[_ Old Earth _] Another Error Found

[calvin]

Hello calvin here.
I thought I had said my peace here, however with the tabling of 2Peter 3:3:7, I might add that with regard to v6, the noun "world" (kosmos) means the whole world, not a part of it, nor a distinction between Jew and Gentile, but the entire 'circle' of the Earth.
So the context is speaking to a global deluge (flood).

 

[Papa Zoom]

I understand. I can do the same thing with the resurrection of Christ.

If Christ's resurrection didn't happen your faith is of no value. If there was a local flood and not the entire globe, it affects nothing in matters of salvation.

 

[Cygnus]

If Christ's resurrection didn't happen your faith is of no value. If there was a local flood and not the entire globe, it affects nothing in matters of salvation.

If there was no flood it effects the truthfulness of the Bible

 

[Cygnus]

Hello calvin here.
I thought I had said my peace here, however with the tabling of 2Peter 3:3:7, I might add that with regard to v6, the noun "world" (kosmos) means the whole world, not a part of it, nor a distinction between Jew and Gentile, but the entire 'circle' of the Earth.
So the context is speaking to a global deluge (flood).

Yes, the authors of the NT often confirm the OT. The flood was global.

Another interesting point, the Bible talks of the destruction of the east by fire....compares it to the flood.
If the flood was local....will the destruction with fire also be a local fire?

 

[Papa Zoom]

If there was no flood it effects the truthfulness of the Bible

Hold on. I didn't say there wasn't a flood. No one else did either as far as I know.

 

[Cygnus]

Actually what I was trying to show was the diversity of opinion on the matter. If you didn't visit it the STR link, give that one a try. He doesn't say either way (local or entire world) but he does show how to think about it. It's an interesting topic to discuss. However, in the end everyone has to come to their own conclusion. Most of my friends are YE and WW flood. I'm OE and Local. (they'd say I'm loco) But I know I could be wrong.

It means the world that was in view given the type of judgement God wanted to deliver....To that I have to say? really?

 

[Cygnus]

Hold on. I didn't say there wasn't a flood. No one else did either as far as I know.

I was simply making a comment about what the lack of a world wide flood does to the Bible.
Often the local floodist believe in an old earth and evolutionism.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I was simply making a comment about what the lack of a world wide flood does to the Bible.
Often the local floodist believe in an old earth and evolutionism.

I don't think a local flood changes anything

 

[Barbarian]

I don't think a local flood changes anything

Not as far as God's lesson to us goes. And that's the point of scripture. So it's an open question, not something that matters theologically or in terms of faith.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Not as far as God's lesson to us goes. And that's the point of scripture. So it's an open question, not something that matters theologically or in terms of faith.

I fully agree

 

[Cygnus]

I don't think a local flood changes anything

If the flood was local, earth is old, and evolutionism happened...you might as well throw your bible into the trash.

 

[calvin]

If the flood was local, earth is old, and evolutionism happened...you might as well throw your bible into the trash.

Hello calvin here,
I don't see it as you do.
For sure I believe in a global flood, but considering the possibility of a local flood, (and I am only willing to so consider because nothing is impossible for the Lord) there may have been several 'local' floods at times all over the world.
I don't think the young Earth/Old Earth issue hinges on the flood, I know many apologists do use the flood to support a young Earth, but I think there is a flaw in that logic.
But that said, I think the fossil record and geology unwittingly support a global flood because the various fossil bearing rock strata are of the same age no matter where they are located.
Sure there are fossil bearing sedimentary strata that are said to belong to different geologic ages, however that, apart from being up for dispute, doesn't alter the fact that fossils are to be found the world over in strata that is labelled with the same age.

I do want to take the time to follow those links supplied by Pappa Zoom though, so I'll go quiet for a little while.

 

[Papa Zoom]

If the flood was local, earth is old, and evolutionism happened...you might as well throw your bible into the trash.

That's not the way I see it. And evolution did and does happen. We see it in the micro world all the time. On a macro scale it doesn't seem possible in my view. I don't hold to evolution but do believe God designed His creation to adapt. We see adaption all the time. Adaption and micro evolution seem to me to be the same thing. Change within species.

A local flood would have covered many many miles. It certainly would have covered the known world at the time. God has existed from eternity past. Not in a time-line way but more like the every present now. You can't traverse an infinite amount of time to get to this moment so infinite time is out. Somewhere however, in His infinite existence He created the heavens and the earth. I think He did so through the laws of physics that He also created. Billions of years is nothing to God which is why I have no problem with it. I also think there are many mysteries we don't know. The fossil recored tells us only small snapshots of history on this planet.

Of course I could be totally wrong in everything I just said. And that doesn't bother me since it has nothing to do with my faith. It's fun to discuss but that's as far as it goes. God created everything from nothing. The details are unimportant to me since I don't have the kind of mind necessary to understand them anyway.

 

[Knotical]

The only flood possible at the time of Noah is a world-wide flood as it rained for so long, and was so deep, entire mountains were under water. There is no possible way that would be localized.

As for evolution, I do not even believe in micro-evolution. Everything in nature points to an intelligent designer. Otherwise everything would just fall apart.

 

[jasonc]

If one is dogmatic about Genesis like that ,why not escatology?sometimes literal renderings of eschatology forces one to admit that their position says the law returns and the blood wasNT sufficient.

I am a young earth creationist, but taking Genesis to say what it doesn't say much about isn't wise.

 

[Papa Zoom]

The only flood possible at the time of Noah is a world-wide flood as it rained for so long, and was so deep, entire mountains were under water. There is no possible way that would be localized.

As for evolution, I do not even believe in micro-evolution. Everything in nature points to an intelligent designer. Otherwise everything would just fall apart.

What is microevolution? - Understanding Evolution
evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evoscales_02
Microevolution is simply a change in gene frequency within a population. Evolution at this scale can be observed over short periods of time — for example, between one generation and the next, the frequency of a gene for pesticide resistance in a population of crop pests increases.

It's God's way of helping species to their surroundings. It's what happens when a bacteria becomes resistant to drugs where it once could be killed off (but the stronger ones survived and passed on the resistant genes). It's not evolution in the Darwinian sense (on the grander scale). It's why we can breed dogs and create new breeds. That's all micro means.

 

[Knotical]

What is microevolution? - Understanding Evolution
evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evoscales_02
Microevolution is simply a change in gene frequency within a population. Evolution at this scale can be observed over short periods of time — for example, between one generation and the next, the frequency of a gene for pesticide resistance in a population of crop pests increases.

It's God's way of helping species to their surroundings. It's what happens when a bacteria becomes resistant to drugs where it once could be killed off (but the stronger ones survived and passed on the resistant genes). It's not evolution in the Darwinian sense (on the grander scale). It's why we can breed dogs and create new breeds. That's all micro means.

You are using a source from a secular institution to explain something that was developed and pushed by secular scientists to argue against intelligent design?

 

[Papa Zoom]

You are using a source from a secular institution to explain something that was developed and pushed by secular scientists to argue against intelligent design?

No, I'm a proponent of intelligent design. Intelligent science holds to micro evolution. Meaning exactly what I posted above. It's exactly what we can observe in real time. Bacteria developing resistance to antibodies is what is meant by micro evolution.
https://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/07/microevolution/ <---written by those holding to Intelligent Design

 

[Knotical]

No, I'm a proponent of intelligent design. Intelligent science holds to micro evolution. Meaning exactly what I posted above. It's exactly what we can observe in real time. Bacteria developing resistance to antibodies is what is meant by micro evolution.
https://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/07/microevolution/ <---written by those holding to Intelligent Design

No it doesn't. Bacteria acts the way it was designed. Evolution suggests that things develop randomly. Intelligent design suggests that things will adapt and change they way they were designed to.

 

[Papa Zoom]

No it doesn't. Bacteria acts the way it was designed. Evolution suggests that things develop randomly. Intelligent design suggests that things will adapt and change they way they were designed to.

I think the problem is the word evolve. Doesn't matter as your definition (your final sentence above) is the one I hold to and that's more important. We agree that things will adapt and change (per the ID model) the way that God designed them. That's exactly what I believe too.