[_ Old Earth _] Another Error Found

[Cygnus]

Happened at the right time, in the right area, and nicely fits the Biblical description. We don't know for sure if it's the flood of the Bible, or if the Flood is a parable. For a Christian, it doesn't matter, just as it doesn't matter if there was a real Good Samaritan who helped out a Jewish traveler when his own people would not.

As a christian it doesn't matter as belief in a world wide flood doesn't effect our salvation. But it does matter because it is part of christian theology. 2 Peter 2:5 Matt 24:38 are two of them.

Now, as to a local flood...and this positively crushes the local flood idea....Gen 9:11 I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.”

Local floods happen....Considering God said...NEVER AGAIN...that would mean God was being deceptive...unless the flood was world wide.

As you now see, it does precisely so.

I see that I precisley crushed your concept of a local flood.

I showed you the context. "Eretz", which is used for the flood story, refers to some expanse of land. "Tevel" which is used when speaking of the whole world, is not used in that story.

If you say so.

I think even a 5th grader knows the difference between "land" and "world."

A firh grader would understand the nuance of the word meant global. Just as the natural reading of the text indicates.

 

[Cygnus]

Let's look at the logistics of this a little bit. God caused a flood that was so deep they were unable to see dry land (including mountain ranges) for weeks after the rains ceased. If the water was that deep how could only be localized, considering many of the mountains in the region which we are referring are high enough that logic would dictate that most, if not the entirety, of the world was under water?

Excellent point....The local sect will have a hard time refuting it.

 

[Cygnus]

That's what it says literally. If it meant the entire world, it would have used the word for world.



It doesn't say so.

Jer 25:25 all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another, and all the kingdoms of the world that are on the face of the earth. And after them the king of Babylon shall drink.

You were saying?

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
That's what it says literally. If it meant the entire world, it would have used the word for world. But it did not. It used "earth" meaning an area of land, not the world. There are other passages that do use the word for world, but this one does not.

Jer 25:25 all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another, and all the kingdoms of the world that are on the face of the earth. And after them the king of Babylon shall drink.

You were saying?

Good example. That one uses "tevel" for world. When God says "world" that's what He means. But the Noah story uses "earth" instead of "world."

For the reasons noted above. Also, remember that in scripture. "world" often means "the part of the world we know."

Luke 2:1 AND it came to pass, that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that the whole world should be enrolled.''

Obviously, in Augustus' time, people knew the Roman Empire wasn't the whole world, but the Bible uses is as a figure of speech for the Empire. Eretz was not used for anything that large.

 

[Cygnus]

Barbarian observes:
That's what it says literally. If it meant the entire world, it would have used the word for world. But it did not. It used "earth" meaning an area of land, not the world. There are other passages that do use the word for world, but this one does not.

Jer 25:25 all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another, and all the kingdoms of the world that are on the face of the earth. And after them the king of Babylon shall drink.



Good example. That one uses "tevel" for world. When God says "world" that's what He means. But the Noah story uses "earth" instead of "world."

For the reasons noted above. Also, remember that in scripture. "world" often means "the part of the world we know."

Luke 2:1 AND it came to pass, that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that the whole world should be enrolled.''

Obviously, in Augustus' time, people knew the Roman Empire wasn't the whole world, but the Bible uses is as a figure of speech for the Empire. Eretz was not used for anything that large.

If you still NEED to believe your argument...so be it. You're still wrong. Sorry, Genesis informs us in the simple reading that a 5th grader can understand to be global.

Gen 6:17 "Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth (776), to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth (776) shall perish.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.(716) 2 The earth (716) was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

At least admitt it was global per the scripture Barbarian.

 

[Barbarian]

If you still NEED to believe your argument...so be it. You're still wrong.

If at the end, you have no argument but an unsupported assertion, isn't that a clue about your position?

Sorry, Genesis informs us in the simple reading that a 5th grader can understand that it's not global. Never says that it is, as you just learned. When scrupture intends it to mean the entire world, it uses "tevel", not "eretz."

At least admit it wasn't global per the scripture, Cygnus.[/QUOTE]

 

[Cygnus]

If at the end, you have no argument but an unsupported assertion, isn't that a clue about your position?

Sorry, Genesis informs us in the simple reading that a 5th grader can understand that it's not global. Never says that it is, as you just learned. When scrupture intends it to mean the entire world, it uses "tevel", not "eretz."

At least admit it wasn't global per the scripture, Cygnus.

[/QUOTE]

It was very much global...that's what the bible teaches. Sorry.

 

[Barbarian]

It was very much global...that's what the bible teaches.

As you learned, the Bible doesn't say global. It doesn't say worldwide. "Global" would have been an anachronism, since the early Hebrews considered the world to be flat with the sky as a dome overhead. So if God had suddenly told them the world was a globe, they wouldn't understand. That's why He said "land", (eretz) not "world" (tevel) when he described the flood.

"Global" is a modern revision men added to make scripture more acceptable to them.

 

[Cygnus]

As you learned, the Bible doesn't say global. It doesn't say worldwide. "Global" would have been an anachronism, since the early Hebrews considered the world to be flat with the sky as a dome overhead. So if God had suddenly told them the world was a globe, they wouldn't understand. That's why He said "land", (eretz) not "world" (tevel) when he described the flood.

"Global" is a modern revision men added to make scripture more acceptable to them.

Apparently you mssed the point of post 85.

 

[Barbarian]

Apparently you mssed the point of post 85.

You've just confused eretz (land) with tevel (world). They are used for different things in the Bible, as you have seen. Once you get that cleared up you will see why God didn't say that the flood was global.

 

[Cygnus]

You've just confused eretz (land) with tevel (world). They are used for different things in the Bible, as you have seen. Once you get that cleared up you will see why God didn't say that the flood was global.

So, what you're saying is that gen 1;1 should read like this....
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the land.(716) 2 The land (716) was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Psalm 139:15 uses eretz......My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.

Same with Proverbs 3:19 The LORD by wisdom founded the earth, By understanding He established the heavens.

And isaiah 24;19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.

also Isaiah 51:13 That you have forgotten the LORD your Maker, Who stretched out the heavens And laid the foundations of the earth,

Should I find some more verses that use eretz in a nuance that doesn't mean land?

 

[Barbarian]

I get what you're trying to say. But it just doesn't work. "Land" doesn't mean "global." As I pointed out, the Israelitest, at the time of the Noah Story being written down, were not aware that the world is a globe. And even so, they used an entirely different world for "the whole world."

Why not just accept it as He gave it to you?

 

[Cygnus]

I get what you're trying to say. But it just doesn't work. "Land" doesn't mean "global." As I pointed out, the Israelitest, at the time of the Noah Story being written down, were not aware that the world is a globe. And even so, they used an entirely different world for "the whole world."

Why not just accept it as He gave it to you?

Sorry jim, but the language clearly speaks of a world wide flood. A local flood make no sense. Now you may need a local flood to square with your OE views....but you'll realize it just doesn't work.

 

[Barbarian]

Sorry jim, but the language clearly speaks of a world wide flood.

It never speaks of a worldwide flood. The word used for "world" by the Israelites was never used in the flood story.

A local flood make no sense.

The Bible doesn't say it's worldwide. The evidence shows no sign of a worldwide flood. There was a huge flood in the Middle East at the right time to have Noah's flood. Only a local flood makes any sense at all.

Now you may need a local flood to square with your OE views....

And with scripture, and with the evidence. It's hard to twist it around to anything else.

A global flood just doesn't work.

 

[Barbarian]

In the Noah story, the Septuagint records that the earth was covered by water, using the Greek "ge", meaning "land", not "kosmos", meaning the whole world.

So, the Jewish people of pre-Christian times did not believe that the entire world had been covered by water, even after they discovered that it was a globe.

 

[Cygnus]

As you learned, it never speaks of a worldwide flood. The word used for "world" by the Israelites was never used in the flood story.

so far I have shown where the natural reading of Genesis presents a world wide flood. The language tells of it.
I have shown where you were mistaken by presenting verses containing the word "eretz"...which you said only meant "land". In other words the text in other portions of the bible proved you to be incorrect...yet you continue to use that argument.

We can even step it up a notch...Peter in his books refers to the flood as being world wide.

2 Peter 3:4 “Where is the promise of His coming?” they will ask. “Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world of that time perished in the flood.

It's there Barbarian...world.
The local flood sect was predicted as "they deliberately overlook the fact"

2 Peter 3:11 clearly adds to the concept of a world wide flood.
11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.b That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

The verse above mentions a new earth...the first earth was destroyed by water....our current earth will be destroyed in a different fashion.

More from Peter....
2 Peter 2:5
if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight;

It's there Barbarian...world.

Even the author of Hebrews presented the flood as world wide.
Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Now, if you find that unconvincing...lets go back to Genesis where a world wide flood once again is mentioned along with a promise:
Gen 9: 8Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9“I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”

12And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, 15I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. 16Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.”

The bible speaks of a world wide flood...

 

[Barbarian]

It might be better to come up with a convincing explanation as to why the Bible uses "land" instead of "world" to describe the flood, and uses "world" everywhere it actually means "world."

 

[Cygnus]

I don't think denial is going to do much good for you. Instead of that, it might be better for you do come up with a convincing explanation as to why the Bible uses "land" instead of "world" to describe the flood, and uses "world" everywhere it actually means "world."

You have been shown... The word for land has several nuances. It doesn't always mean "land" in the form you insist it to be.
This shows complete disrespect for language as you force your definition upon the Word of God.

Don't believe me? I checked out your claims. Did my due diligence...The folowing is only several from Strongs concordance pertaining to the word 776 erets. Click on it.
1. a. earth, whole earth (opposed to a part)
b. earth, opposed to heaven, sky
c. earth = inhabitants of earth
2 land =
a. country, territory,
b. district, region
....and the nuances go on and on.

Gen 7:19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered.
The entire heavens consist of every area of the earth. Not a local area.

 

[calvin]

Hello calvin here.
If I may offer a thought here.
To me it seems reasonable to talk about land when dealing with a global flood...why?
Because the idea was to kill off all the land based life, and nothing was said about killing off any marine life.
Really, why would one talk about flooding the ocean/s.
So I think the distinction that can be made in reference to the Flood is that the Lord was intent on wiping out all land borne life only. Gen 7:4 For in seven days I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and every living thing that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground.” Esv
Everything off the face of the ground/earth would include every continent that existed in those days. Flood waters covering rivers, lakes and oceans is meaningless, so it is not surprising that no mention be made, nor does it offer any support to the notion of a localized flood.
Well that is my take on the matter.

 

[Cygnus]

Hello calvin here.
If I may offer a thought here.
To me it seems reasonable to talk about land when dealing with a global flood...why?
Because the idea was to kill off all the land based life, and nothing was said about killing off any marine life.
Really, why would one talk about flooding the ocean/s.
So I think the distinction that can be made in reference to the Flood is that the Lord was intent on wiping out all land borne life only. Gen 7:4 For in seven days I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and every living thing that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground.” Esv
Everything of the face of the ground/earth would include every continent that existed in those days. Flood waters covering rivers, lakes and oceans is meaningless, so in is not surprising that no mention be made, nor does it offer any support to the notion of a localized flood.
Well that is my take on the matter.

Makes sense to me. But there are some who insist a word has only one meaning.