revelation is the culmination of the triumph of Yeshua, why don’t you do a word search on “works†and “faith†and see what was used mostly when the judgment was passed, works or faith?

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The above is being said to the churches not to unbelievers. Just because you are part of the church doesn’t guarantee you the tree of life. It is written you have to overcome. Oh my, yes you have works of faith to overcome sin. Believe me, one will not be eating from the tree of life even if one belongs to a church and is still continuing in the works of sin rather than works of God.

Don’t believe that to overcome means to work? Read on

Revelation 2:5 Look how far you have fallen from your first love! Turn back to me again and work as you did at first. If you don't, I will come and remove your lampstand from its place among the churches.

Wonder what removing of the candlestick is about?

Some question in ending. Can anyone be really sure about their faith without works? If some even had the faith to cast demons out and prophecy in Yeshua's name, why were they denied entrance into the kingdom of heaven?

 

[guibox]

UnRead Typo
I feel really, really sorry for you my lost friend
Un read is a good name for you, because people should not read your junk.
You really need to come and accept this free gift of eternal life.

And once again the 'favorite poster boy' of some on this forum comes through again with wit and wisdom. :roll:

Oscar, I sure wish I had your connections to get away with half of what you say. It is unfortunate that you spoiled your otherwise thoughtful post with this ignorant rhetoric that you amazingly are allowed to get away with.

 

[jgredline]

Tan
Are you saying for the sake of clarity, that one must keep the 10 commandments in order to be saved or continue to be saved?

I am asking because this is too serious an issue to make assumptions.
I will address your post in more detail as soon as you answer this question so I don't waste time. Thanks


Oscar.
Guibox is right. I missed that jab you snuck in there. While your explanation was good, that Jab took away the credibility from a good answer and truthful answer.

 

[mutzrein]

And once again the 'favorite poster boy' of some on this forum comes through again with wit and wisdom. :roll:

Oscar, I sure wish I had your connections to get away with half of what you say. It is unfortunate that you spoiled your otherwise thoughtful post with this ignorant rhetoric that you amazingly are allowed to get away with.

Yeah beats me that a person can get away with that but when you see a Mod telling him how great his post is, is it any wonder?

Shouldn't those who claim to know what salvation is, who claim to know the grace of God, who claim to have faith, who claim to know and preach the gospel, actually demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit by which they say they are born?
I'm looking for fruit of the Spirit - even words seasoned with grace but what do we see? Put-downs & innuendo.

It should not be guys.

 

[unred typo]

Oscar3 wrote:
“Now as for the two VERSES YOU TOOK OUT OF CONTEX ROM 2:6-8
According to this verse, it seems that eternal life can be gained by doing good. But Romans clearly teaches justification by faith (3:22). But Paul does not contradict himself. The subject of this verse is judgment, not justification. Believers who continue in good works will receive rewards in the life to come. Whenever the New Testament speaks of eternal life as a present possession, it is a gift received by faith (John 3:16); but whenever it refers to eternal life as something to be received in the future by those who are already believers, it refers to eternal rewards (see 5:21; Gal. 6:8; 1 Tim. 6:17; Tit. 1:2; 1 Pet. 1:7). Rewards will be based on works accomplished here on earth.â€Â


I stand by my interpretation. Romans 3:22 “even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[a] who believe. For there is no difference;†doesn’t change the context of Romans 2:6-8. We attain the righteousness of Christ through faith in his blood, by repentance and confession of sin, by believing and trusting that when we turn from sin and ask for forgiveness, he really does forgive us. Your clever separation of pre and post salvation gifting doesn’t even appear in scripture, only in your rendition of it. The separation made in scripture is made between those who obey Christ and those who ignore his commands. Either you are sowing to the flesh, following your own greedy desires or you are sowing to the Spirit and walking according to the commands of Christ to love and forgive one another. See how well it fits with the other verses you list: (for those of you who don’t like to read long posts, you may quit here.)

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. You’re supposed to obey your Lord, or why would you call him ‘Lord’? By regular repentance and confession of sins, you become righteous by Jesus Christ’s blood.


Galatians 6:8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

1 Timothy 6:17 Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Jesus' ministry began with the marvelous message, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand ( Matt. 4:17). In Hebrews 2:3 we have a question that no can answer: How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? The Phillipean jailer asked Paul and Silas, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? They had the answer: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved ( Acts 16:30, 31). Had the jailer asked, What must I do to be lost? They would have replied, Nothing, because you are already lost. Jesus said, For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned ( judged); but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God ( 3:17, 18).

Salvation is more than great; it is so great for the following reasons:

1. It was preached by the Lord Jesus Christ. He said to Zacchaeus, Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; for the son of man has come to seek and to save that which was lost ( Luke 19:9, 10).

2. After His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension, the Lord Jesus Christ sent the Holy Spirit to proclaim salvation to the lost through the apostles and all believers ( John 16:7-15; also Acts 1:8).

3. This salvation is the only salvation. Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved ( Acts 4:12).



May God bless, golfjack

 

[TanNinety]

Thanks for asking me to clarify before you responded JG.

Your question:
Am I saved; or am I fooling myself?

Scripture answers:
James 1:22 And remember, it is a message to obey, not just to listen to. If you don't obey, you are only fooling yourself.

What are we to obey?
James 1:25 But if you keep looking steadily into God's perfect law-the law that sets you free-and if you do what it says and don't forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it.

I know you want me to come out and say the answer that everyone is obviously expecting from me so you can ease in with the rebuttal

Here is your question again:
Am I saved; or am I fooling myself?
Here is an answer from James:
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
What do you think James' answer to his rhetorical question would be? A resounding NO. Faith and works are inseparable. And yes if you have faith and no works then yes, you are fooling yourself.

Oscar, here is some scripture for you to meditate upon, James 1:26 If you claim to be religious but don't control your tongue, you are just fooling yourself, and your religion is worthless.

Conclusion:
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
James says faith alone is DEAD. Will dead faith get you into kingdom of heaven?

 

[unred typo]

Very good point, Tan.
They are quick to ask their rhetorical question, “Can a man that is dead in sin do anything to please God?†Why don’t they delight to ask if a faith that is dead can do anything?

:-?

 

[Oscar3]

Tan
You ignored the Question that Jg asked.

Here it is again

Tan
Are you saying for the sake of clarity, that one must keep the 10 commandments in order to be saved or continue to be saved?

I am asking because this is too serious an issue to make assumptions.
I will address your post in more detail as soon as you answer this question so I don't waste time. Thanks

 

[lovely]

Sometimes in the faith-works threads, I am not sure what we are disagreeing about exactly. I apologize for being dense, and confused. I may be missing something.

Are some saying that we are justified by faith without works, and able to call it faith...is dead faith the nature of a believer? Did Jesus not tell us that if we love Him we must keep His commandments? Do not all the laws and the prophets hang on two? How will our faith, and God's love, be perfected in us if we are not called unto good works in Christ?

And are others saying that we are justified by works alone, even without faith? Does one (can one) earn, or deserve, atonement by following the law? What happens when we fail to follow it all, or sin? Does the atheist enter in because he does good? Does the Jew, who does not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, enter in because He obeys the Torah?

What is dead faith? What are vain works done in condemnation? Are they not equal in that they characterize the nature of the unbeliever? I wonder if we read things that aren't in the posts of others in these threads.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
showing that salvation in Christ is a thing prophesied of old
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The Lord bless all of you.