aiki said:
Hey, Mike!
You wrote:
You neglect to notice Romans 11:30-32, which says a lot about these vessels fitted to destruction. The original Greek reads "for as ye also once did not believe in God, and now did find kindness by the unbelief of these: so also these now did not believe, that in your kindness they also may find kindness; for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness." (Young's Literal Translation.) Please notice that from the context of the preceding verses, it can only be the olive branches who were cut off--these hardened and blinded "vessels fitted to destruction"--who are spoken of as finding kindness in verse 31.
A couple of things that occured me as I thought on what you wrote:
In verse 14 of chapter 11 Paul writes,
"If by any means I may provoke to emulation them who are my flesh (the Jews), and might save some of them." (italics mine) Paul doesn't say, "All of them", only "some of them". Also, in verse 5 of the same chapter Paul writes of,
"...a remnant according to the election of grace". A remnant is only
a part of something -- in this case the nation of Israel. Connected to all this is the thought that a vessel which is fitted to destruction, but which is not destroyed, is not actually, then, a vessel fitted to destruction. In other words, Jews grafted into the vine of Christ were never vessels fitted to destruction, but are the "some who are saved" or the "remnant" of which Paul writes in verses 5 and 14 of chapter 11. Pharaoh is given as an example in Romans 9 of what is meant by a "vessel fitted to destruction". He met with destruction both temporally (in the Red Sea) and eternally (in Hell). There was no redemption for him. Besides all this, Paul writes in chapter 11 very plainly about what has happened to some of the unbelieving Jews past and present. They were "cast away" and "broken off". Also, when Paul uses the word "all" in speaking of the Jews in the end of chapter 11, he is meaning National Israel. As one commentary puts it: "Not necessarily every individual, but enough individuals to make the believers in Christ representative of the nation (Israel)." (Wycliffe Bible Commentary)
God bless!
P.S. - Thanks, Judy for the encouragement! :D
In Christ, Aiki.
Your argument starts with Paul's desire to provoke some of his brethren to envey, and your comments can only be answered with a verse by verse commentary starting there.
In v 13 Paul speaks of his hope that envy of what the Church has, will bring Jews into the church. There is an exhortation here to do that which would make others envious. The exhortation is to reveal the Love of God to all men.
Sadly the persecution of the Jews by the Church has not created that envy, quite the opposite.
For most of the last 1900 years, the visible church hated the Jews, despised the Jews and tried to exterminate the Jews. The Nazi holocaust was the culmination of a long history of Christianity's hatred toward the Jews. The Nazis were not Christians. But much of their philosophical view of the Jews was clearly defined by Christian teachers such as Martin Luther.
But the Jews are still here because God isn't finished with hardened Israel. The Jews were the only allegedly false, non-christian religion from apostolic times that survived the European Christian empire. The pagans were destroyed or were forced underground.
Paul, writing of himself and other Jews who founded the church, continues:
16 If the part of the dough offered as first fruits is holy (Paul and the other Jews who founded the church), then the whole batch is holy; (All of hardened Israel, the Jews) if the root is holy, so are the branches.
The root, the Lord, is Holy. So are the branches both ingrafted (the true church) and even those which have been cut out (the Jews) as follows:
17 If some of the branches have been broken off (the Jews ), and you (the church), though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others (the Gentiles who came into the church) and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. (The Jews. One should note that the church has done that boasting now for 1900 years. In blood).
If you do (as the church has), consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off (the Jews) so that I (the predominantly Gentile church) could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they (the Jews ) were broken off because of unbelief, and you (the church) stand by faith.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches (the Jews ), he will not spare you either. (He will not spare the church either).
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell (The Jews ultimately fell in a war with Rome that lasted from 70-135 AD ), but kindness to you (the church), provided that you continue in his kindness.
Note that the above is conditional on continuing in that kindness. Men should soberly reflect on how they go about doing that because:
Otherwise, you also will be cut off. (That day may be VERY SOON) …Paul continues:
23 And if they (the Jews) do not persist in unbelief, they (the Jews) will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them (the Jews) in again.
Note: They won't persist in unbelief and they will be grafted in again. Here is how that happens:
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. (Zechariah 12:10 NIV)
Continuing from Romans 11:
24 After all, if you (the church) were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches (the Jews), be grafted into their own olive tree!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited (But the church did become conceited): Israel (the Jews and the Church) has experienced a hardening in part (the Jews being the hardened part) until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Here Paul speaks of a mystery, (a part of God's plan that had not previously been revealed). Israel is divided into 2 parts. The church is one part the other part is hardened Israel (the Jews).
Note the conditional nature of the time here; UNTIL the full number of the Gentiles has come in. Speaking of the Jews the Lord said:
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:24 NIV)
Here the Lord goes from the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD until the end of this age. The only piece of Jerusalem today trampled on by the Gentiles, is the site of the Lord's temple in Jerusalem.
Something is happening. Who has eyes to see? We are one very small piece of real estate away from the end of this age (a very special piece of real estate, the mount where the ancient temple of God once stood).
So what happens to _ALL_ Israel (hardened and not)....
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
That is ALL Israel. All that has been hardened and all that was not…Continuing:
27 And this is my covenant with them (the Jews) when I take away their (The Jews' ) sins." As far as the gospel is concerned, they (the Jews) are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they (the Jews) are loved on account of the patriarchs,(Romans 11:28 NIV)
Every person who has been part of hardened Israel over the last 1900 years will be with God in eternity. God's grace is not a matter of one's confession of faith, but of God's grace alone. (Back to Romans 3:1).
29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Unlike men, God does not make idle promises.
One might argue that salvation cannot come apart from faith in Christ. That is true. But note Romans 3:3 and that life does not end at the grave for any man.
Paul concludes his discussion of Israel:
30 Just as you (The Gentile church) who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their (the Jews') disobedience, 31 so they (the Jews' ) too have now become disobedient in order that they (the Jews') too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:32 NIV)
http://flyservers.registerfly.com/members5/jimober.com/
: :roll: .
