Another Search

[JohnDB]

This year I've got a new focus.

In the past I've looked at blindness...how people can't see/understand something plain in front of them.

Now I'm going to look at a phenomena of purposefully ignoring of the truth.

A Jewish lady wrote an article for GQ magazine about Hillsong Church in NY and the pastor with his hat and everyone wearing that hat. (I want that hat too)

In the article she found that she believed in the message and the others who believe but refused to act on it.

It would cost her her career, identity, and objectivity. So she refused.
And that is generally what I find to be true.
The purposeful blindness is sometimes a choice...
We choose our brand of religion because of willing blindness... Never mind the truth...arrogance must be served.

There are those that seek truth and those seeking righteousness. If I seek to be just good I'll not get the truth...and will miss the mark. Rules are meant to be broken after all. But when I seek the truth I find this razor narrow edge of acceptable behavior that refuses any questions.

So how do people turn their backs on the truth? Why? Especially when the consequences are sure and severe.
We all do it to some extent. Shooting ourselves in the foot is a human pastime since Adam and Eve (Hawwa for those...)
Some use a BB gun and others a 155mm Howitzer.

If there is a way around this... And cause a person to act in their own best interest... That might help.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A Jewish lady wrote an article for GQ magazine about Hillsong Church in NY and the pastor with his hat and everyone wearing that hat. (I want that hat too)

Not to miss the point of your post, but can you post a pic of his hat?

 

[JohnDB]

Not to miss the point of your post, but can you post a pic of his hat?

Can't really from this phone. But its a cross between a cowboy hat and a fedora.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So how do people turn their backs on the truth? Why? Especially when the consequences are sure and severe.

I think it's because people think they can get out of it in the end.

 

[JohnDB]

I think it's because people think they can get out of it in the end.

Possibility of that.

People seem to have this belief that they are good. And if "saved" that they once were bad but now they are good.

As if.

How common is the story of people who did all kinds of bad things but now do "good" things? The real issue isn't relevant. They do not want to recognize that they still can be wrong...and probably are.

I'm still a murderous theif who is adulterous and teaching people about the wrong God. That really isn't owned by most. Maybe said in false humility but not owned.

Even the heathen believe that they are good. So how is a Christian any different?

By admitting he was and is wrong still to this day. Continually working out his salvation... Even about the "big things".

So how to work that into another's wheelhouse is the focus this year.

 

[Obadiah]

This year I've got a new focus.

In the past I've looked at blindness...how people can't see/understand something plain in front of them.

Now I'm going to look at a phenomena of purposefully ignoring of the truth.

A Jewish lady wrote an article for GQ magazine about Hillsong Church in NY and the pastor with his hat and everyone wearing that hat. (I want that hat too)

In the article she found that she believed in the message and the others who believe but refused to act on it.

It would cost her her career, identity, and objectivity. So she refused.
And that is generally what I find to be true.
The purposeful blindness is sometimes a choice...
We choose our brand of religion because of willing blindness... Never mind the truth...arrogance must be served.

There are those that seek truth and those seeking righteousness. If I seek to be just good I'll not get the truth...and will miss the mark. Rules are meant to be broken after all. But when I seek the truth I find this razor narrow edge of acceptable behavior that refuses any questions.

So how do people turn their backs on the truth? Why? Especially when the consequences are sure and severe.
We all do it to some extent. Shooting ourselves in the foot is a human pastime since Adam and Eve (Hawwa for those...)
Some use a BB gun and others a 155mm Howitzer.

If there is a way around this... And cause a person to act in their own best interest... That might help.

If you are talking about Christians in particular, I think your perspective is flawed here. I don't think many Christians (or people in general for that matter) purposefully ignore or refuse to believe the truth at all. (Speaking of scriptural truth here, of course.) At least not people with rational sound minds free of debilitating mental illness or disability. The problem is that the people who lead the church and have used the church as a gateway to power over others have had about 2000 years to perfect the distorting of the truth of scripture for their own gain. They've confused things so badly that it's hard to know what is true and what is just some human person's idea of what they think is true. Just because they might have a well known name among church leaders doesn't necessarily make them right about everything either.

Now what you believe, you consider truth of course. Why would you claim to believe it if you did not consider it to be true? But someone who believes differently than you also sees their belief as truth. Why would they claim to believe it if they did not consider it to be true? In fact, they will look at you the same way, wondering how you could be "purposefully ignoring of the truth"! Do you see the dilemma in this?

So I don't think there is any issue with most Christians of purposefully refusing to believe truth. I think it's an issue of different people having different interpretations of what is true. This has been going on since the beginning and even Paul had to deal with it, and it seems Paul didn't have such a big problem with it either. He talks about this in Romans 14:2-3 (ESV) where he says "One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him" This is exactly the same thing that is going on today, except today we have had 2000 years of sometimes very bad leadership to compound things.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

If you are talking about Christians in particular, I think your perspective is flawed here. I don't think many Christians (or people in general for that matter) purposefully ignore or refuse to believe the truth at all. (Speaking of scriptural truth here, of course.) At least not people with rational sound minds free of debilitating mental illness or disability. The problem is that the people who lead the church and have used the church as a gateway to power over others have had about 2000 years to perfect the distorting of the truth of scripture for their own gain. They've confused things so badly that it's hard to know what is true and what is just some human person's idea of what they think is true. Just because they might have a well known name among church leaders doesn't necessarily make them right about everything either.

Now what you believe, you consider truth of course. Why would you claim to believe it if you did not consider it to be true? But someone who believes differently than you also sees their belief as truth. Why would they claim to believe it if they did not consider it to be true? In fact, they will look at you the same way, wondering how you could be "purposefully ignoring of the truth"! Do you see the dilemma in this?

So I don't think there is any issue with most Christians of purposefully refusing to believe truth. I think it's an issue of different people having different interpretations of what is true. This has been going on since the beginning and even Paul had to deal with it, and it seems Paul didn't have such a big problem with it either. He talks about this in Romans 14:2-3 (ESV) where he says "One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him" This is exactly the same thing that is going on today, except today we have had 2000 years of sometimes very bad leadership to compound things.

I could be wrong here Obadiah, but it sounds like JohnDB is addressing two things. One is blindness and not seeing the truth. The other is seeing it and still turning away from it. I think what you're describing about seeing things differently is closer to the phenomon of blindness, then it is about rejecting the truth that you see.

That said no matter how it's looked at, you make an excellent point on how we are to handle it from Romans 14:2-3. If God welcomes us, then our salvation is bigger and better then our faults and misunderstandings.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

This year I've got a new focus.

In the past I've looked at blindness...how people can't see/understand something plain in front of them.

Now I'm going to look at a phenomena of purposefully ignoring of the truth.

A Jewish lady wrote an article for GQ magazine about Hillsong Church in NY and the pastor with his hat and everyone wearing that hat. (I want that hat too)

In the article she found that she believed in the message and the others who believe but refused to act on it.

It would cost her her career, identity, and objectivity. So she refused.
And that is generally what I find to be true.
The purposeful blindness is sometimes a choice...
We choose our brand of religion because of willing blindness... Never mind the truth...arrogance must be served.

There are those that seek truth and those seeking righteousness. If I seek to be just good I'll not get the truth...and will miss the mark. Rules are meant to be broken after all. But when I seek the truth I find this razor narrow edge of acceptable behavior that refuses any questions.

So how do people turn their backs on the truth? Why? Especially when the consequences are sure and severe.
We all do it to some extent. Shooting ourselves in the foot is a human pastime since Adam and Eve (Hawwa for those...)
Some use a BB gun and others a 155mm Howitzer.

If there is a way around this... And cause a person to act in their own best interest... That might help.

There's a few situtions I've seen that I think might help JohnDB, but for all of them it comes down to the context of the sitution, just as much as the refusal of the truth.

When it comes to seeing how you should be and seeing a lot of stress with that, because of the burden or because of what you lose in order to do it, I don't think it's too uncommon for a person to reject the truth in front of them. For instance a man (or woman) cheating on their spouse may be very deep into both relationships before finally realizing the consquences of those actions are going to be as bad as they are. Then when that person has to try and make things right, they might know the truth, that holding on to his wife and his now committed fling is hurting them both, as well as any family started between either of them. Choosing one means losing the other, even though the truth is now clear not choosing either hurts them both and shows no concern for them. Rejecting the truth because of loss or a burden is probabley not too uncommon.

Another one could be that the truth is just too foreign for the person to accept. The question of how God allows the pain an suffering in the world to the scale that it exists might be enough for a person to reject God on principle. I've heard this argument before, and though I'm not sure any of them that had that argument has known the truth that God exists, I wonder if any of them get the experience to know the truth that they wouldn't reject God on principle before ever understanding more.

On a lesser level of accepting or rejecting God, I think I know Christians who accept that they are saved, but reject the idea of the end times suffering. Being too foreign for how they see God to allow and even actively invoke that suffering, they don't accept it, and in doing so don't accept that a paradise/kingdom on earth will ever happen, or happen as described in the bible. Even if a person accepts God, and accepts the bible to be from God, they might still reject this part. Though it's hopefully as bad as it could be if their salvation isn't dependent on accepting that truth.

 

[JohnDB]

The responses are fantastic...and some kinda expected.

But in a more basic explanation we all know of people who are Christian and yet do have extramarital affairs...and then marry the adulterer after divorcing their spouses. Who then wonder why all the persecution of them.

And I also know of a lady who was Jewish. She converted to Christianity. But she believed that she was doubly blessed to be Jewish and a believer...when I showed her the scriptures which said otherwise she refused to accept them. Yes she knew the truth but wanted to believe otherwise and was fond of stating her "elevated" status.

And then there are the many "unbelievers". They know God's commands and that He is real but deliberately behave otherwise because they don't want God to be real. They have even become outspoken Atheists at times... Or ex-believers. Seen all of this more times than I can count.

What does seem to have an effect is the asking about which Commandments that you have broken and and you have broken them. Then get them to ask God for forgiveness.
But does that work for the long term or are the conversions temporary at best?
Making them the focus of my question...why turn away from the truth? Is it too inconvenient? Or something else?
Why choose death over life? Why choose pleasure over true joy? Why choose Misery over comfort? Why not admit that you could have an incorrect view and someone else is more logical?

It doesn't seem to make sense to me. Sane people making insane choices.

 

[Obadiah]

Agreed, some things are more obvious than others in scripture.

 

[dianegcook]

Regardless,
His sheep hear His voice.
Problem is, everyone thinks they hear it, lol.

Different denominations that divide.
There is one truth,
That is why I believe everyone, include myself, should seek that they may find the truth, regardless of what your church says, or denomination.

Let your spirit be one with His.
As written in Eph.5:17
The Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.

 

[Obadiah]

Yes. A pastor of a church I used to attend was very fond of pointing people to the Bible for the truth. He was constantly pointing out what the bible actually said or didn't say. NOT what people THINK it says, or what people have been TOLD it says, but what it ACTUALLY says. Read and understand the context. Understand the history behind what is said. This is where truth is, not in what someone else tells you it says. And you know what? When you actually read it for what it says, it's a lot easier to understand and to follow than you have been lead to believe!

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno. I'm relatively new to all this, and I find the number of Protestant denominations overwhelming and, honestly, frightening. I was raised Presbyterian, then saved by the Pentecostals. Both say the other is wrong, but then sometimes muster up a little diplomacy, as in "well, we can agree to disagree." That sort of thing bothers me.

That said...I think God blesses us despite our misunderstandings of Him.

 

[JohnDB]

Regardless,
His sheep hear His voice.
Problem is, everyone thinks they hear it, lol.

No kidding.

But in times past there have been created whole denominations based upon one person's hermeneutics. (An obvious error) How people can get caught up in this sort of thing is beyond me.

Today we have access to the truth by careful study.
The truth is out there...but so are a bunch of lies. The Jehovah Witnesses have had to "retranslate" the whole Bible as the standard translations all disagree with their doctrines.
Other denominations have also created their own translations as certain doctrines come into conflict with scriptures as translated by persons who did not share those doctrines. (There can be no perfect English translation... Just can't be)

Which brings out the question again...most denominations have their own translations as the scriptures can be "bent" to promote or demote things.

People say that the Bible says nothing about abortion.... Uh..I hate to say so but it does. We just deliberately ignore the hermeneutics that should be applied to the appropriate passages.

So...why?

Could the Baptists give up their minds about full immersion for Baptism?
The Charismatics about speaking in tongues? Presbyterian renouncing Calvinism? Or even the Catholics about praying to Mary?

Highly unlikely... Even if a scholar of that denomination came across full proof contextually accurate that they were wrong as a denomination in some doctrine they generally don't speak out. Occasionally yes, but normally no. Why?

And the search goes on.

Maybe Jesus should have made a beatitude along the lines of "Blessed are the most theologically correct for they shall...)

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

...
Highly unlikely... Even if a scholar of that denomination came across full proof contextually accurate that they were wrong as a denomination in some doctrine they generally don't speak out. Occasionally yes, but normally no. Why?

And the search goes on.

Maybe Jesus should have made a beatitude along the lines of "Blessed are the most theologically correct for they shall...)

This has been going on since the beginning and even Paul had to deal with it, and it seems Paul didn't have such a big problem with it either. He talks about this in Romans 14:2-3 (ESV) where he says "One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him" This is exactly the same thing that is going on today, except today we have had 2000 years of sometimes very bad leadership to compound things.

Just thought this was a good point. Worth considering with the other point.

 

[JohnDB]

Just thought this was a good point. Worth considering with the other point.

There have been a few people coming to mind who have stood up against all with clear and concise hermeneutics. They were demonized for decades except by a few who finally got the logic of their theologies out. Now granted not all of their perspectives were perfect but each radically changed a portion of theology.
Most people today go to one guy for his commentary on the book of Hebrews...(whether they know it or not) and most others build upon his work if they make a new one because of his work in translating midrash, Sifre, and Talmud.
But he was demonized because there wasn't anyone's particular denomination that had it completely correct. Even he, himself, claimed no denominational alliance but claimed a few things that we today think of as heresy. (Hey, no one is perfect). And I often wonder if the sole reason he claimed those obvious heresies was so others would listen to the preponderance of truth he had conflicting with every denomination in existence.

Today we have famous liberal pastors claiming that sinful lifestyles are not only acceptable to God but endorsed. In obvious contradiction with scriptures. Why ?

Sure, some things can be subject to interpretation and hermeneutic preference...all allowed with unintended blindness or the lesson about Potter and clay, But others can't.
Why is it that some people prefer to believe and/or teach lies?

Once upon a time people used different lead compounds to sweeten wine. It was thought to be even healthy to do so. Today the fear of lead poisoning keeps us from doing so. How was the change made? Why did some continue to use those compounds even though they knew them to be poison?

When I, personally, put forth a theological point I do it with great care. I don't wish to be wrong. But I also know that this is the internet. No one is going to follow me in starting a church. I am not a pastor... Just an electrician. I don't even lead a Small group at my church. But the attacks on any point theological would make a person believe otherwise. And it seems that the more logical the more venom involved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why is it that some people prefer to believe and/or teach lies?

Pride. That's the plain and simple answer. But in the end, on the Day of Judgment, the reason people have preferred the lie over the truth is they love unrighteousness--they love sin more than they do righteousness:

"wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." (2 Thessalonians 2:10 NIV bold and underline mine)

14“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." (Revelation 22:14-15 NIV bold mine)

See, anyone, believer and unbeliever alike, can be delivered from the precipice of pride (a fear of admitting they're wrong and acknowledging the truth). But when the underlying problem is a love for unrighteousness, rather than righteousness, you've got a hard nut to crack. Proud people can be humbled. But people who love and prefer sin as the underlying force of who they are, even after being shown the truth and even after walking in it, they are the one's that amaze us with their preference for lies, falseness, twisted doctrines, and wickedness over the plain truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Today we have famous liberal pastors claiming that sinful lifestyles are not only acceptable to God but endorsed.

Right from the very beginning after being born again I have never considered 'the church of the world' to be part of the true church. After meeting God face to face through the Holy Spirit and the written Word it became instantly obvious to me that 'the church of the world' comprised of the major denominations of the world were not of God. There might be God's true people mingling among them for various reasons, but the religious entities themselves simply do not belong to God. They belong to the world. That's why I don't get terribly concerned about their doctrine. It can only lead the blind astray, not those who can see and who love the truth.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Possibility of that.

People seem to have this belief that they are good. And if "saved" that they once were bad but now they are good.

As if.

How common is the story of people who did all kinds of bad things but now do "good" things? The real issue isn't relevant. They do not want to recognize that they still can be wrong...and probably are.

I'm still a murderous theif who is adulterous and teaching people about the wrong God. That really isn't owned by most. Maybe said in false humility but not owned.

Even the heathen believe that they are good. So how is a Christian any different?

By admitting he was and is wrong still to this day. Continually working out his salvation... Even about the "big things".

So how to work that into another's wheelhouse is the focus this year.

This is one of my most difficult points to cause folks to see. I was and I am. Much of my worst sins involved sex and to this I fight the images locked into my mind. I am no better than I was, I just restrain because my LORD has loved me and now I know it.

In spite of everything though, people think me a wonderful person with a powerful, former, testimony but my testimony will not be complete until I cross the Spiritual Jordan and people refuse to see this truth. To live a Christian Life is to do battle with my old self every day.

 

[smaller]

There is no doubt in my mind that the scriptures are preloaded with conflicts that few care to enter into.

This, being one of them:

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

This is a hard concept to wrap one's head around. We all want to make claims that God in Christ loves us. When was the last time you heard anyone make a case AGAINST themselves? Paul makes such cases against himself throughout the N.T.

But it's a story seldom told.

You'll never hear it. People don't and can't like such approaches to God.

Yet Jesus tells us flat out, that if we don't hate our own life, we can't be His disciple. This is a PRIME example, imho, of gaming our ways around Jesus' Own Words.

I've cited this example at this site so many times I'm sick of it, because none will hear of it and can't hear of it.

Here's the setup. Paul said in Romans 7:21 that evil was present with him.

Does Jesus hate evil?

YES.

Do you see how easy it is to hate yourself, using Paul's measure of himself? For me this is easy to see, even if the conclusion is unfavorable to my own sorry hide.