Antinomianism and Christianity

[Northman]

Like most of these sorts of things, ive never heard of them til i came here. Looks like someone wouldnt be making any sort of effort to live in peace if they followed that sort of idea. I am most assuredly on board with part 2 of the definition Reba put up though.

 

[JLB]

I am anxiously waiting to hear those words "Well done good and faithful servant".

Amen to that sister!

 

[JLB]

The only unforgivable sin is denying Jesus Christ.

If we were to deny Christ and convert to Islam by confessing Allah as Lord, after we were saved, then does this rule still apply?




JLB

 

[Deborah13]

So Antinomianism kind of says "I can live however I want, even break the law, but no need to worry about earthly consequences because I'm saved by faith" Kind of like a license to sin?

Gnosticism is a form of Antinomianism. Probably the first actually, the apostles preached against it and one group is addressed by name in the NT. They literally taught one could do whatever they wanted in the flesh but their spirit would be saved. They believed that they literally did not sin only their flesh sinned and that didn't count. They lived evil lives.
When reading 1 John chapter 1, I believe that is who John was speaking to, "if you say you have not sinned, you are a liar". Then in chapter 2, he addresses believers and says 'IF' you sin you have a mediator.
They believed that they literally did not sin and therefore did not need to repent.

People today who believe that a Christian is legally 'lawless' would be believing the say type of thing.
We know that we are not called to be 'lawless', even though we are not justified by works. The Holy Spirit does not teach us 'lawlessness'.

 

[Eugene]

I am sort of messing with you.
Romans 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Is this sort of a doctrinal statement?

Technically this does not say (all) the law, but it does have the Gentiles doing things of the law. The ox is all of a sudden a bishop when they do the law though.

eddif

Dear Brother eddif, Romans Chapters One, Two, and Three deal with judgment first pronounced against the immoral man, next the moral man, and finally the religious man without Christ and concludes with Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin, and then Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Now this portion of scripture in Rom 2:14 has to do with the moral man; those without Christ thinking they are alright with God, and their judgment.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.

As a condition to Rom 2:14 it is written in Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God, and Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.

I have never known one person to live up to these standards keeping all the law except my Savior. Without Christ, they will stand before the Great White Throne one day being judged by the very One they rejected according to Paul’s gospel in Rom 2:16.

In judgment, there works to be judged are recorded, and we read in Mat 10:15 of differences in the severity of judgment. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Their destination? The lake of fire for not having their names written in the book of life.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[eddif]

Dear Brother eddif, Romans Chapters One, Two, and Three deal with judgment first pronounced against the immoral man, next the moral man, and finally the religious man without Christ and concludes with Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin, and then Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Now this portion of scripture in Rom 2:14 has to do with the moral man; those without Christ thinking they are alright with God, and their judgment.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.

As a condition to Rom 2:14 it is written in Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God, and Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.

I have never known one person to live up to these standards keeping all the law except my Savior. Without Christ, they will stand before the Great White Throne one day being judged by the very One they rejected according to Paul’s gospel in Rom 2:16.

In judgment, there works to be judged are recorded, and we read in Mat 10:15 of differences in the severity of judgment. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Their destination? The lake of fire for not having their names written in the book of life.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Romans 1 and following chapters are a presentation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:1-6
Romans 1:16
To the Jew first and also the Greek
Romans 1:17
The just live by faith

About here in Romans one it does switch to some of the warnings you mentioned.

Romans 1:18
Starts on wrath of God.

Romans 3:24
Back to redemption in Christ

Romans 3:31
Says we do not make void the law through faith.

Eugene
Just because I mention the Law, it does not mean I trust in the law for righteousness. Slow down. I believe in using the law lawfully (it may take the rest of my life to totally understand that statement). I am in the middle of Antinomianism and Legalism.

Be not righteous over much neither be a fool, but he who loves The Lord shall come forth from them both (from memory ).

In Romans the subject goes back and forth about the nature of man (old nature new reborn part). I like Romans 7:25 where one can see the flesh and mind, and work with the
Ecclesiastes 7:16-18 passage.

I am not lukewarm about this, and try with passion to understand.

eddif

 

[Eugene]

I am not lukewarm about this, and try with passion to understand.

eddif

Praise God, that is exactly the way to proceed. In John 16:13 the Holy Spirit is our tutor into all truth, and
Eph 4:15 wants us to grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

 

[eddif]

Praise God, that is exactly the way to proceed. In John 16:13 the Holy Spirit is our tutor into all truth, and
Eph 4:15 wants us to grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

To help you know where I am

Legalism: a TL is totally legalistic
1. TL
2. Christ died that law might be done
3. Law and grace are equal
4. Christ is Lord but the law still points out sin
5. TG
Graceism: a TG believes law is totally gone

A 10 point scale would be better.

I am a 4.2 on the scale (does that make me lost - LOL)

We do not need to compare ratings.

I hope to continue finding ways to help us understand the OP.

eddif

 

[follower]

there's no doctrine nor doctrinal statements that can in themselves save a person, although Yhwh might use them to direct a person to Himself in Yeshua , the true Salvation.
i.e. the people of Yhwh rejected the Messiah , in Yhwh's Perfect Plan, and thus the gentiles were allowed in for a time.
now, if the gentiles reject the Messiah, (not the irreligious gentiles, but the religious one who are called 'christian' regardless of where their heart and obedience is), no law or doctrine or grace saves them - as it is written whoever has the Son has Life, whoever does not have the Son does not have Life. (doctrine doesn't change life status).

"1 John 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not ...
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. ... American King James Version"

it follows that just as those to whom Yeshua spoke directly, so there are those today both who have the Son and those who do not have the Son, and the ones who do not have the Son reject not only the Son, but also reject those who do have the Son - the nature of men hasn't changed in the last 2000 years.

 

[Kathi]

If we were to deny Christ and convert to Islam by confessing Allah as Lord, after we were saved, then does this rule still apply?




JLB

Yes,it does.

 

[eddif]

II Corinthians 10:12
Is always a warning to consider when using a rating method.

eddif

 

[jasonc]

Do you ever break God commandments now that you are saved? Let's say you speed one mile per hour over the speedi limit and don't ask forgiveness are you lost? At what point does Jesus deny you as a part of Him?
2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh (1 Jn 5:4), the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I like ce was a bisexual male. the holy spirit didn't just magically change me. what is the command about renewing? we do that and the reason we need to what is wrong. if I lie then I know im not acting like GOD, If I don't care, then it shows me that im might not be HIS! that is what is meant by paul in galatians take heed where you stand lest thee fall. if im walking in the spirit that means I wont be sinning, and how will I know that im doing that? I wont be doing those negative commands.

 

[Eugene]

To help you know where I am

Legalism: a TL is totally legalistic
1. TL
2. Christ died that law might be done
3. Law and grace are equal
4. Christ is Lord but the law still points out sin
5. TG
Graceism: a TG believes law is totally gone

A 10 point scale would be better.

I am a 4.2 on the scale (does that make me lost - LOL)

We do not need to compare ratings.

I hope to continue finding ways to help us understand the OP.

eddif

eddif - Christ died that law might be done.
Eugene - Rom 5:6 Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:8 While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 8:4 but God does work in us, and that so that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (NOT BY US), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

eddif - 3. Law and grace are equal.
Eugene – In what manner? 2 Co 3:7 The law is: the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones . .
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions.
Gal 3:24 . . the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.
The law is in effect for its purpose of showing the sinner they need a Savior, but Galatians 3::25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (The law)
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Works of the law and not works of righteousness are not the same. For instance the bride has made herself ready.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Righteous acts)
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all.

Ephesians 2:8, 9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.)
Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[jasonc]

some are missing the point. and we wonder why messianic jews have a hard time with the Christians here. the law is a way to do two things. see Christ in it. I do all the time, and also to learn and improve where you fail god in it. it cant cleanse you and never was meant to. god did that. and still does. how can I know what sin is if the bible doesn't spell it out? the tanach was the only bible in pauls day. that is what the bereans used to see if paul was correct.

note: im not saying that one follows the torah to be saved, but being saved one will do things that are spiritually found in the torah. ie I wont break those commands and when I do, I will repent.

 

[Eugene]

I like ce was a bisexual male. the holy spirit didn't just magically change me. what is the command about renewing? we do that and the reason we need to what is wrong. if I lie then I know im not acting like GOD, If I don't care, then it shows me that im might not be HIS! that is what is meant by paul in galatians take heed where you stand lest thee fall. if im walking in the spirit that means I wont be sinning, and how will I know that im doing that? I wont be doing those negative commands.

Hi Brother jasonc. I know from experience the battle between grace and the law having come from Catholicism, but though we continue to sin in the flesh, in Christ our Savior our new nature cannot sin 1 Jn 5:18, and God sees us in Christ; not the flesh. I know you are saved, I know it is God, and Jesus holding you, and the Holy Spirit that has sealed you. If you can get any more saved than that I don't know what it would be. Don't allow Satan to defeat you in thinking that there is some form of condemnation for those in Jesus. Rom 8:1.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Eugene]

some are missing the point. and we wonder why messianic jews have a hard time with the Christians here. the law is a way to do two things. see Christ in it. I do all the time, and also to learn and improve where you fail god in it. it cant cleanse you and never was meant to. god did that. and still does. how can I know what sin is if the bible doesn't spell it out? the tanach was the only bible in pauls day. that is what the bereans used to see if paul was correct.

note: im not saying that one follows the torah to be saved, but being saved one will do things that are spiritually found in the torah. ie I wont break those commands and when I do, I will repent.

After the law has done its job, we are no longer subject to it regardless how men cling to it instead of the cross.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[eddif]

eddif - Christ died that law might be done.
Eugene - Rom 5:6 Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:8 While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 8:4 but God does work in us, and that so that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (NOT BY US), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

eddif - 3. Law and grace are equal.
Eugene – In what manner? 2 Co 3:7 The law is: the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones . .
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions.
Gal 3:24 . . the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.
The law is in effect for its purpose of showing the sinner they need a Savior, but Galatians 3::25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (The law)
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Works of the law and not works of righteousness are not the same. For instance the bride has made herself ready.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Righteous acts)
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all.

Ephesians 2:8, 9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.)
Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

This is a hoot.
The numbers are not intended to be actually read as being correct. Error is in some of the numbers. It was only intended as am I closer to the law or grace. I put the errors in there on purpose (the book of Job is full of errors in doctrine - according to the last chapters). Every thing the friends said was wrong.

I started out with ( I am kind of messing with you). You are missing the LOL hanging in the conversation with you. I guess I am usually serious and you just missed the direction I was going with you.

Now I still do not know how to approach you.

eddif

 

[Eugene]

This is a hoot.
The numbers are not intended to be actually read as being correct. Error is in some of the numbers. It was only intended as am I closer to the law or grace. I put the errors in there on purpose (the book of Job is full of errors in doctrine - according to the last chapters). Every thing the friends said was wrong.

I started out with ( I am kind of messing with you). You are missing the LOL hanging in the conversation with you. I guess I am usually serious and you just missed the direction I was going with you.

Now I still do not know how to approach you.

eddif

Brother, hopefully I can take whatever direction you want to travel, and just really want to satisfy your questions. I truthfully do not attempt to argue, and hopefully presents ideas that will edify you and others. If I miss a point you're attempting to make,ask it again. Thanks.

 

[eddif]

some are missing the point. and we wonder why messianic jews have a hard time with the Christians here. the law is a way to do two things. see Christ in it. I do all the time, and also to learn and improve where you fail god in it. it cant cleanse you and never was meant to. god did that. and still does. how can I know what sin is if the bible doesn't spell it out? the tanach was the only bible in pauls day. that is what the bereans used to see if paul was correct.

note: im not saying that one follows the torah to be saved, but being saved one will do things that are spiritually found in the torah. ie I wont break those commands and when I do, I will repent.

Right now I think almost everyone on this thread thinks the other person is saying something totally different from what they are trying to say.

I seek to use the law lawfully :
To show the need of repentance
To use symbols in the law to point to the reality of Jesus Christ and his work.
To show that Ruach is needed and available.

Your comments are on the Jewish end
My comments are on the Gentile end

There is no wall between us. We both are just tripping over the rubble from the wall Jesus broke down.

eddif

 

[jasonc]

Right now I think almost everyone on this thread thinks the other person is saying something totally different from what they are trying to say.

I seek to use the law lawfully :
To show the need of repentance
To use symbols in the law to point to the reality of Jesus Christ and his work.
To show that Ruach is needed and available.

Your comments are on the Jewish end
My comments are on the Gentile end

There is no wall between us. We both are just tripping over the rubble from the wall Jesus broke down.

eddif

Ruach Kadosh, if you mean Holy Spirit.