Answering Accusations Against God

[T. E. Smith]

I inevitably return to things, but what I'm telling you is no exaggeration. I bore incredibly easy unfortunately. Just the way I'm built.

Great. I'll remember that next time you start a topic. Right.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Great. I'll remember that next time you start a topic. Right.

You always have to get to know people online, just like I'm getting to know what topics you wish to discuss and which you are simply going to dismiss as fanciful. That's just how it works. The trick is not to get all upset. People are what they are.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The book I mentioned was a recounting of the author's supposed experiences with theistic satanism. Thus, it is a recounting of past events, and so a memoir. Why are you getting hung up on the term?

I’m not. Why do you insist on an inaccurate term?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I’m not. Why do you insist on an inaccurate term?

T.E. has demonstrated a desire to want to sanitize Satanism and distance it from its more unsavory elements. Out of necessity therefore he has to distance himself from any testimony having to do with child sacrifice, to close off any further conversation in that direction. The problem is he will then turn around and accuse you of not wanting to discuss things, while attempting to limit the discussion down to the narrow parameters of only what he judges are legitimate contributions to it.

It's not a discussion, it's a controlled lecture. And while I don't say it resentfully, one of the problems with Satanists is that they also have no qualms about being duplicitous liars, so someone pretending to be non-theistic can actually be as theistic as they come, they're just using the sanitized version to promote their religion while attacking and vilifying Christianity at the same time.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

T.E. has demonstrated a desire to want to sanitize Satanism and distance it from its more unsavory elements. Out of necessity therefore he has to distance himself from any testimony having to do with child sacrifice, to close off any further conversation in that direction. The problem is he will then turn around and accuse you of not wanting to discuss things, while attempting to limit the discussion down to the narrow parameters of only what he judges are legitimate contributions to it.

It's not a discussion, it's a controlled lecture. And while I don't say it resentfully, one of the problems with Satanists is that they also have no qualms about being duplicitous liars, so someone pretending to be non-theistic can actually be as theistic as they come, they're just using the sanitized version to promote their religion while attacking and vilifying Christianity at the same time.

The truth is always stronger than any lie.

 

[T. E. Smith]

T.E. has demonstrated a desire to want to sanitize Satanism and distance it from its more unsavory elements. Out of necessity therefore he has to distance himself from any testimony having to do with child sacrifice, to close off any further conversation in that direction. The problem is he will then turn around and accuse you of not wanting to discuss things, while attempting to limit the discussion down to the narrow parameters of only what he judges are legitimate contributions to it.

It's not a discussion, it's a controlled lecture. And while I don't say it resentfully, one of the problems with Satanists is that they also have no qualms about being duplicitous liars, so someone pretending to be non-theistic can actually be as theistic as they come, they're just using the sanitized version to promote their religion while attacking and vilifying Christianity at the same time.

What if I said, "Christianity is non-theistic, and anyone who denies this is a duplicitous liar"? Because that is EXACTLY how you are treating me. And I am not "sanitizing" it any more than Christians are sanitizing their religion when they distance themselves from Christians who bomb abortion clinics. If this is how you act, I'm done here!
And yes I am frustrated and upset when people connect me to child sacrifice and call me a duplicitous liar. No, I will not apologize. If a mod wants to ban me from this thread, they can go right ahead.

 

[Hidden In Him]

What if I said, "Christianity is non-theistic, and anyone who denies this is a duplicitous liar"? Because that is EXACTLY how you are treating me. And I am not "sanitizing" it any more than Christians are sanitizing their religion when they distance themselves from Christians who bomb abortion clinics.

I said the problem with Satanists is that they CAN be liars, which leaves the door open for you potentially being one since you readily identify as one.

 

[T. E. Smith]

I said the problem with Satanists is that they CAN be liars, which leaves the door open for you potentially being one since you readily identify as one.

That is hilarious. Christians can be liars too! All humans can. Your statement is therefore meaningless. Unless you can prove that a Satanist is more likely to lie... Which you cannot.

 

[Hopeful]

Jude prophesied that men would speak hard words against the Lord during the last days (Jude 1:14-15), so the question presented in this thread is: What would your response be if someone presented the following arguments to you?

Jethro Tull was a popular band around the time I graduated High School. I was not a Christian then so I would not have had any idea what their songs were even about, but in hearing them in later years I came to realize their lyrics were Gnostic in their spiritual orientation, and strong attacks against the character of God. Then I began wondering, "How would I have answered such arguments if I had been a Christian back then, and how would I answer them now?"

In this thread I will present two of their more popular songs, the lyrics, and what those lyrics meant. I will treat Bungle In The Jungle in a later post.
- H

Locomotive Breath. Jethro Tull, 1971.
In the shuffling madness, of the Locomotive Breath
Runs the all-time loser, headlong to his death
Oh, he feels the pistons scraping, steam breaking on his brow
Old Charlie stole the handle, and the train it won't stop, Oh no way to slow down

This song depicts the Creator as having prolonged judgment for six thousand years because He is essentially a jealous and sadistic God, continuing to allow Satan to commit evils and lead humanity into sin rather than stopping him, while nevertheless reserving him and his followers for judgment. Like a locomotive, no one can prevent this situation from continuing because God Himself ("Locomotive Breath") has "stolen the handle" that would put the brakes to it. He is the "all-time winner" in this song, while Satan (depicted sympathetically in typical Gnostic fashion) is "the all-time loser," and this is because things are going precisely according to God's plan. The argument in this song is that it is because He wants it that way.

The writer admitted in an interview that "Old Charlie" was a reference to God, something evidenced within the song itself by how he substitutes God Himself in place of "Old Charlie" in the final verse. Satan knows his judgment is coming, and thus "feels the pistons scraping," and the "steam" of the Lord's breath "breaking on his brow." Yet so long as he is still being allowed to do evil he will, so nothing is stopping evil to continue in the earth or even slow it down a little; a proof of God's supposedly sadistic and vengeful character.

He sees His children jumping off, at the stations one by one
His woman and his best friend, in bed and having fun
Well he's crawling down the corridor, on his hands and knees
Old Charlie He stole the handle, and the train it won't stop going, no way to slow down

With many coming to realize His cruelty, God's children are "jumping off the train" as it were, and departing from the faith, rejecting Him. The same point is made with, "His woman and his best friend, in bed and having fun." It's a reference to the church, i.e. His spiritual bride, committing adultery with Lucifer, depicted here as once being God's "best friend." Yet Satan is nevertheless still supposedly the victim, crawling on his hands and knees because he's fearful of God's wrath, and His sadistic jealousy.

He hears the silence howling, catches angels as they fall
And the all-time winner, has got him by the b*lls
Oh, he picks up Gideons Bible, open at page one
"I think God He stole the handle, and the train it won't stop going, no way to slow down"

Again depicts Satan sympathetically as having been cast out of Heaven, yet compassionately catching the other angels as they fall out of Heaven with him. Yet through time, Satan is now not only guilty of leading a rebellion of angels but leading the church into spiritual adultery as well, so he is now even more subject to judgment. So he reads "page one" of Gideon's Bible, which is the Genesis account and describes the fall of man and the coming judgment of the serpent. And since that judgment has been postponed indefinitely, Satan comes to the conclusion that God apparently wants these things to continue indefinitely, so he is now continuing to do evil in the earth because he feels this is what God's "will" apparently is.

As an apologist, what would your answer to such an argument be?

Btw, it's likely no coincidence that this band was led by flute player, seemingly in emulation of the pagan god Pan, whom many have equated with Satan down through later centuries.

Who supplied your "interpretation" of the lyrics?

 

[Hopeful]

That is hilarious. Christians can be liars too! All humans can. Your statement is therefore meaningless. Unless you can prove that a Satanist is more likely to lie... Which you cannot.

1)Do you believe all Christians will go to heaven?
2)Do you believe all who call themselves Christians will go to heaven?
My own answers are 1) yes, and 2) no.
It is written..."Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)
This is Jesus talking about lies and liars.
It does not sound like He is describing Christians

 

[T. E. Smith]

1)Do you believe all Christians will go to heaven?
2)Do you believe all who call themselves Christians will go to heaven?
My own answers are 1) yes, and 2) no.
It is written..."Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)
This is Jesus talking about lies and liars.
It does not sound like He is describing Christians

Your holy book says, "All mankind are liars." Remember that? Christians are humans too.

 

[Hopeful]

Your holy book says, "All mankind are liars." Remember that? Christians are humans too.

Jesus wasn't a liar, and God can't lie.
Those in Christ, those walking in God (the light), can't lie either.
Paul's Rom 3 quotes of OT writings point out how all men need the Messiah.
We have Him now, and with Him, can walk as He walked.
It is written..."He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6)
Thankyou God all mighty !!!

Christians have been reborn of God's seed.
They don't emulate Adam's seed anymore.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Jesus wasn't a liar, and God can't lie.
Those in Christ, those walking in God (the light), can't lie either.
Paul's Rom 3 quotes of OT writings point out how all men need the Messiah.
We have Him now, and with Him, can walk as He walked.
It is written..."He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6)
Thankyou God all mighty !!!

Christians have been reborn of God's seed.
They don't emulate Adam's seed anymore.

So you are on God's level or Jesus' level? My question is straightforward: Can Christians lie? Ever? Can a Christian tell a lie without losing salvation? If so, then Hidden In Him's point is meaningless. Besides, he is insinuating that Satanists lie more than other unbelievers, but he has presented no evidence.

 

[Hopeful]

So you are on God's level or Jesus' level?

That is a rather broad question.
I will tell you this, in the aspects of humanity are concerned, I am obedient to God.
If God is good, so a I.
If God is true, so am I.
If God is fair, so am I.

My question is straightforward: Can Christians lie? Ever?

No, as they have been reborn of God's seed, and seed can only bring forth after itself.
(Apple seeds cannot ever bring forth grapes.)
God's seed cannot bear liars, adulterers, or thieves.

Can a Christian tell a lie without losing salvation?

No.

If so, then Hidden In Him's point is meaningless. Besides, he is insinuating that Satanists lie more than other unbelievers, but he has presented no evidence.

I have not been following along, so I don't know what "his" point was.
I matters not to me which "religion" is the farthest from Godliness.
What matters to me is showing others the way out of those "religions" that are unGodly.

 

[T. E. Smith]

That is a rather broad question.
I will tell you this, in the aspects of humanity are concerned, I am obedient to God.
If God is good, so a I.
If God is true, so am I.
If God is fair, so am I.

No, as they have been reborn of God's seed, and seed can only bring forth after itself.
(Apple seeds cannot ever bring forth grapes.)
God's seed cannot bear liars, adulterers, or thieves.

No.

I have not been following along, so I don't know what "his" point was.
I matters not to me which "religion" is the farthest from Godliness.
What matters to me is showing others the way out of those "religions" that are unGodly.

If you think it is impossible for a Christian to lie... Well, then this conversation is like "administering medicine to the dead" (Thomas Paine), so I'm finished discussing this.