Bible Study And yet another thread on baptism...

[handy]

I know that baptism threads are usually put in Apologetics and Theology...but I'm posting here because I truly don't want this to become yet another never-ending debate...it's a specific question to a specific view on baptism. All I'm asking for is for those who hold to this particular view to provide some Scriptures to explain why they believe it...that's all. :nod

Some quotes:

Baptism is an outward showing to the world that we have taken Christ as Lord and Savior.

Baptism in many churches is the outward profession of that inner change when you are born again.

Where is the scripture basis for the view that baptism is an "outward profession".

I see it all the time...and have yet to see some solid scripture support on this...mainly because every time the question gets raised it dwindles into another "does baptism save"....

NOT THE POINT OF THIS THREAD!!!!

Actually, for anyone who doesn't believe that baptism is an outward profession of an inner change...no reason to even bother with the thread.

But...for those who do believe this...Scriptures please!!!!

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Misapplication alert, misapplication alert

1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism does not remove the filth of our flesh but is simply what is done to show that we have a good standing/conscience before God.

 

[handy]

1 Peter 3:21-22 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-30447">22</sup> who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

In this text I see/read/understand that baptism is an appeal to God for something...namely a good conscience.

The word that is translated as "appeal" is the word, "eperotema" which is defined as:

1) an enquiry, a question
2) a demand
3) earnestly seeking
a) craving, an intense desire




No further commentary here....still just looking for thoughts on why many churches define baptism as "an outward profession".

 

[handy]

Come on...one of the most commonly accepted views on what baptism actually is...


...and no one can give a scriptural basis for it?

 

[Elijah674]

Hi, I see the whole chapter of Matt. 10 for what it means to be [IN CONFESSION] of Christ. See Matt. 18:17-18 for 'binding in heaven' by the Church membership!

And it was commanded of Saul (Paul) in Acts 9:6 to find out.. when he inquired of what was he was to do, from Christ? And Christ sent him to His Organized Church & he was Baptised into membership. verse 18. From that time on he was hated by his old ex/friends. I see it as mandatory when it is possible. The person that surenders their all to Christ WANTS the word to know of their Choice as I see it.

Surely you will find others with many more verses for your question. But Matt. 28:18-20 surely is mandatory.

Matt. 10
[32] Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
[33] But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
[34] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
[35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
[36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
[37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
[38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
[39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

--Elijah

 

[FrustratedForumer]

Christians believe that the blood of Jesus Christ, shed on the cross, provides the sole basis for the forgiveness of sin. Therefore, salvation occurs only when a person places his or her faith in the death and resurrection of Christ as the sufficient payment for his or her sin.

If you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, then you are ready to be baptized. Your baptism is an outward expression of your obedience and your opportunity to show others that you have accepted Christ and are now walking with Him.

Baptism is a way of showing others that you have entered into a relationship with Jesus Christ. It symbolizes what took place in your heart at the time of salvation:

• Accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
• Shared in His death and resurrection, illustrated by going under the water (dead to your old life), then rising again (new life).
• Were symbolically washed clean and sins were forgiven by His death on the cross.

Because Jesus instructed us to be baptized, baptism is an act of obedience. While it is not necessary for salvation, it demonstrates submission to God.

"The Scripture plainly declares that without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), and that the sinner is justified by faith apart from works (Romans 3:28). By what means, then, does the sinner receive faith? Again the Scripture is very plain: "Faith cometh be hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). It is impossible to have faith in that concerning which one has never heard. Therefore one must first hear the gospel of salvation which is contained in the Word of God before he can believe. But the Word of God is not merely a book which relates certain facts about God and His salvation. The Scriptures are able to make one wise unto salvation (2 Tim. 3:15). "For the Word of God is quick (alive), and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword" (Hebrews 4:12). "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Peter 1:23). "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth" (James 1:18). These Scriptures indicate that the Word of God not only relates facts but that it is powerful and able to generate faith in those who hear. However, we should not make the mistake that some have, in supposing that there is some magical power in the Bible which operates by itself in producing the results previously mentioned, or that the power in the Bible is due merely to the moral power of the truths it contains. The Word is called the sword of the Spirit; that is, it is the implement which [God] the Holy Spirit uses. The Holy Spirit moved upon men to write the Word and in the hand of the [Holy] Spirit the Word becomes a living and life-giving Word. As far as revelation is concerned, the Holy Spirit always works through the Word, and He uses the Word, not in a mechanical way, but in a personal, sovereign way as it pleases Him.​

"It appears evident, therefore, that in this present dispensation [age] the means that God uses to impart salvation to the sinner is the Word of God empowered by the Spirit of God received by faith apart from ceremonial works--[or any works for that matter!]. The fact that multitudes of sinners have received Christ and have manifested the grace of God in their lives entirely apart from and before receiving water baptism is evidence that the grace of salvation is not conferred through baptism" C. Baker. Bold emphasis added.​

"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Corinthians 1:17). The Apostle Paul​

Baptism, What is it?

That like as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection (Romans 6:4,5).

Our water baptism pictures our burial with Christ in His death.

Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death (Romans 6:4).
​

As we allow ourselves to be submerged below the surface of the baptismal waters, we are enabled, in some small measure, to appreciate what our Lord passed through in order to save us from the penalty of our sins and the power of our sin.
We are henceforth better able to understand and comply with His statement to us,

Likewise, reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin (Romans 6: 11).
​

Now we can know something more of His bitter anguish and cry on our behalf:

The waters are come into My soul. I sink in deep mire where there is no standing. I am come into deep waters where the floods overflow me. Reproach hath broken my heart, and I am full of heaviness. I looked for some to take pity, but there was none, and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me gall for my meat, and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink (Psalms 69:1-3; 20,21). Again He cried, Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with Thy waves (Psalms 88:6,7).
​

3) Our Lord was not only delivered for our transgressions, but He was raised again for our justification (Romans 4:25). Praise the Lord!

When we are brought up out of the waters of baptism, we are picturing our resurrection from the dead -- in Him.


Hence our baptism not only consists of immersion in water, submergence under water, but emergence from the water to complete the picture of our spiritual baptism in union with the Lord Jesus.
As He arose from the dead, to live in the power of an endless life, so we are to reckon ourselves alive unto God in Christ Jesus, our Lord (Romans 6:11).
In this new position of life from the dead, the Word says to us,

Let not sin, therefore, reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in its lusts. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin, but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God (Romans 6:12,13).
​

​

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Baptism is a subject that gets "talked around" a look with people asserting their feelings in place of facts. Why not simply look to the NT and find every instance where baptism is discussed, and viewing these mentionings of baptism in the given context, let the scriptures tell us what it is and what it's for. How hard is that?

 

[FrustratedForumer]

T over T, this is a weak cop out at least. Should we not be able to discuss these things in the manner of which the OP desires?

 

[handy]

Baptism is a subject that gets "talked around" a look with people asserting their feelings in place of facts. Why not simply look to the NT and find every instance where baptism is discussed, and viewing these mentionings of baptism in the given context, let the scriptures tell us what it is and what it's for. How hard is that?

T over T, this is a weak cop out at least. Should we not be able to discuss these things in the manner of which the OP desires?

I guess I should explain what I'm trying to get at here...I would like to really examine baptism and what it actually is...

So, what I'd really like to see is indeed a list of verses...preferably the whole text, not just the reference...BUT, only those that support the idea that baptism is an "outward profession".

Why not the ones that seem to support the idea that baptism is far more than an "outward profession", but a means by which God imparts His saving grace? Because, I already a lot of source data on that interpretation.

However, as many times I've heard that baptism is an "outward profession"...I've never seen all that much Scriptural support for the idea. Forgive me FrustratedForumer, but most of the time, when asked for scriptural support for the "outward profession" definition, the proponent usually does exactly what you just did...give an dissertation on "faith alone" as opposed to give texts on what baptism is.

I don't want to see this thread become another thread on how it is faith alone that saves (although the article was well written!)...nor that baptism saves...but rather just the simple scriptural support of why we should believe that baptism is an "outward profession of an inward change".


Not that I want no commentary at all, but let's try to keep it brief enough, just why the poster believes that a text should be interpreted as an "outward profession".

A very good example would be:

Our water baptism pictures our burial with Christ in His death.

Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death (Romans 6:4).​

Since how to view baptism is one of the greatest schisms in the Body, I do realize the desire to truly expound upon why we believe the way we do by it...but yes, T/T has put his finger on my idea for this thread, just the scriptural evidence that the folks who believe that baptism is an "outward profession".

 

[Elijah674]

Acts 2

[36] Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

[37] Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

[38] Then Peter said unto them, **Repent, and be baptized** every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(and surely this was not done in a closet because of it being VERY UNPOPULAR?! but in front of mankind)

[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

[40] And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
(This to me, was to be openly seen & required as a commandment. Again Matt. 28:19-20)

[41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
....

[47] Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (and again, Acts 9:6 + verse 18)

It does not seem to hard for one to 'THINK' just a 'little' and see what was needed to be done [OPENLY] to get one added to the Church to me???

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Dora :waving

I noticed you quoted me, but that quote doesn't fully reflect my beliefs, for it says, "Baptism in many churches...". It was a general statement. I don't profess to know the inner working of the Christian baptism outside of it being an act of obedience. I say this because I question why someone would not want to be baptized if they are fully capable of being immersed. (I am Baptist, so I do subscribe to the act of full immersion based on the Greek word for baptize)

I do realize there are those that for whatever reason, some people cannot be immersed. Thinking outside the "box", could it be possible that the baptism of Jesus covers these individuals? From any doctrinal POV, He did not need to be baptized, which brings me to my next statement.

To understand the reasons for the ritual, or ordinance of baptism and it's origins, search the word mikvah.

 

[reba]

Good ol Pentecostal dunking for baptism... BUT there are a few verses giving comfort maybe to those who can't dunk!


Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Num 8:7 And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean.

 

[Vic C.]

I understand Dora is looking for scriptural evidence and I'm sure some here will scrounge up a verse here and there. But it may not be that simple, seeing it is just as much conceptual as it is contextual.

This is why I suggested studying the history of baptism and it's roots.

I found this to be interesting:

The Deeper Meaning of Mikvah ~ Water Baptism

 

[Elijah674]

I understand Dora is looking for scriptural evidence and I'm sure some here will scrounge up a verse here and there. But it may not be that simple, seeing it is just as much conceptual as it is contextual.

This is why I suggested studying the history of baptism and it's roots.

I found this to be interesting:

The Deeper Meaning of Mikvah ~ Water Baptism

Good post Vic, is Daniel Baptist? This verse of Col. 2:12-13 surely finds buried meaning BURIED, huh! --Elijah

"Having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of Elohim, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, Elohim made you alive with the Master. He forgave us all our sins." Colossians 2:12-13

 

[handy]

Thanks for the link, Vic.

However, I must say that it substantiates the idea that baptism is far more than an "outward profession" but rather a vital part of God's redemptive work in us. I could almost see my pastor, a Lutheran through and through, pointing to this as a supplemental to the catechism teaching on why we are to be baptized.

Still not seeing the "outward profession" part.

The way I understand it, the whole "outward profession" theorizes that baptism is strictly symbolic in nature...that there is nothing particularly "spiritual" about it, it is just a means by which we Christians can openly profess our faith in Christ. Which leads some to believe there is no vital reason to do it...and there are many Christians, some on this forum, who don't believe baptism is necessary for Christians to do.

Because this view that baptism is wholly symbolic is very widespread in the Church...and it is a view that is totally against what many churches teach baptism is (a vehicle of God's saving grace), I'd like to try to get a handle on why some churches go with the idea of it's being wholly symbolic.

When I read the history of Mikvah, I hardly see a "symbolic" act taking place.

But, I still would like to see more passages as to why we should look at baptism as being a symbolic act...an "outward profession"...as opposed to something that God is very, very busy with while we are submitting to getting "plunged".

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks for the link, Vic.

However, I must say that it substantiates the idea that baptism is far more than an "outward profession" but rather a vital part of God's redemptive work in us. I could almost see my pastor, a Lutheran through and through, pointing to this as a supplemental to the catechism teaching on why we are to be baptized.

Still not seeing the "outward profession" part....

... and you won't "see" it from me. There could very well be more to it than simply being symbolic. Listen, I was "Christened" by the RCC when I was an infant, but when I was saved, I felt compelled to be baptized in a more Biblical way. :yes

So, I can't offer up what you want your posters to offer in the way of Biblical evidence confirming this outward profession. This is why I suggested the outward profession belief is more conceptual than it is contextual.

Hey, I would say the same thing about the Trinity. :yes

I'll be on the side reading. You don't need me sidetracking the topic. There's plenty here that could do that much better than I! :D

 

[reba]

Symbolic jesters in times past had value and deep meaning... Sadly we tend to disregard them today.

A pledge of marriage was binding
A handshake sealed a contract
A mans word could be counted on

We see the 'world' in our churches in many ways and the devaluation of rituals to nothing but symbolism is a sad part of our world.

 

[Elijah674]

... and you won't "see" it from me. There could very well be more to it than simply being symbolic. Listen, I was "Christened" by the RCC when I was an infant, but when I was saved, I felt compelled to be baptized in a more Biblical way. :yes

So, I can't offer up what you want your posters to offer in the way of Biblical evidence confirming this outward profession. This is why I suggested the outward profession belief is more conceptual than it is contextual.

Hey, I would say the same thing about the Trinity. :yes

I'll be on the side reading. You don't need me sidetracking the topic. There's plenty here that could do that much better than I! :D

Hi, you amaze me! You left out 'any slight hint even for sun sacredness' being scripture conferred? Maybe handy will get around to that also?;) (and on the side non/sidetracking? me to!
--Elijah)

 

[handy]

Hi, you amaze me! You left out 'any slight hint even for sun sacredness' being scripture conferred? Maybe handy will get around to that also?;) (and on the side non/sidetracking? me to!

I might...if I had the slightest idea of what you're talking about!

 

[handy]

Reba,

I understand you.

And, I think there is a lot to compare between baptism and things like giving one's word, shaking a hand...and most especially marriage.

All of these seem "symbolic" but in actuality meant very real things...sadly not anymore.