An old question- Was Jesus God?

[ourforgiveness-com]

Greetings Brother,

Here is yet another controversial topic: Is Jesus God?

What saith the scripture?

Philippians 2:5-9:

5“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”
***Paul begins by telling us to have the mind of Jesus. What follows is a comparison of the mind that Jesus had.

6“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”
*** The (Who) is Jesus. Jesus is of God, he is not a creation like you and I, or like the Angels, or even Satan. This little keyword (of) is telling you that Jesus has life in himself as God has life in himself. **see(John 5:26). Jesus is (of) God, (as) God, but he is not God.
The verse continues on to say that Jesus (thought it not robbery to be equal with God); In other words, although Jesus is as God (for he was not created) never did it occur to him to be equal to God (to be very simple minded, is like having two identical beings, but yet, one (the Son) sees that the other (the Father) greater than he, even though, they are of the same. Look, go to John 14:28 “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” Jesus is telling you that he has a headship. Again, look at 1 Corinthians 11:3 : “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”
And Again, See Psalms 110:1 : “(A Psalm of David.) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” The LORD (is God the Father) and the Lord (is our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son). you can cross reference this with Matthew 22:44 / Mark 12:36 / Luke 20:42. And Paul said in 1 Corinthians 8:6 “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

7“But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:”
***So, although Jesus was equal with God, he humbled himself and became a servant, in the likeness of men (The son of God became flesh); “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” Jesus said in John 6:38 : “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”


8“And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

9“Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:”


Again...

John 5:26-27
26“For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;”

***The word (as) is not synonymous to the word (like). Consider the following verse in Genesis 25:25: "And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment: and they called his name, Esau." Surely, Esau was not an actual hairy garment, but rather, looked like a hairy garment. (As) is an express image of something or someone; Identical. For this reason the verse goes on to say that Jesus has life in himself as God. This clearly debunks and answers the argument about God being three in one, or the Son of God being a created being (like us), or the Son being God, or a God.

27“And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.”
***Because The Son of God became flesh, God has also given him the authority to Judge the world, otherwise, one would argue and say: why are we being judged by someone that never was human. Jesus said in Matthew 28:18 “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”


In closing, I would like to ask, why do we continue to believe that There are three Gods, or that There is one God in three? Honor the Son as your Lord, and your Heavenly Father as your God. I have taught you (not I, but the wisdom of the Lord).

May the Love of God, and the Grace of our Lord, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

[ourforgiveness-com]

(EDITED)​

Here is yet another controversial topic: Is Jesus God?

What saith the scripture?

Philippians 2:5-9:

5“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”
***Paul begins by telling us to have the mind of Jesus. What follows is a comparison of the mind that Jesus had.

6“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”
*** The (Who) is Jesus. Jesus is of God, he is not a creation like you and I, or like the Angels, or even Satan. This little keyword (of) is telling you that Jesus has life in himself as God has life in himself. **see(John 5:26). Jesus is (of) God, (as) God, but he is not God.
The verse continues on to say that Jesus (thought it not robbery to be equal with God); In other words, although Jesus is as God (for he was not created) never did it occur to him to be equal to God (to be very simple minded, is like having two identical beings, but yet, one (the Son) sees that the other (the Father) greater than he, even though, they are of the same. Look, go to John 14:28 “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” Jesus is telling you that he has a headship. Again, look at 1 Corinthians 11:3 : “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”
And Again, See Psalms 110:1 : “(A Psalm of David.) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” The LORD (is God the Father) and the Lord (is our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son). you can cross reference this with Matthew 22:44 / Mark 12:36 / Luke 20:42. And Paul said in 1 Corinthians 8:6 “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

7“But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:”
***So, although Jesus was equal with God, he humbled himself and became a servant, in the likeness of men (The son of God became flesh); “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” Jesus said in John 6:38 : “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”


8“And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

9“Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:”


Again...

John 5:26-27
26“For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;”

***The word (as) is not synonymous to the word (like). Consider the following verse in Genesis 25:25: "And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment: and they called his name, Esau." Surely, Esau was not an actual hairy garment, but rather, looked like a hairy garment. (As) is an express image of something or someone; Identical. For this reason the verse goes on to say that Jesus has life in himself as God. This clearly debunks and answers the argument about God being three in one, or the Son of God being a created being (like us), or the Son being God, or a God.

27“And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.”
***Because The Son of God became flesh, God has also given him the authority to Judge the world, otherwise, one would argue and say: why are we being judged by someone that never was human. Jesus said in Matthew 28:18 “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”

Furthermore...

2 Corinthians 5:17-18
17“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”
***Paul is making a comparison between man and Christ; that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation/creature.

18“To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”
***Did you notice the same comparison was made between God and Christ; God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. But this should be of no surprise; In John 14:8-9 “Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.” “Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?”. God was manifested in the flesh (by way of his Son); Jesus is the image of God. The word (image) was first used in Genesis 1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” (Likeness) is to be similar, but not identical. However, Jesus is the image of God: “In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:” (Colossians 1:14-15)

Hebrews 1:1-3 give a stronger emphasis to the word image.
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,”
“Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”
“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;”

1 Timothy 3:16
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
***What is Manifest? It is an error to say it means to incarnate. Look at Luke 8:17, this verse properly defines the word (manifest): “For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.”
***to manifest is to reveal. God was revealed/manifest through his Son (who became flesh)

Finally, unless you read the KJV1611, you might disagree with the following, but you will see that it all ties well.

In John 20:28
And Thomas answered, and said unto him, My Lord, and my God.
***There is a comma after the word (Lord). Thomas was identifying both, his Lord (Jesus), and his God (the Father). *see John 14:9

likewise in 2 Peter 1:1
“Simon Peter, a servant and an Apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious Faith with us, through the righteousness of God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ:”
***This is another verse that also has a comma after the word (God) in the 1611 KJV. And there are more, but this should answer some of your questions.

In closing, I would like to ask, why do we continue to believe that There are three Gods, or that There is one God in three? Honor the Son as your Lord, and your Heavenly Father as your God. I have taught you (not I, but the wisdom of the Lord).

May the Love of God, and the Grace of our Lord, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

[EJStevens65]

I have always love the OT Godhead/Trinity verses; were the Word speaks these words:
16) Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there Am I: and now the Lord GOD, and His Spirit, hath sent Me.
17) Thus saith the LORD thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I Am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Isaiah 48:16-17

 

[Prycejosh1987]

For years I thought everybody knew (like me) that Jesus wasn't God because he himself made it clear that he wasn't, but more recently I've discovered that a lot of people think he WAS God!
Why don't they believe him?

The gospel of john refutes things that people naturally think about Jesus. When they say he was not God and that he is a normal man or that he was a moral teacher or just a prophet. The gospel of John shows Jesus as the Son of God with complete authority.

 

[Susannah]

For some people the Bible is not enough. For me I had to have a visitation followed by a spiritual awakening to understand God was more than a prophet. That he was a Son of God and he was resurrected. Some people like me are just hard headed. But God doesn't give up on us. He is the Hound of Heaven. (That is a famous poem about Jesus.)

 

[SovereignGrace]

There is hierarchy in God. There aren't multiple gods, but God and a hierarchy that exists in God.

The Father is almighty........then the Son.........then believers.

John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. ~talking to Holy Spirit filled believers.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 For he (the Father) "has put everything under his (the Son) feet". Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him (the Son), it is clear that this does not include God (the Father) himself, who put everything under Christ. When he (the Father) has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him (the Father) who put everything under him (the Son), so that God may be all in all.

This proves that Jesus is God and yet under the Father.

I know this is a rather dated post but I want to address a point made in the above. ”There is hierarchy in God.” If there is an hierarchy in God, then they are not co-equal.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I know this is a rather dated post but I want to address a point made in the above. ”There is hierarchy in God.” If there is an hierarchy in God, then they are not co-equal.

Correct.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 For he "has put everything under his feet". Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him (Jesus), it is clear that this does not include God (the Father) himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him (the Father) who put everything under him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all. - - - - -God will be in believers who are under Christ - - -"John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

 

[SovereignGrace]

Correct.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 For he "has put everything under his feet". Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him (Jesus), it is clear that this does not include God (the Father) himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him (the Father) who put everything under him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all. - - - - -God will be in believers who are under Christ - - -"John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

My point, my apology for not being more clear, is if the Son and Father are not co-equal, then there is no Trinity. The Trinity teaches all Three are God, are all co-equal, are all co-eternal. If there is a heirarchy in the Godhead, then there is no Trinity. Jesus, in the incarnation, voluntarily submitted to the Father. But this submission was only in His incarnation.

 

[WIP]

My point, my apology for not being more clear, is if the Son and Father are not co-equal, then there is no Trinity. The Trinity teaches all Three are God, are all co-equal, are all co-eternal. If there is a heirarchy in the Godhead, then there is no Trinity. Jesus, in the incarnation, voluntarily submitted to the Father. But this submission was only in His incarnation.

I think this is one of the mysteries of the Trinity that we find so hard to understand for we have pride, whereas, God, the Father and God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit do not suffer from pride.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I think this is one of the mysteries of the Trinity that we find so hard to understand for we have pride, whereas, God, the Father and God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit do not suffer from pride.

Well, I don’t think it’s as much a mystery as some say it is. Yes, we will never truly grasp the Godhead in these fallen bodies with finite minds. Yet, there is more than enough compelling evidence for the Trinity, imo. I think Matthew 3:13-17 is quite compelling evidence. Then there’s the High Priestly prayer in John 17, too.

 

[OzSpen]

I know this is a rather dated post but I want to address a point made in the above. ”There is hierarchy in God.” If there is an hierarchy in God, then they are not co-equal.

SG,

I can't accept the premise that hierarchy eliminates persons being equal. In all my places of employment, there was a hierarchy of persons. One was the boss, another was a deputy manager, and I was a worker who was pleased to have a job.

In all of these positions, there was equality of personhood. Hierarchy of position does not eliminate co-equality of persons.

In the Godhead, there is co-equality in personhood and different functions for the persons of the Trinity.

Oz

 

[SovereignGrace]

SG,

I can't accept the premise that hierarchy eliminates persons being equal. In all my places of employment, there was a hierarchy of persons. One was the boss, another was a deputy manager, and I was a worker who was pleased to have a job.

In all of these positions, there was equality of personhood. Hierarchy of position does not eliminate co-equality of persons.

In the Godhead, there is co-equality in personhood and different functions for the persons of the Trinity.

Oz

Hierarchy: a system or organization in which people or groups are ranked one above the other according to status or authority.

In the Trinity, One is not above the other.

From gotquestions:

Question: "How can there be subordination / hierarchy in the Trinity?"

Answer: It may sound strange to speak of subordination within the Trinity. After all, Jesus and the Father are “one” (John 10:30). Subordination makes us think of a lower rank or a subservient position. To understand how there can be subordination in the Trinity, it is important to understand that there are different types of subordination. The biblical or orthodox view of the triune nature of God acknowledges an economicsubordination in the Trinity but denies the heretical view of an ontologicalsubordination.

What does this mean? Simply that all three Persons of the Godhead are equal in nature. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit all have the same divine nature and divine attributes. Contrary to the teaching of many cults, there is no ontological subordination (no difference in the nature of the three Persons of the Godhead). This means that the Trinity is not comprised of greater and lesser gods; rather, there is one God existing eternally in three co-equal Persons.

What the Bible does teach is an economic (or relational) subordination within the Trinity. The three Persons of the triune Godhead voluntarily submit to each other respecting the roles They perform in creation and salvation. So, the Father sent the Son into the world (1 John 4:10). These roles are never reversed in Scripture: the Son never sends the Father. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is sent by Jesus and “proceeds from the Father” to testify of Christ (John 14:26; 15:26). And Jesus perfectly submitted His will to the Father’s (Luke 22:42; Hebrews 10:7).

Economic or relational subordination is simply a term to describe the relationship that exists among God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Essentially, economic subordination within the Trinity refers to what God does while ontological subordination refers to who God is.

Biblically, all three Persons of the Trinity have the same essence, nature, and glory, but each One has different roles or activities when it comes to how God relates to the world. For example, our salvation is based on the Father’s power and love (John 3:16; 10:29), the Son’s death and resurrection (1 John 2:2; Ephesians 2:6), and the Spirit’s regeneration and seal (Ephesians 4:30; Titus 3:5). The different tasks that we see the Father, Son, and Spirit perform are the result of the eternal relationship that exists among the Persons of the Trinity.

The issue of subordination within the Trinity is nuanced, and the distinction between ontological and economic subordination is fine indeed. Theologians within Christian orthodoxy continue to debate the limits of subordination and its relation to the Incarnation of Christ. Such discussions are profitable as we study the Scriptures and think through the truth about the nature of God.

How can there be subordination / hierarchy in the Trinity? | GotQuestions.org

How can there be subordination in the Trinity? What is subordinationism? Is there hierarchy in the Trinity? If the Father, Son, and Spirit are equal, how can there be submission amongst the Trinity?

www.gotquestions.org

So, there is submission within the Trinity, but that doesn’t need to be conflated into being an hierarchy.