Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Butch5]

Do you understand the use of repetition in the Bible, that it is used for emphasis? "To the ages of the ages" is like saying "through all indefinite periods of time" or "unending ages." Given the contexts, which I provided, it does strongly suggest eternity, "forever and ever."

Again, "does strongly suggest" is an opinion.

You do know what a metaphor is, correct? Gehenna is a metaphor for the lake of fire, not necessarily (and not likely) the actual lake of fire.

Really? How is there a metaphor for something before that something exists? How is Jesus using Gehnna as a metaphor for the Lake of Fire that didn't exist? O one knew anything about a Lake of Fire until Johm wrote Revelation some 60 years after Jesus. No, the thing come first the metaphor comes afterward. The Lake of Fire is a metaphor for Gehenna.

Context, context, context. Your argument is with John's inspired writing.

No, it's not. It shows that Christ doesn't reign forever which shows that the translation of John's words is incorrect

Where?


You really don't seem to understand context and how that determines the meaning of a word used in that specific context. I am not arguing that if a word is used to refer to eternity that therefore the meaning of the word has changed. In context, if you say "God is eternal so He's going to be around for "a while," then, yes, "a while" means "eternity." It is specific to the context in which you used it.

You just contradicted yourself. You said, "I am not arguing that if a word is used to refer to eternity that therefore the meaning of the word has changed." And then you said that "a while" means eternity. That's a change of definition.

The word doesn't change meaning. "A while is a short period of time. If I say, "God is eternal, He's going to be around for a while," "a while" still means a short period of time. The fact that I contrasted "a while" with "eternal" shows I'm using it figuratively.

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)

What does aionios mean here? Does it refer to eternal life?

No. It means age enduring life.

That is what I have said. And eternity is the largest undefined period of time there is.

Eternity is an undefined period of time. So is your lifetime, my lifetime, the ice, the broze age, etc. Are we now going to say that all of these are eternal? They are all undefined of periods of time. They "ARE" all ages. But they are "NOT" all eternal. See, once again, age fits where eternal doesn't.

No, it's taking context into account. You want to have it both ways. On the one hand you say "The length of the age is determined by the context," but on the other, you argue against the context when "to the ages of the ages" is used of God, that it cannot mean "eternal." Which is it?

I never argued against context. I simply said that just because it's used of God doesn't mean aion means eternal. Is God age enduring? Yes! Then aion fits.

You may want to study the Hebrew word "olam" this is the concept that aion is trying to portray. The Hebrew word olam was translated with aion in the Greek Old Testament. The ancient Hebrews didn't have a word that meant eternal. To convey that concept they used phrases such as, without end. They didn't have a single word to convey that concept. That tells us that olam didn't mean eternal. If olam didn't mean eternal, then the translation from olam to aion didn't mean eternal.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Is that correct?

No it's not. Without measure, the end can't be determined. You keep saying there's an "end", then enlighten me, how long is this "aion" and when is this "end". Rev. 22:5 explicitly states forever and ever - with no end. Jesus is never wrong, you are. You're leaving the possibility that the Scripture contradicts itself.

I'm not sure how this helps you. It speaks of the city of Jerusalem. That doesn't mean the sun and moon won't affect the rest of the world.

New Jerusalem IS the new heaven and the new earth, not just one city any more.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

When Christ returns He comes in the air. Then His followers are caught up into the air to meet Him and accompany Him back to the earth.

That's not the common narrative about rapture from the pulpit. Most dispensationalists believe this "rapture" will transport them to heaven, then instead of Christ, the Antichrist rises and then goes the seven years of tribulation.

 

[LeviR]

Sure! The word rapture comes from Latin. However, the idea in the Bible comes from the Greek word Parousia. Paul is referring to a practice of the Romans. When a magistrate had a big victory, upon his return the people of the city would come out to meet him and accompany him the rest of the way. It was a time of great celebration. This is what we see in Scripture. When Christ returns He comes in the air. Then His followers are caught up into the air to meet Him and accompany Him back to the earth.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of athe earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 24:29–31.

The Latin based rapture is just a small part of the Parousia. It's the part mentioned above when the angels gather the elect from the four winds.

We don't need to know by what measure. The question is, does it end, period. How it ends, why it ends, or where it ends, is irrelevant. The question is, does it end? It seems to me that you're leaving open the possibility that Jesus is wrong. Is that correct?

I'm not sure how this helps you. It speaks of the city of Jerusalem. That doesn't mean the sun and moon won't affect the rest of the world.

The gathering of the elect from the four winds is not the rapture. The rapture would have occurred earlier.

 

[Butch5]

The gathering of the elect from the four winds is not the rapture. The rapture would have occurred earlier.

Read the passage

 

[Randy]

These people are alive. I'm not sure how that proves eternal torment.

Let me ask a question. This is for everyone. What is, the smoke of their torment? Smoke comes from fire, right? For there to be smoke something has to be burning, right? Obviously it's not torment, because torment is a abstract noun. It's not a physical thing. It can't burn. So, what is burning?

How can someone who is executed be tormented with no rest day or night?

 

[Butch5]

How can someone who is executed be tormented with no rest day or night?

They can't be.

 

[Randy]

They can't be.

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

 

[LeviR]

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

All those who worship the beast(the Assyrian) will suffer a death in the lake of fire until they all be consumed. The smoke of their suffering will rise forever…..the length of time from start to finish.
Forever is indicative of the beginning to the end of something.
Christ’s reign is to be 1000 years….which is said to be forever.
Worms do not have eternal life. They live as long as they have something to feed on.

 

[Butch5]

All those who worship the beast(the Assyrian) will suffer a death in the lake of fire until they all be consumed. The smoke of their suffering will rise forever…..the length of time from start to finish.
Forever is indicative of the beginning to the end of something.
Christ’s reign is to be 1000 years….which is said to be forever.
Worms do not have eternal life. They live as long as they have something to feed on.

Yeah, it's figurative language, but for some reason people don't get that.

 

[Butch5]

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

I'm not sure it is that you're trying to get at.

 

[Randy]

All those who worship the beast(the Assyrian) will suffer a death in the lake of fire until they all be consumed. The smoke of their suffering will rise forever…..the length of time from start to finish.
Forever is indicative of the beginning to the end of something.
Christ’s reign is to be 1000 years….which is said to be forever.
Worms do not have eternal life. They live as long as they have something to feed on.

It should be clear to all that burning sulfur causes suffering to spirit/souls not annihilation.
The 2nd death is the lake of burning sulfur. The ratio of those who will be consigned to their fate as by the choices they made while in the life of the body is greater then those that receive Christ and live by as one believing in Him. Those in the lake of burning sulfur perish as they never rise again. They are in a destroyed state of existence tied to eternal suffering. God has no change of mind in that matter.

It's the throne of God and of the Lamb Forever as I read. That is sovereign authority.

 

[LeviR]

It should be clear to all that burning sulfur causes suffering to spirit/souls not annihilation.
The 2nd death is the lake of burning sulfur. The ratio of those who will be consigned to their fate as by the choices they made while in the life of the body is greater then those that receive Christ and live by as one believing in Him. Those in the lake of burning sulfur perish as they never rise again. They are in a destroyed state of existence tied to eternal suffering. God has no change of mind in that matter.

It's the throne of God and of the Lamb Forever as I read. That is sovereign authority.

Annihilation means to perish. It means to not exist. It means to be destroyed. Killed, die, exist no more. To be dead and not alive.
This is what happens to those who do not believe.
It means to be burnt like the chaff that drifts in the wind. Dead.

 

[LeviR]

Living means to be alive. To be conscious of your surroundings.
Dead means the opposite.

 

[Butch5]

It should be clear to all that burning sulfur causes suffering to spirit/souls not annihilation.
The 2nd death is the lake of burning sulfur. The ratio of those who will be consigned to their fate as by the choices they made while in the life of the body is greater then those that receive Christ and live by as one believing in Him. Those in the lake of burning sulfur perish as they never rise again. They are in a destroyed state of existence tied to eternal suffering. God has no change of mind in that matter.

It's the throne of God and of the Lamb Forever as I read. That is sovereign authority.

Randy, can you tell me where God promised eternal life to those going into the Lake of Fire?

 

[Randy]

Randy, can you tell me where God promised eternal life to those going into the Lake of Fire?

I showed you their suffering in the burning sulfur. It's for you to show annihilation which can't be gleamed from the text. God uses the term 2nd death in regard to that suffering not life.

 

[Butch5]

I showed you their suffering in the burning sulfur. It's for you to show annihilation which can't be gleamed from the text. God uses the term 2nd death in regard to that suffering not life.

You didn't answer my question. Where are we told that the wicked get eternal life? To suffer eternally one must live eternally. Where do they get this life?

Actaully the Bible repleat with annihilation. Paul said the wages of sin is death. John wrote that God sent His Son so that those who believe would not perish. God said through Ezekiel, the soul that sins shall die. There are plenty of passages

On the flip side, try to make an argument for eternal torment without the word aion. The doctrine is based on one mistranslated word.

It's also interesting how you redefine death to fit your theology. Sorry guy, we don't get to make up definitions for words.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Annihilation means to perish. It means to not exist. It means to be destroyed. Killed, die, exist no more. To be dead and not alive.
This is what happens to those who do not believe.
It means to be burnt like the chaff that drifts in the wind. Dead.

There’s an unseen realm, a spiritual world beyond the material one we’re living in. Annihilation in this world doesn’t necessarily mean annihilation in the other world as well. What’s being tormented forever are the evil spirits, not our mortal, physical beings. They don’t return to dust, they will return to the spiritual realm and receive God’s judgement.

 

[Corinth77777]

You didn't answer my question. Where are we told that the wicked get eternal life? To suffer eternally one must live eternally. Where do they get this life?

Actaully the Bible repleat with annihilation. Paul said the wages of sin is death. John wrote that God sent His Son so that those who believe would not perish. God said through Ezekiel, the soul that sins shall die. There are plenty of passages

On the flip side, try to make an argument for eternal torment without the word aion. The doctrine is based on one mistranslated word.

It's also interesting how you redefine death to fit your theology. Sorry guy, we don't get to make up definitions for words.

So the Argument is that people do not burn for ever and ever - always- without end?

I have a couple of questions> First noting as I noted before of an article That I could not find where this man claimed that the lake of fire was God's people.

But b4 I make my statement . Lets me bring up some thoughts.

1. Do not fear the one that can destroy the body, but the one that can destroy the body, soul snd Spirit in Ghenna.<---- I think this is a scripture somewhere but don't quote it.

2. I like the comment Willard made when He said something like- Heaven could be like hell for someone that did not like to stay close to Jesus as they could have in the world.

With those thoughts in mind - and if I remember correctly from a studying I was doing on eternal life vs. Life eternal a long long time ago,

One of those meant the quality of life zoe aiones- something like that-

Thinking aloud--> I give them eternal life,
Maybe knowledge of Him, Jesus Christ and God.

Eterlife is in the son-

So my thought is the life in you is eternal , and you with it= eternal life "zoe" for you

Now what would it look like for the members of Christ in one body....where Christ is the head- for those who chose not God if they were thrown in the midst?

If there are things that if we do them today burn coals over the head of folk. Then? Could not the quality of life of the body of Christ burn for those baptised/ thrown in the midst of them? Them meaning the body, members of Christ?

What is thrown in the lake of anyway?
So this was just a thought don't hurt me
A thought that may just incorporate another way of thinking about eternal from being in what is eternal, the quality of life itself.

But I have no backing on the Lake of fire..never could find the article...

 

[Randy]

You didn't answer my question. Where are we told that the wicked get eternal life? To suffer eternally one must live eternally. Where do they get this life?

Actaully the Bible repleat with annihilation. Paul said the wages of sin is death. John wrote that God sent His Son so that those who believe would not perish. God said through Ezekiel, the soul that sins shall die. There are plenty of passages

On the flip side, try to make an argument for eternal torment without the word aion. The doctrine is based on one mistranslated word.

It's also interesting how you redefine death to fit your theology. Sorry guy, we don't get to make up definitions for words.

Again God uses 2nd death to describe that eternal suffering. Likewise so do I. Your eternal life language is of your own doing trying to reason away what should have been clear to you. I don't know why you persist in annihilation as it's not found in the Bible. You have been shown that the burning sulfur causes torment on those souls so judged. You're the one who has not answered with scripture to shown annihilation.