The Great White Throne Judgement

[donadams]

I agree if you're claiming there has been an office of "apostle" well past the original 12. In fact, the original 12 were initially appointed just to reach the nation Israel. But Jesus later expanded their mission to encompass the world.

When Jesus expanded the mission of the original 12 God went beyond just the 12--He appointed Paul and Barnabas. And there were other apostles mentioned in the Scriptures besides these.

The idea was to reach the nations of the world with the Gospel, no matter how many apostles it takes to do this. We don't, however, usually refer to them as "apostles," because of our concern for the original apostles called to lay the foundation of the Church.

To be counted among the apostles it was thought they had to have either been taught directly by Jesus, to avoid making interpretive errors, or they had to have a heavenly vision, confirmed by association with the original 12 apostles. So the "apostolic foundation" was laid down only in the Early Church, when there was direct access to the original 12 apostles.

Today we call those sent into the nations "missionaries." But I should think that missionaries who founded major moves of God, producing denominations, can be identified as a kind of "apostle?"

And certainly your argument comes into play when we think the apostles were sent into all nations, and yet the US and other modern nations did not yet exist in the time of the original apostles. How could apostles reach these unless the office of "apostle" continues to be in play? Thanks.

the bishops are the successors of the apostles

 

[Eternally-grateful]

there are two judgment of christ spoke of in scripture

1 Bema seat (1 cor 12) where works will be tried and rewards given, yet even the one who had their reward burned is saved.

2. great white throne - Everyone there is delivered to Christ, not raised by him, they are called death and hades. Everyone there is cast into the lake of fire.. No rewards are offered or given. because everyones fate is already sealed

 

[RandyK]

the bishops are the successors of the apostles

They certainly can be. But I wouldn't make that an iron-clad rule. The succession of kings in Israel made the successor an official king, but it certainly did not make them a godly king. Some were like David, and some were not.

Paul pointed out that there were false apostles in his day, and they may come outside of the Church and from within it, in my opinion.

 

[for_his_glory]

What I mean is that you're apparently settled on your view in the argument. I don't see where the International Church is called a "nation." There are a couple of places it may sound like this. But as I read them, they sound as if they're referring to the hope of Jewish believers in a Jewish nation. Peter, for example, was writing to Jewish believers:

1 Pet 3.9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

If you're settled on the notion that the Church is being defined as a "nation," then fine. It just doesn't make sense to me that the Church, consisting of many nations in the Bible, would also be defined as a single nation?

But I can see how someone would use "nation" as a metaphor for the entire Church if national distinctions are completely removed. And there are biblical passages that marginalize or eliminate national distinctions for one reason or another.

I believe national distinctions are de-emphasized by Paul in the matter of *qualifying for Salvation.* I don't believe Paul rendered national distinctions irrelevant or non-existent. But you decide.

I'm well aware of our unity in one body of Christ as individual believers. He is the head and we together comprise a body, though not, in my opinion, a "nation."

We will ultimately be glorified as true individual believers. But I believe God has, in this temporal environment, promised nations of faith, which consists of true believers and nominal believers.

He has done so, I believe, in order to provide a temporary state by which believers can be converted, sustained, and grown. The state mechanism does not have to be perfect to enable this development.

Again, you decide whether God promised literal "nations," or just a single metaphorical "nation."

I'm Not talking about any literal International Church (religion), but we who are Christ own throughout the world as being the collective body of Christ. Nations in the Bible can either depict a place or reference to people like that in Rev 13:1 where the beast rises up out of the sea as the word sea in that verse can be a metaphor for people.

I think we are saying the same thing, but only in a different way.

 

[RandyK]

I'm Not talking about any literal International Church (religion), but we who are Christ own throughout the world as being the collective body of Christ. Nations in the Bible can either depict a place or reference to people like that in Rev 13:1 where the beast rises up out of the sea as the word sea in that verse can be a metaphor for people.

I think we are saying the same thing, but only in a different way.

In some ways we are saying the same thing, because obviously we believe the same things. But in other ways we're not saying the same thing. No matter....

 

[Elijah7777]

Have it your way. I'm just stating what I believe, and I accept that's what you believe. The Scriptures do say what you quote them as saying. But I personally believe God promised Abraham "nations," and not just an individual "indwelling."

The new Jerusalem is 1500 by 1500 by 1500 miles. That is ALL of the Arab continental plate. Many nations are there now, so you are saying that there will continue to be many nations there during the Kingdom age. All the nations will be expected to observe the feast of Tabernacles. If they do not, then God will not send them rain. Zechariah 14:16-18

 

[Elijah7777]

the original 12 were initially appointed just to reach the nation Israel.

That is what is amazing. Jesus was not sent for the Gentiles. He called them dogs. Gentiles were often referred to as "dogs," a term reflecting their status outside God's covenant with Israel. That maybe why they talk about an old and a new covenant.

 

[for_his_glory]

What I mean is that you're apparently settled on your view in the argument. I don't see where the International Church is called a "nation." There are a couple of places it may sound like this. But as I read them, they sound as if they're referring to the hope of Jewish believers in a Jewish nation. Peter, for example, was writing to Jewish believers:

1 Pet 3.9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

If you're settled on the notion that the Church is being defined as a "nation," then fine. It just doesn't make sense to me that the Church, consisting of many nations in the Bible, would also be defined as a single nation?

But I can see how someone would use "nation" as a metaphor for the entire Church if national distinctions are completely removed. And there are biblical passages that marginalize or eliminate national distinctions for one reason or another.

I believe national distinctions are de-emphasized by Paul in the matter of *qualifying for Salvation.* I don't believe Paul rendered national distinctions irrelevant or non-existent. But you decide.

I'm well aware of our unity in one body of Christ as individual believers. He is the head and we together comprise a body, though not, in my opinion, a "nation."

We will ultimately be glorified as true individual believers. But I believe God has, in this temporal environment, promised nations of faith, which consists of true believers and nominal believers.

He has done so, I believe, in order to provide a temporary state by which believers can be converted, sustained, and grown. The state mechanism does not have to be perfect to enable this development.

Again, you decide whether God promised literal "nations," or just a single metaphorical "nation."

I'm Not talking about any literal International Church (religion), but we who are Christ own throughout the world as being the collective body of Christ. Nations in the Bible can either depict a place or reference to people like that in Rev 13:1 where the beast rises up out of the sea as the word sea in that verse can be a metaphor for people.

I think we are saying the same thing, but only in a different way.

Today we see this as a 2 step process, with the King coming 1st, humbly, without imposing his Kingdom, and later returning to impose his Kingdom by force upon the world.

Not sure what you mean here that Jesus comes two times?

The rest I can agree with.

 

[for_his_glory]

there are two judgment of christ spoke of in scripture

1 Bema seat (1 cor 12) where works will be tried and rewards given, yet even the one who had their reward burned is saved.

2. great white throne - Everyone there is delivered to Christ, not raised by him, they are called death and hades. Everyone there is cast into the lake of fire.. No rewards are offered or given. because everyones fate is already sealed

One resurrection, but two different judgements.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God. The goats being those who are not Gods will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of death and hell (grave) being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

 

[Elijah7777]

Not sure what you mean here that Jesus comes two times?

I thought you were the one that said Jesus is IN us for the Kingdom age. Just like the Holy Spirit is in us for this age or dispensation. So His physical return when his feet touch the ground must be at the end of the Kingdom age.

 

[Elijah7777]

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of death and hell (grave) being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15

Revelation 20:5 says: "This is the first resurrection". When you use the word first that means there is a second resurrection. Also there was the resurrection when Jesus went to Calvery and the Veil in the temple was torn.

 

[RandyK]

I'm Not talking about any literal International Church (religion), but we who are Christ own throughout the world as being the collective body of Christ. Nations in the Bible can either depict a place or reference to people like that in Rev 13:1 where the beast rises up out of the sea as the word sea in that verse can be a metaphor for people.

I think we are saying the same thing, but only in a different way.

Not sure what you mean here that Jesus comes two times?

The rest I can agree with.

I believe you were talking about how the Kingdom comes "without observation," that it comes "within." I'm sure Jesus recognized that in his physical presence among his Disciples he was stating that the Kingdom was in their midst.

And I was just acknowledging this, that when Jesus came the 1st time he was insisting that the Kingdom initially enter within us, so that we become prepared for the physical manifestation of the Kingdom. That will happen at the 2nd Coming. We are preparing now by letting his Spirit enter within us and rule us.

 

[for_his_glory]

I thought you were the one that said Jesus is IN us for the Kingdom age. Just like the Holy Spirit is in us for this age or dispensation. So His physical return when his feet touch the ground must be at the end of the Kingdom age.

When Christ returns on the last day He will make an end to all the evil in this world casting it into the lake of fire. This present heaven and earth will pass away being made new again as the New Jerusalem will be ushered down from Heaven. We who are Christ own have the Kingdom of God within us and will always be a part of God's Kingdom now and forever for all eternity.

IMO, A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture other than Rev 20 does it mention a 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.


I'm going to give you these scriptures for you to ponder about the Kingdom age.

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Rev 11: 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (We are that Spiritual kingdom of God while here on earth as we reign with Him over the nations)

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Revelation 20:5 says: "This is the first resurrection". When you use the word first that means there is a second resurrection. Also there was the resurrection when Jesus went to Calvery and the Veil in the temple was torn.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The rest of the dead are those of the other part of the resurrection that have been raised to damnation whose names are not found written in the Lamb’s book of life. The second death are those who rejected Christ and had no faith in God being Spiritually dead that are raised from their graves, Ephesians 2:1-10. Scripture never teaches two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29; 6:40, and a second death being that of Spiritual death and hell being the grave are cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15 as they had no Spiritual power over death. There are two separate judgments, but only one resurrection as everything from Rev 19-20 happens on the last day that has no ending. Those who are priest of God and will reign with Him are those of the Spiritual rebirth and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[for_his_glory]

I believe you were talking about how the Kingdom comes "without observation," that it comes "within." I'm sure Jesus recognized that in his physical presence among his Disciples he was stating that the Kingdom was in their midst.

And I was just acknowledging this, that when Jesus came the 1st time he was insisting that the Kingdom initially enter within us, so that we become prepared for the physical manifestation of the Kingdom. That will happen at the 2nd Coming. We are preparing now by letting his Spirit enter within us and rule us.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The kingdom of God is Spiritually within all those who are Christ own by the Spiritual rebirth, John 3:5-7.

 

[RandyK]

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The kingdom of God is Spiritually within all those who are Christ own by the Spiritual rebirth, John 3:5-7.

Yes, that's what I just said. Jesus was standing "among them" and indicated the Kingdom was "within them." And so, he was suggesting that he had to literally be "in them" spiritually, just as he stood among them.

This was the 1st step in the Kingdom coming to them, not that it would be fully manifested on earth yet, but that it had to start by living "in them." The next step will be at Jesus' 2nd Coming, when once again, he will be "in their midst," as well as ruling over the nations of the world.

 

[Elijah7777]

not found written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Everyone is in the book of life. Some are blotted out. Revelation 3:5 mentions that those who overcome will not be blotted out of the Book of Life, implying that removal is possible. Exodus 32:33 also states, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book,” which has led some to believe that names can be erased.

 

[RandyK]

Everyone is in the book of life. Some are blotted out. Revelation 3:5 mentions that those who overcome will not be blotted out of the Book of Life, implying that removal is possible. Exodus 32:33 also states, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book,” which has led some to believe that names can be erased.

I'm not sure?? I've asked myself this question for a long time, and don't have 100% assurance I'm right.

My current thought is that only those in covenant relationship with God have their names written in the book of life. For example, under the Law of Moses, all Israel was in covenant with God under that system, and as such, obedience to God under that system brought about the blessings of life in God. They were all initially written up as belonging in covenant with God, and written in the "book of life."

This is not to be confused with "Salvation," however, since being in covenant with God is not a secure position until one actually receives eternal life. When that point is achieved is a matter known by God.

Even those under the Christian covenant are not secure unless they've really and truly received eternal life. Can one be a "Christian" and not yet be saved? Of course.

Paul regularly encouraged "Christians" to ensure they really and truly belong to the "Saved." There is such a thing as "Nominal Christianity." We should treat all those who subscribe to Christianity as genuine Christians, whether or not they are truly "Saved" yet or not.

Just my view of it...

 

[Elijah7777]

A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years,

Everything in the Bible is literal first and symbolic second. WE only teach the literal Bible to sunday school students. They do not learn the symbolic Bible until they are old enough to hear the sermons.

There are scriptures that talk about the third day and the seventh day. The third day from Jesus and the seventh day from Adam. I believe the Bible is very exact and precise. Jesus went to Calvary to pay for Adam's sin exactly 4,000 years from when they ate the forbidden fruit. I believe Jesus was born exactly 4,000 years after Adam was born. At least according to science and history. Not everyone accepts Science. I have done all the math, but we also have Bishop Usher's book, written 500 years ago.

 

[Elijah7777]

I'm not sure?? I've asked myself this question for a long time, and don't have 100% assurance I'm right.

In Job 38:4, God asks Job, “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand.” This question is part of a larger response where God challenges Job’s understanding of creation and the universe.