Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Butch5]

What is the assumption? How am I using the word to define the word? You do know that context determines meaning, yes?

Sure. Here's what you said.

FREE: Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
...
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

It stands to reason from verse 46, that if the punishment of the wicked is temporary, then so is life for the righteous. The context is speaking of final things, an indefinite period of time. That is, unlike Matt 13:49, there is nothing that happens afterwards; it just is.

You said that it stands to reason that if the punishment is temporary, then so is the life for the righteous. It's circular because you've assumed that regarding the life aionios means eternal. You then used that to try to prove that the punishment is eternal. So, you've assume the meaning of aion regarding life to define the meaning of aion regarding the punishment. That's a circular argument.

And, can you please actually address the points I gave.

As I said, the argument is circular. Why spend time breaking down the points when the argument is invalid?

Again, what is the assumption? Location? No, you have completely misunderstood the verse.

Rev 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. (ESV)

It is simply a “a call for the endurance of the saints,” as opposed to those who received the mark of the beast. It’s a repeat of Rev 13:10:

Rev 13:10 If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints. (ESV)

Besides, even if it did mean location, which it doesn’t, then you have to explain what is being said and how location is relevant.

It's a call for endurance, yes. Where? Why do they have to endure? What do they have to endure?

If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with hfire and hbrimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 14:9–12.

It's a call to endure through this time of trial. It's a call for the elect to resist taking the mark of the Beast. Do you believe that the unbelievers will be taking the mark of the Beast as they're burning in eternal torment? These people being spoken of are alive.

Remember what Jesus said of the Tribulation?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, hsuch as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 24:15–22.

Jesus said this is a time that is worse than has ever been. It's so bad that if God had not shortened the time, even the elect would have been lost. That clearly shows us that the elect, or the saints will be there. And that's what we see in Rev 14. It's a call for the saints to stand firm and resist taking the mark of the Beast.

 

[Butch5]

You’re not understanding my point. You’re not taking everything I am stating within the context that I gave, namely, that context determines meaning. In the process, you ignored that I stated: “The repetition, particularly of aion, is used for emphasis and strongly suggests eternality.”

"strongly suggests" is an opinion. It doesn't strongly suggest it to me. It may strongly suggest eternality if one comes to the text with that idea.

The phrase is literally eis tous aionas ton aionon, and literally translates as “to the ages of the ages.” But, that is a reference for eterntiy, as many of the passages I gave show. That is the point. It can’t mean anything else

It can mean something else. All of these passages in Revelation that speak of the ages of ages can mean a finite period of time. And, Scripture shows us that they do refer to a finite period of time. The prophet Jeremiah tells us that the Lake of Fire will be restored in the New Jerusalem and it will not be destroyed again after that.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That the city shall be built to the LORD
From the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it
Upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes,
And all the fields unto the brook of Kidron,
Unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east,
Shall be holy unto the LORD;
It shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Je 31:38–40.

This includes Gehenna which is where Jesus said the wicked would be destroyed. Gehenna, aka Lake of Fire, is "the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes." If Gehenna is going to be restored in the restoration of all things and made holy to the Lord, it's obvious that it's not going to be burning for eternity.

Then your argument is with John’s inspired writing.

It's not. It's with the translation of aion. As I've shown it doesn't mean eternal.

Which means eternal. There is literally nothing else it can mean.

Yes, it can. As I've shown above.

It would depend on what you meant by “He’s going to be around.” Of you are referring to his existence, then yes, it would refer to eternity.

But that's different. I didn't ask if it referred to eternity. I asked does it mean eternity. Sure, ages of ages could be used to refer to eternity. But that's not the issue. The question is, does it "mean" eternity? In my example God is eternal. So, if I say, "God is eternal so He's going to be around for "a while." Does "a while" now mean eternity? Does the definition of "a while" change to mean eternity? It's doesn't. The definition of "a while" a short period of time, does not suddenly mean eternity because I used it of God. The definition doesn't change. "A while" still means a short period of time. Someone reading that statement and knowing the definition didn't change would understand that I'm using the term figuratively

We’re not dealing with a single use of aion, but a phrase where it is repeated. By simply repeating that the translation should be “ages of ages,” you’re actually not explaining what the text means. It has to be referring to something. What does “ages of ages” mean, if not eternity?

Undefined time periods. An age is a undefined period of time. The length of the age is determined by the context. If we're talking about life, your age and my age are probably different. The Ice age, the Bronze age, and the iron age are all different lengths of time. The Bible uses the word age or aion for both long and short periods of time. Sometimes it refers to a persons lifetime. Surely that's not eternal. Ages of ages is usually a way to designate a long period of time. It would depend on how long the ages are.

God has broken His plan into ages. We're currently in the Church age and we know it will end. Jesus said it will end. But, suppose God decided to create an age that would not end. That would be an eternal age. It would be eternal because it wouldn't end, not because it's called an age, or an aion. The definition of age or aion wouldn't change. They would still mean an undefined period of time. It's just that God determined that that one particular age wouldn't end. Because, if God creates an age or aion that doesn't end it is eternal. However, if we then read that one particular age back into the definition of the words age or aion, we create problems and contradictions everywhere that an age or aion isn't eternal.

That's what's been done. People believe God is eternal and so when they see ages of ages they say, "it must mean eternal." But that's not exegesis, it's eisegesis. They're reading that into the text.

 

[Corinth77777]

"strongly suggests" is an opinion. It doesn't strongly suggest it to me. It may strongly suggest eternality if one comes to the text with that idea.

It can mean something else. All of these passages in Revelation that speak of the ages of ages can mean a finite period of time. And, Scripture shows us that they do refer to a finite period of time. The prophet Jeremiah tells us that the Lake of Fire will be restored in the New Jerusalem and it will not be destroyed again after that.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That the city shall be built to the LORD
From the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it
Upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes,
And all the fields unto the brook of Kidron,
Unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east,
Shall be holy unto the LORD;
It shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Je 31:38–40.

This includes Gehenna which is where Jesus said the wicked would be destroyed. Gehenna, aka Lake of Fire, is "the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes." If Gehenna is going to be restored in the restoration of all things and made holy to the Lord, it's obvious that it's not going to be burning for eternity.




It's not. It's with the translation of aion. As I've shown it doesn't mean eternal.

Yes, it can. As I've shown above.

But that's different. I didn't ask if it referred to eternity. I asked does it mean eternity. Sure, ages of ages could be used to refer to eternity. But that's not the issue. The question is, does it "mean" eternity? In my example God is eternal. So, if I say, "God is eternal so He's going to be around for "a while." Does "a while" now mean eternity? Does the definition of "a while" change to mean eternity? It's doesn't. The definition of "a while" a short period of time, does not suddenly mean eternity because I used it of God. The definition doesn't change. "A while" still means a short period of time. Someone reading that statement and knowing the definition didn't change would understand that I'm using the term figuratively


Undefined time periods. An age is a undefined period of time. The length of the age is determined by the context. If we're talking about life, your age and my age are probably different. The Ice age, the Bronze age, and the iron age are all different lengths of time. The Bible uses the word age or aion for both long and short periods of time. Sometimes it refers to a persons lifetime. Surely that's not eternal. Ages of ages is usually a way to designate a long period of time. It would depend on how long the ages are.

God has broken His plan into ages. We're currently in the Church age and we know it will end. Jesus said it will end. But, suppose God decided to create an age that would not end. That would be an eternal age. It would be eternal because it wouldn't end, not because it's called an age, or an aion. The definition of age or aion wouldn't change. They would still mean an undefined period of time. It's just that God determined that that one particular age wouldn't end. Because, if God creates an age or aion that doesn't end it is eternal. However, if we then read that one particular age back into the definition of the words age or aion, we create problems and contradictions everywhere that an age or aion isn't eternal.

That's what's been done. People believe God is eternal and so when they see ages of ages they say, "it must mean eternal." But that's not exegesis, it's eisegesis. They're reading that into the text.

Years ago I read an article - that the lake of fire was God's people by a man who said He figured it out because He grew up reading the old testament.

Willard had even said something like - heaven could be like Hell for someone who didn't want to stay close to God now in this life we are now living.

He makes His ministers flames of fire
I remember a scripture something like that.

 

[Randy]

The passage speaks only of three individuals. It doesn't speak of mankind. Ages of ages can be a finite time period. Actually we know it has to be because Jeremiah tells us that the Lake of Fire will one day be restored and made Holy to the Lord. If it's restored and made Holy then it can't burn for eternity.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That the city shall be built to the Lord From the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it Upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes And all the fields unto the brook of Kidron,
Unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, Shall be holy unto the Lord;
It shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:38-40 KJV)

Also, the book of Revelation is a book of symbolism. So, it wouldn't be surprising to see figurative language here. Much of the book is figurative language. Surely we don't think that when Jesus was on earth he looked like a slain lamb and had seven eyes. Yet, that is how the book of Revelation portrays Him. It portrays death and the grave as living beings riding a horse. Surely no one thinks death or the grave are alive and ride horses. The book is full of symbolism. That's one reason why I find it rather odd that people use this book to argue that aion means eternal.

In this passage it says Babylon will be found no more.

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying,
Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. (Rev 18:21 KJV)

Yet, a chapter later we find the smoke rising.

For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. (Rev 19:2-3 KJV)

If aion means forever, how can Babylon be found no more? If the smoke rises fro eternity then it could easily be found. Just look for the smoke. However, if aion means an age then there is a time when the smoke stops rising and Babylon could be found no more. If we translate aion as an age both passages can be reconciled. If we translate it as forever, the two passages contradict one another. This shows us that forever is an incorrect definition.

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Tormented is not executed. And it is individuals that meet the criteria as spoken by God. No rest is not annihilation its ongoing torment.

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

[Butch5]

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Tormented is not executed. And it is individuals that meet the criteria as spoken by God. No rest is not annihilation its ongoing torment.

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

These people are alive. I'm not sure how that proves eternal torment.

Let me ask a question. This is for everyone. What is, the smoke of their torment? Smoke comes from fire, right? For there to be smoke something has to be burning, right? Obviously it's not torment, because torment is a abstract noun. It's not a physical thing. It can't burn. So, what is burning?

 

[Butch5]

Years ago I read an article - that the lake of fire was God's people by a man who said He figured it out because He grew up reading the old testament.

Willard had even said something like - heaven could be like Hell for someone who didn't want to stay close to God now in this life we are now living.

He makes His ministers flames of fire
I remember a scripture something like that.

That's an allegorical use. Gehenna is a real place. I don't think the Lake of Fire is just an allegory.

 

[Corinth77777]

That's an allegorical use. Gehenna is a real place. I don't think the Lake of Fire is just an allegory.

I never said it wasn't a real place- But in one man's thoughts that it would be possible that the lake were the people of God. Being in the midst of people is a place. I believe it's possible, as someone mentioned, it does have to do with the conscience and probably more.

 

[Butch5]

I never said it wasn't a real place- But in one man's thoughts that it would be possible that the lake were the people of God. Being in the midst of people is a place. I believe it's possible, as someone mentioned, it does have to do with the conscience and probably more.

But the people aren't a place. There is actually a location called Gehenna. Jesus referenced it. Why would we expect it to be something other than what He referenced?

 

[Corinth77777]

These people are alive. I'm not sure how that proves eternal torment.

Let me ask a question. This is for everyone. What is, the smoke of their torment? Smoke comes from fire, right? For there to be smoke something has to be burning, right? Obviously it's not torment, because torment is a abstract noun. It's not a physical thing. It can't burn. So, what is burning?

One thing that came to mind is that things that are seen are temprary. One cannot see the huffing and puffung of a person's inner being, Rather that be the soul and Spirit.

 

[Corinth77777]

But the people aren't a place. There is actually a location called Gehenna. Jesus referenced it. Why would we expect it to be something other than what He referenced?

Are you placed in the body of Christ? Is his body not a place? Are you telling me that where you are surrounded by is not a place?..

 

[Corinth77777]

But the people aren't a place. There is actually a location called Gehenna. Jesus referenced it. Why would we expect it to be something other than what He referenced?

What is the reference?

 

[Free]

Sure. Here's what you said.

FREE: Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
...
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

It stands to reason from verse 46, that if the punishment of the wicked is temporary, then so is life for the righteous. The context is speaking of final things, an indefinite period of time. That is, unlike Matt 13:49, there is nothing that happens afterwards; it just is.

You said that it stands to reason that if the punishment is temporary, then so is the life for the righteous. It's circular because you've assumed that regarding the life aionios means eternal. You then used that to try to prove that the punishment is eternal. So, you've assume the meaning of aion regarding life to define the meaning of aion regarding the punishment. That's a circular argument.

No, there is nothing circular and I didn't assume that aionion means "eternal." My argument clearly is that, given the word is used twice in the same context, same sentence even, that they must have the same meaning. I stated that "if the punishment of the wicked is temporary, then so is life for the righteous;" which you even quoted.

So, either the punishment is temporary and so is life, or both are eternal. That is the argument, based on context. There is nothing circular.

As I said, the argument is circular. Why spend time breaking down the points when the argument is invalid?

Your opinion is that the argument is circular, but it isn't. So, please address the points I gave.

It's a call for endurance, yes. Where? Why do they have to endure? What do they have to endure?

If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with hfire and hbrimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 14:9–12.

It's a call to endure through this time of trial. It's a call for the elect to resist taking the mark of the Beast. Do you believe that the unbelievers will be taking the mark of the Beast as they're burning in eternal torment? These people being spoken of are alive.

Remember what Jesus said of the Tribulation?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, hsuch as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 24:15–22.

Jesus said this is a time that is worse than has ever been. It's so bad that if God had not shortened the time, even the elect would have been lost. That clearly shows us that the elect, or the saints will be there. And that's what we see in Rev 14. It's a call for the saints to stand firm and resist taking the mark of the Beast.

This is circular. You're assuming that "here" is a reference to location and then using that to conclude that it is referring to location. You haven't really explained anything here.

 

[Butch5]

No, there is nothing circular and I didn't assume that aionion means "eternal." My argument clearly is that, given the word is used twice in the same context, same sentence even, that they must have the same meaning. I stated that "if the punishment of the wicked is temporary, then so is life for the righteous;" which you even quoted.

So, either the punishment is temporary and so is life, or both are eternal. That is the argument, based on context. There is nothing circular.

It's absolutely circular. The life and the punishment are aionios. They're both age enduring. If the age ends then so does the punishment and so does the life. If the age does not end then neither does the punishment or the life. But, in this argument you're assuming, without proving, that the life is eternal and as such concluding that the punishment is eternal. That's circular.

Your opinion is that the argument is circular, but it isn't. So, please address the points I gave.


This is circular. You're assuming that "here" is a reference to location and then using that to conclude that it is referring to location. You haven't really explained anything hehere.

The definition of the word is, at that location.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Agreed. However, eternity or forever, doesn't end. Thus there can't be an end of the eternity and an eternity to come.

An "age" can end, and afterwards, another age can begin.
"Everlasting" can have a start date, if spoken of as a future event.
Like..."The regenerated will have everlasting life."

 

[Butch5]

An "age" can end, and afterwards, another age can begin.
"Everlasting" can have a start date, if spoken of as a future event.
Like..."The regenerated will have everlasting life."

Agreed. But, everlasting can't end.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Agreed. But, everlasting can't end.

I agree.
But it can have a start to its everlastingness.

 

[Free]

"strongly suggests" is an opinion. It doesn't strongly suggest it to me. It may strongly suggest eternality if one comes to the text with that idea.

Do you understand the use of repetition in the Bible, that it is used for emphasis? "To the ages of the ages" is like saying "through all indefinite periods of time" or "unending ages." Given the contexts, which I provided, it does strongly suggest eternity, "forever and ever."

It can mean something else. All of these passages in Revelation that speak of the ages of ages can mean a finite period of time. And, Scripture shows us that they do refer to a finite period of time. The prophet Jeremiah tells us that the Lake of Fire will be restored in the New Jerusalem and it will not be destroyed again after that.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That the city shall be built to the LORD
From the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it
Upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes,
And all the fields unto the brook of Kidron,
Unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east,
Shall be holy unto the LORD;
It shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Je 31:38–40.

This includes Gehenna which is where Jesus said the wicked would be destroyed. Gehenna, aka Lake of Fire, is "the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes." If Gehenna is going to be restored in the restoration of all things and made holy to the Lord, it's obvious that it's not going to be burning for eternity.

You do know what a metaphor is, correct? Gehenna is a metaphor for the lake of fire, not necessarily (and not likely) the actual lake of fire.

It's not. It's with the translation of aion. As I've shown it doesn't mean eternal.

Context, context, context. Your argument is with John's inspired writing.

Yes, it can. As I've shown above.

Where?

But that's different. I didn't ask if it referred to eternity. I asked does it mean eternity. Sure, ages of ages could be used to refer to eternity. But that's not the issue. The question is, does it "mean" eternity? In my example God is eternal. So, if I say, "God is eternal so He's going to be around for "a while." Does "a while" now mean eternity? Does the definition of "a while" change to mean eternity? It's doesn't. The definition of "a while" a short period of time, does not suddenly mean eternity because I used it of God. The definition doesn't change. "A while" still means a short period of time. Someone reading that statement and knowing the definition didn't change would understand that I'm using the term figuratively

You really don't seem to understand context and how that determines the meaning of a word used in that specific context. I am not arguing that if a word is used to refer to eternity that therefore the meaning of the word has changed. In context, if you say "God is eternal so He's going to be around for "a while," then, yes, "a while" means "eternity." It is specific to the context in which you used it.


Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)

What does aionios mean here? Does it refer to eternal life?

Undefined time periods. An age is a undefined period of time. The length of the age is determined by the context.

That is what I have said. And eternity is the largest undefined period of time there is.

If we're talking about life, your age and my age are probably different. The Ice age, the Bronze age, and the iron age are all different lengths of time. The Bible uses the word age or aion for both long and short periods of time. Sometimes it refers to a persons lifetime. Surely that's not eternal. Ages of ages is usually a way to designate a long period of time. It would depend on how long the ages are.

God has broken His plan into ages. We're currently in the Church age and we know it will end. Jesus said it will end. But, suppose God decided to create an age that would not end. That would be an eternal age. It would be eternal because it wouldn't end, not because it's called an age, or an aion. The definition of age or aion wouldn't change. They would still mean an undefined period of time. It's just that God determined that that one particular age wouldn't end. Because, if God creates an age or aion that doesn't end it is eternal. However, if we then read that one particular age back into the definition of the words age or aion, we create problems and contradictions everywhere that an age or aion isn't eternal.

That's what's been done. People believe God is eternal and so when they see ages of ages they say, "it must mean eternal." But that's not exegesis, it's eisegesis. They're reading that into the text.

No, it's taking context into account. You want to have it both ways. On the one hand you say "The length of the age is determined by the context," but on the other, you argue against the context when "to the ages of the ages" is used of God, that it cannot mean "eternal." Which is it?

 

[Free]

It's absolutely circular. The life and the punishment are aionios. They're both age enduring. If the age ends then so does the punishment and so does the life. If the age does not end then neither does the punishment or the life. But, in this argument you're assuming, without proving, that the life is eternal and as such concluding that the punishment is eternal. That's circular.

No, I made the argument that you just made. However, since the idea that God is eternal and that those who put their faith in Jesus will have eternal life are two of the most basic teachings of the Bible, let's look at them.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (ESV)

Is Jesus teaching that those who believe in him will never die? If so, would you say that is the equivalent of saying they have eternal life?


Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
Rom 6:9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. (ESV)

1Co 9:25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. (ESV)

1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” (ESV)

2Ti 1:10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, (ESV)

Do you think Paul is teaching that believers will live forever? If not, why not?


Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
...
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. (ESV)

Do you think that Paul is teaching that God is eternal? If not, why not?


1Ti 1:17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (ESV)

Do you think that "forever and ever" here means "eternal"? If not, why not?

The definition of the word is, at that location.

No.

 

[Butch5]

I agree.
But it can have a start to its everlastingness.

Agreed

 

[Butch5]

No, I made the argument that you just made. However, since the idea that God is eternal and that those who put their faith in Jesus will have eternal life are two of the most basic teachings of the Bible, let's look at them.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (ESV)

Is Jesus teaching that those who believe in him will never die? If so, would you say that is the equivalent of saying they have eternal life?

Yes, that is eternal life. However, it doesn't speak of aionios. What's to say that that eternal life doesn't span many aions? If it spans more than one then aion can't mean eternal

Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
Rom 6:9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. (ESV)

1Co 9:25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. (ESV)

1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” (ESV)

2Ti 1:10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, (ESV)

Do you think Paul is teaching that believers will live forever? If not, why not?

Again, that is eternal life. But, again, it says nothing of aion. Don't you find it odd that the passages that are clearly speak of eternal life don't use the word aion? Do you think maybe Jesus and Paul knew that aion didn't mean eternal?

Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
...
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. (ESV)

Do you think that Paul is teaching that God is eternal? If not, why not?


1Ti 1:17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (ESV)

Do you think that "forever and ever" here means "eternal"? If not, why not?

Proving God is eternal doesn't prove that aion means eternal.

No.

Yeah