Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Butch5]

Again God uses 2nd death to describe that eternal suffering. Likewise so do I. Your eternal life language is of your own doing trying to reason away what should have been clear to you. I don't know why you persist in annihilation as it's not found in the Bible. You have been shown that the burning sulfur causes torment on those souls so judged. You're the one who has not answered with scripture to shown annihilation.

You didn't answer the question. Where are the wicked promised eternal life? I know why. It's because the answer is nowhere. Nowhere in Scripture are the wicked promised eternal life. That begs the question, where do they get it if they do get it? Well, the answer is that they don't get it. One can't suffer eternal torment if one doesn't live for eternity. To prove your argument you must prove that the wicked get eternal life. If we can't prove that then we show that we misunderstand Scripture. That misunderstanding of Scripture is based on a mistranslation of the word aion. As I suggested, please try to make a case for eternal torment without using the word aion. That in itself should be a red flag. The idea that a doctrine is built on one word and the definition of that word is in question. Should signal the rational thinker to pause and ponder. However, as we see, the majority of Christians don't. Instead they continue on with the same erroneous arguments as if by repeating them enough they will somehow be true. Jesus and the apostles all spoke of the end of the aion. So, however a person wants to define the word it must end. If it doesn't then Jesus and the apostles were wrong. It seems to me that many want to hold contradictory positions, that being the Jesus and the apostles were correct and at the same time believing aion means eternal. The problem with that is that these two positions are mutually exclusive. The cannot both be correct. It requires that we choose one or the other. In holding these two opposing positions they are being irrational. Irrationality is not a valid position in an argument. It simp l y shows that one is wrong.

You said God uses the 2nd death to describe that eternal suffering. Can you read the mind of God? I think it's you that is using the 2nd death that way. It's necessary when one holds the Immortal Soul doctrine. The Immortal Soul doctrine holds that man is really a spirit and/or soul living in a temporary flesh body. This is Platonic Dualism, not Christianity. The Bible makes it clear that man is a flesh being. God told Adam that he was dust. He also said that His spirit would not always strive with man because man is flesh. Nowhere in Scripture is it taught that man is a spirit/soul that lives on after the body dies. That idea comes from Platonic Dualism and people twist Scripture to try to make it fit Platonic Dualism. It's been happening since the days of the apostles. The first ones were called Gnostics. However, the practice continues even to this day. No, the 2nd death means just what it says. It means to die twice. Once at thr end of out current life and for thr wicked again after the judgment.

You said I didn't show annihilation with Scripture. I gave three quick and popular passages off the top of my head. John wrote that God sent His Son so that those who believe would not perish. That's John 3:16. Arguably the most popular and most quoted passage in Scripture. He didn't say God sent His Son so that those who believe wouldn't suffer eternal torment. He said perish. Another very well known passage is from Paul. The wages of sin is death. He didn't say the wages of sin is eternal torment. Paul also told the Corinthians in chapter 15 if there is no resurrection then those Christians who had died had already perished. Then we have God's word from Ezekiel. The soul that sins shall die. Four passages that speak of the destiny of man and not one of them mentions Heaven or eternal torment. The only things mention are death or perishing and eternal life. In order to hold to the idea that the wicked are alive and suffer eternal torment requires that one disagree with both God and Paul. To hold that position on must hold that both God and Paul are wrong.

You see, these are the circumstances that cause the thinking person to stop and pause. No matter how anyone wants to explain it. They must hold that God and Paul are wrong. The two positions, that God and Paul are correct and that eternal torment is correct are mutually exclusive. They oppose one another and as such cannot both be true at the same time. One of them "MUST" be wrong.

 

[Corinth77777]

Now we have some who say 'I' am 'immortal' and go to heaven when I die, so nothing can wipe out 'my' existence, but they leave out what scripture says.

1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Only God has immortality right now, as these scripture makes that abundantly clear. The question is can humans achieve it, and if so, how?
Mark 10:17 - And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Luke 10:25 - And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 18:18 - And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Notice, the questions in the verses above talk about inheriting eternal life and that is a future tense event not a current one. They were asking what they had to do to inherit eternal life; which also says they didn't already have it. So, what did they, and we, have to do to inherit eternal life?

John 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 17:2 - As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
1 Timothy 6:19 - Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Again we find that eternal life is a future event but its conditional; you must believe in Him.

Titus 3:7 - That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Heirs receive an inheritance.
Hebrews 9:15 - And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
1 John 5:11 - And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

These verses clearly show that eternal life is not an automatic thing and we now the soul is not immortal and dies.
Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So when it comes to the end, the wicked including those who claim they follow Christ but only say with the lips but their hearts are far from Him. He knows and judges who are the sheep(saints) and goats(wicked) and confronts those who are not true.
Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 23:28
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Matthew 25:33
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And we see what happens to them...

Matthew 13:40-42
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

I was reading this to my spouse and there were so many of your thought He disagreed with.

Some passages were talking about punishment of their time on earth.

One minute you quoate a scripture about eternal..where He says He give it to them now. And the very next you say its in the future.

You use one man's question and assume it to all.

It was too much taken out of the context..

 

[Corinth77777]

You didn't answer the question. Where are the wicked promised eternal life? I know why. It's because the answer is nowhere. Nowhere in Scripture are the wicked promised eternal life. That begs the question, where do they get it if they do get it? Well, the answer is that they don't get it. One can't suffer eternal torment if one doesn't live for eternity. To prove your argument you must prove that the wicked get eternal life. If we can't prove that then we show that we misunderstand Scripture. That misunderstanding of Scripture is based on a mistranslation of the word aion. As I suggested, please try to make a case for eternal torment without using the word aion. That in itself should be a red flag. The idea that a doctrine is built on one word and the definition of that word is in question. Should signal the rational thinker to pause and ponder. However, as we see, the majority of Christians don't. Instead they continue on with the same erroneous arguments as if by repeating them enough they will somehow be true. Jesus and the apostles all spoke of the end of the aion. So, however a person wants to define the word it must end. If it doesn't then Jesus and the apostles were wrong. It seems to me that many want to hold contradictory positions, that being the Jesus and the apostles were correct and at the same time believing aion means eternal. The problem with that is that these two positions are mutually exclusive. The cannot both be correct. It requires that we choose one or the other. In holding these two opposing positions they are being irrational. Irrationality is not a valid position in an argument. It simp l y shows that one is wrong.

You said God uses the 2nd death to describe that eternal suffering. Can you read the mind of God? I think it's you that is using the 2nd death that way. It's necessary when one holds the Immortal Soul doctrine. The Immortal Soul doctrine holds that man is really a spirit and/or soul living in a temporary flesh body. This is Platonic Dualism, not Christianity. The Bible makes it clear that man is a flesh being. God told Adam that he was dust. He also said that His spirit would not always strive with man because man is flesh. Nowhere in Scripture is it taught that man is a spirit/soul that lives on after the body dies. That idea comes from Platonic Dualism and people twist Scripture to try to make it fit Platonic Dualism. It's been happening since the days of the apostles. The first ones were called Gnostics. However, the practice continues even to this day. No, the 2nd death means just what it says. It means to die twice. Once at thr end of out current life and for thr wicked again after the judgment.

You said I didn't show annihilation with Scripture. I gave three quick and popular passages off the top of my head. John wrote that God sent His Son so that those who believe would not perish. That's John 3:16. Arguably the most popular and most quoted passage in Scripture. He didn't say God sent His Son so that those who believe wouldn't suffer eternal torment. He said perish. Another very well known passage is from Paul. The wages of sin is death. He didn't say the wages of sin is eternal torment. Paul also told the Corinthians in chapter 15 if there is no resurrection then those Christians who had died had already perished. Then we have God's word from Ezekiel. The soul that sins shall die. Four passages that speak of the destiny of man and not one of them mentions Heaven or eternal torment. The only things mention are death or perishing and eternal life. In order to hold to the idea that the wicked are alive and suffer eternal torment requires that one disagree with both God and Paul. To hold that position on must hold that both God and Paul are wrong.

You see, these are the circumstances that cause the thinking person to stop and pause. No matter how anyone wants to explain it. They must hold that God and Paul are wrong. The two positions, that God and Paul are correct and that eternal torment is correct are mutually exclusive. They oppose one another and as such cannot both be true at the same time. One of them "MUST" be wrong.

So you dont believe we are body, soul, and Spirit?

 

[Butch5]

So you dont believe we are body, soul, and Spirit?

That's Platonic Dualism. Man is a soul that consists of the body and the breath of God.
Gen 2:7

 

[Corinth77777]

So the Argument is that people do not burn for ever and ever - always- without end?

I have a couple of questions> First noting as I noted before of an article That I could not find where this man claimed that the lake of fire was God's people.

But b4 I make my statement . Lets me bring up some thoughts.

1. Do not fear the one that can destroy the body, but the one that can destroy the body, soul snd Spirit in Ghenna.<---- I think this is a scripture somewhere but don't quote it.

2. I like the comment Willard made when He said something like- Heaven could be like hell for someone that did not like to stay close to Jesus as they could have in the world.

With those thoughts in mind - and if I remember correctly from a studying I was doing on eternal life vs. Life eternal a long long time ago,

One of those meant the quality of life zoe aiones- something like that-

Thinking aloud--> I give them eternal life,
Maybe knowledge of Him, Jesus Christ and God.

Eterlife is in the son-

So my thought is the life in you is eternal , and you with it= eternal life "zoe" for you

Now what would it look like for the members of Christ in one body....where Christ is the head- for those who chose not God if they were thrown in the midst?

If there are things that if we do them today burn coals over the head of folk. Then? Could not the quality of life of the body of Christ burn for those baptised/ thrown in the midst of them? Them meaning the body, members of Christ?

What is thrown in the lake of anyway?
So this was just a thought don't hurt me
A thought that may just incorporate another way of thinking about eternal from being in what is eternal, the quality of life itself.

But I have no backing on the Lake of fire..never could find the article...

What I do believe is a man has a body, soul, and Spirit. " fear the one that can destroy the body, soul, and spirit"

And what I do believe is the things that are unseen are eternal- as it is written

Seeing then that that the soul and spirit of a person are eternal, the question then would be how are they destroyed, or punished and to what outcome?

 

[Butch5]

What I do believe is a man has a body, soul, and Spirit. " fear the one that can destroy the body, soul, and spirit"

And what I do believe is the things that are unseen are eternal- as it is written

Seeing then that that the soul and spirit of a person are eternal, the question then would be how are they destroyed, or punished and to what outcome?

The spirit is the breath of God. The soul is the life. Men die so the soul isn't eternal.

How do the wicked get eternal life? If man is a soul that is eternal why did God promise eternal life to those who believe? Didn't they already have eternal life?

 

[Corinth77777]

That's Platonic Dualism. Man is a soul that consists of the body and the breath of God.
Gen 2:7

How do you answer to:


I Thessalonians 5:23: "May your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus"

 

[Corinth77777]

We are made in the image of God. That is how we are able to relate to God. As scripture says the things unseen are eternal. The spirit, Soul and will...are eternal

Are they not?

It would be no need of a second death if all was physical.....because they could remain dead.

​

 

[Butch5]

How do you answer to:


I Thessalonians 5:23: "May your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus"

Notice the word "your" it denote possession. What possesses that body, soul, and spirit?

Notice Paul didn't "you" body, soul, and spirit. If he ha said, you, then he would be denoting that man is a body, soul, and spirit. Instead he said, your denoting the possession of a body, soul, and spirit. Again, Gen 2:7. The man became a living soul. The breath of God infused the man and the man tranformed into a living soul.

 

[Corinth77777]

The spirit is the breath of God. The soul is the life. Men die so the soul isn't eternal.

How do the wicked get eternal life? If man is a soul that is eternal why did God promise eternal life to those who believe? Didn't they already have eternal life?

I'm Not sure what you mean.

But what I do know is eternal life can be referring to the quality of life.

 

[Butch5]

We are made in the image of God. That is how we are able to relate to God. As scripture says the things unseen are eternal. The spirit, Soul and will...are eternal

Are they not?

It would be no need of a second death if all was physical.....because they could remain dead.

​

The Bible doesn't explain what being made in the image of God means.

There will be a resurrect of all of the dead. The wicked will be judged and they will die a second time, thus the second death.

 

[Butch5]

I'm Not sure what you mean.

But what I do know is eternal life can be referring to the quality of life.

You and your. You means the person. Your means possession. If I say your truck no one is going thinknyou are a truck. They are going think you have a truck.

The word eternal is related to time, not quality

 

[Corinth77777]

Notice the word "your" it denote possession. What possesses that body, soul, and spirit?

Notice Paul didn't "you" body, soul, and spirit. If he ha said, you, then he would be denoting that man is a body, soul, and spirit. Instead he said, your denoting the possession of a body, soul, and spirit. Again, Gen 2:7. The man became a living soul. The breath of God infused the man and the man tranformed into a living soul.

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Corinth77777]

Sounds like you are saying if one kills the body they also kill the soul and Spirit.. but I dont see that here.

Matthew
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We know there are opposite. Physical and Spiritual

If by the Spirit one puts away the deeds of the flesh they shall live....Here we are talking about quality of life.

 

[Butch5]

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

That speaks of the Resurrection. Everyone will be resurrected. So, when man kills it's only temporary. Notice the switch from kill to destroy. That's because God holds every life in His hand. No life ends unless God allows it to end. When God destroys a soul it is no more.

 

[Corinth77777]

That speaks of the Resurrection. Everyone will be resurrected. So, when man kills it's only temporary. Notice the switch from kill to destroy. That's because God holds every life in His hand. No life ends unless God allows it to end. When God destroys a soul it is no momore.

What does the Bible say about the human soul or spirit?

Miguel Aguilar Jr.'s answer: I can not give you a simple answer but I can give a long explanation if you care to read it. The Difference between Soul and Spirit. They are not the same. Before I get into that, let me give you some definitions for both words, in the Hebrew and the Greek. Hebrew ...

www.quora.com

 

[Butch5]

What does the Bible say about the human soul or spirit?

Miguel Aguilar Jr.'s answer: I can not give you a simple answer but I can give a long explanation if you care to read it. The Difference between Soul and Spirit. They are not the same. Before I get into that, let me give you some definitions for both words, in the Hebrew and the Greek. Hebrew ...

www.quora.com

What's the point of the article? I already explained it

 

[Corinth77777]

What's the point of the article? I already explained it

I think what I got from Him is we are unceasing spiritual beings because we have a Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

I think what I got from Him is we are unceasing spiritual beings because we have a Spirit.

Have a spirit, not are a spirit.

 

[Randy]

You didn't answer the question. Where are the wicked promised eternal life? I know why. It's because the answer is nowhere. Nowhere in Scripture are the wicked promised eternal life. That begs the question, where do they get it if they do get it? Well, the answer is that they don't get it. One can't suffer eternal torment if one doesn't live for eternity. To prove your argument you must prove that the wicked get eternal life. If we can't prove that then we show that we misunderstand Scripture. That misunderstanding of Scripture is based on a mistranslation of the word aion. As I suggested, please try to make a case for eternal torment without using the word aion. That in itself should be a red flag. The idea that a doctrine is built on one word and the definition of that word is in question. Should signal the rational thinker to pause and ponder. However, as we see, the majority of Christians don't. Instead they continue on with the same erroneous arguments as if by repeating them enough they will somehow be true. Jesus and the apostles all spoke of the end of the aion. So, however a person wants to define the word it must end. If it doesn't then Jesus and the apostles were wrong. It seems to me that many want to hold contradictory positions, that being the Jesus and the apostles were correct and at the same time believing aion means eternal. The problem with that is that these two positions are mutually exclusive. The cannot both be correct. It requires that we choose one or the other. In holding these two opposing positions they are being irrational. Irrationality is not a valid position in an argument. It simp l y shows that one is wrong.

You said God uses the 2nd death to describe that eternal suffering. Can you read the mind of God? I think it's you that is using the 2nd death that way. It's necessary when one holds the Immortal Soul doctrine. The Immortal Soul doctrine holds that man is really a spirit and/or soul living in a temporary flesh body. This is Platonic Dualism, not Christianity. The Bible makes it clear that man is a flesh being. God told Adam that he was dust. He also said that His spirit would not always strive with man because man is flesh. Nowhere in Scripture is it taught that man is a spirit/soul that lives on after the body dies. That idea comes from Platonic Dualism and people twist Scripture to try to make it fit Platonic Dualism. It's been happening since the days of the apostles. The first ones were called Gnostics. However, the practice continues even to this day. No, the 2nd death means just what it says. It means to die twice. Once at thr end of out current life and for thr wicked again after the judgment.

You said I didn't show annihilation with Scripture. I gave three quick and popular passages off the top of my head. John wrote that God sent His Son so that those who believe would not perish. That's John 3:16. Arguably the most popular and most quoted passage in Scripture. He didn't say God sent His Son so that those who believe wouldn't suffer eternal torment. He said perish. Another very well known passage is from Paul. The wages of sin is death. He didn't say the wages of sin is eternal torment. Paul also told the Corinthians in chapter 15 if there is no resurrection then those Christians who had died had already perished. Then we have God's word from Ezekiel. The soul that sins shall die. Four passages that speak of the destiny of man and not one of them mentions Heaven or eternal torment. The only things mention are death or perishing and eternal life. In order to hold to the idea that the wicked are alive and suffer eternal torment requires that one disagree with both God and Paul. To hold that position on must hold that both God and Paul are wrong.

You see, these are the circumstances that cause the thinking person to stop and pause. No matter how anyone wants to explain it. They must hold that God and Paul are wrong. The two positions, that God and Paul are correct and that eternal torment is correct are mutually exclusive. They oppose one another and as such cannot both be true at the same time. One of them "MUST" be wrong.

Your question was answered. 3rd time- God promises the wicked the 2nd death. He does not state life in that soul suffering state in the lake of fire. YOU are using the term eternal life to reason annihilation even though the burning causes torment with no rest night and day to such souls as stated in scripture. Their worm does not die nor is their fire quenched. Annihilation is NOT found in scripture otherwise I would agree with you. Neither Paul nor God are wrong you are the one who is mistaken. The 2nd death is testified and stated in Revelation. Why are you looking elsewhere?