Antinomianism and Christianity

[jasonc]

After the law has done its job, we are no longer subject to it regardless how men cling to it instead of the cross.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

then I don't need to read my bible? after all I already knew as a jw, the list of sins are the same. the books the same? see my point? there is a reason to need to know what the torah says and the rest as well. by reading the law doesn't mean im doing it to be saved. but to learn and also to know. I think you would have a hard time with this in the the apostle paul given the time frame of when he said all scripture is inspired the tanach was the scripture.

 

[eddif]

Brother, hopefully I can take whatever direction you want to travel, and just really want to satisfy your questions. I truthfully do not attempt to argue, and hopefully presents ideas that will edify you and others. If I miss a point you're attempting to make,ask it again. Thanks.

I think all this is bringing out direction.
The hoot I mentioned is a good hoot as we clarify our comments into line.

Do you try to see what using the law lawfully means. If no I will understand. The stances are usually all law or no law. That is not to say they don't give examples that show they really do understand. I am trying to get using the law lawfully in our conversation. That Reba possibly gave an allowed direction towards in post 2 (several posts headed toward the middle ground).

I Timothy 1:8
Is one place where the law is supported in the NT. Right now there is little discussion on what lawfully means. jasonc being a possible exception (not that he sees it my way , but that might be good).

Edit: I Timothy 1:8 not 5:8 as first listed (changed in text)

eddif

 

[jasonc]

I view the torah as being both for the saved Hebrew and the gentile. we fulfill the important and unchanging parts of the torah when we allow Christ to shine. ie
1) don't lie
2) don't steal
3) don't covet
4) don't commit adultery
5) don't take the Name of God in vain
6) we find a day to rest and worship

simplicity is the key. I listed a part of the torah where sins that were always big sins prior to the mount horeb experience. save the shabat implications that is there for a reason as we rest in jesus.

 

[Eugene]

then I don't need to read my bible? after all I already knew as a jw, the list of sins are the same. the books the same? see my point? there is a reason to need to know what the torah says and the rest as well. by reading the law doesn't mean im doing it to be saved. but to learn and also to know. I think you would have a hard time with this in the the apostle paul given the time frame of when he said all scripture is inspired the tanach was the scripture.

If you think the law is still needed in your life to bring you to Christ, I would should do so if for nothing else conscience sake. I would ask if you didn't read your bible, what you think you're to be judged by? Is it the law or if your name is in the book of life which will not be erased in no wise? In fact you are presently before the judgment seat of our Lord's eyes as He walks among the candlesticks.

 

[Eugene]

I think all this is bringing out direction.
The hoot I mentioned is a good hoot as we clarify our comments into line.

Do you try to see what using the law lawfully means. If no I will understand. The stances are usually all law or no law. That is not to say they don't give examples that show they really do understand. I am trying to get using the law lawfully in our conversation. That Reba possibly gave an allowed direction towards in post 2 (several posts headed toward the middle ground).

I Timothy 1:8
Is one place where the law is supported in the NT. Right now there is little discussion on what lawfully means. jasonc being a possible exception (not that he sees it my way , but that might be good).

Edit: I Timothy 1:8 not 5:8 as first listed (changed in text)

eddif

I have no problem giving my understanding of using the law lawfully, and that is for the purpose it was given

1 Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[jasonc]

If you think the law is still needed in your life to bring you to Christ, I would should do so if for nothing else conscience sake. I would ask if you didn't read your bible, what you think you're to be judged by? Is it the law or if your name is in the book of life which will not be erased in no wise? In fact you are presently before the judgment seat of our Lord's eyes as He walks among the candlesticks.

missing the point. when Christians were first told of the gospel. what were they do read? the torah, they weren under but they had to know what life to live by, its all there buddy, step over and outside to the real torah, and see the intent of it, what does the word torah mean? you do realize that in Hebrew when paul said the law, it was the torah, that means it all genesis to deuteromony. so why would you just assume it was only that the function of the law is to do what teach, im in sin, whom to go to? the YHWH, what does he do? forgive If I ask.

if you think that im a legalist im not. but im for a balance of truth and grace. one has to know one is sin. paul quoted the torah. for what is the command with a promise is stated by him in ephasians. that is the first commandment after pleasing god to doing what god has us to do for man, simply obedience. a parent is the first impression of God to a child. hmmm. notice its a positive, then the torah goes into negatives.

 

[eddif]

I have no problem giving my understanding of using the law lawfully, and that is for the purpose it was given

1 Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I think I see lawless and disobedient today, and some are inside the church. Church discipline works by compassion or fear (according to the persons needs!).

Very few say Christ is not salvation, but some do. Their examples show they must trust in works. One extreme Deborah13 presents.

eddif

 

[jasonc]

im NOT saying by doing the torah its for my righteous but rather that if im a saved person I shall be lining up with the important parts of the torah. yes there are levels of predencence in the torah. ie if its the shabat and I need to circumcise my man child.then I shall break shabat if I must travel to do that.

 

[Eugene]

I view the torah as being both for the saved Hebrew and the gentile. we fulfill the important and unchanging parts of the torah when we allow Christ to shine. ie
1) don't lie
2) don't steal
3) don't covet
4) don't commit adultery
5) don't take the Name of God in vain
6) we find a day to rest and worship

simplicity is the key. I listed a part of the torah where sins that were always big sins prior to the mount horeb experience. save the shabat implications that is there for a reason as we rest in jesus.

Brother @jasons, you’re using terms such as Torah and YHWH instead of common vernacular such as Law, LORD, Jehovah, Jesus, or God, and if I understand the purpose, it boils down to honoring God in the communal form of worship. I’ll attempt to also include your terms for understanding.

Again it is simple to me as I am a simple thinking man, and First the law is said to have been given for a purpose and that was because of sin as we read in Galatians 3:19, Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed (Jesus – YHWH) should come.

Second is the law’s (Torah’s) purpose to bring them (Who? The Jews) to Christ (YHWH if you wish). Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us (Who? – the Jews) unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith, and Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we (The Jews) were kept under the law (Torah), shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

I’ll leave at this point lest we get too many ideas floating here.

 

[eddif]

Romans 11:25
Blindness of the Jews exists till the fullness of the Gentiles is come in.

What is that fullness? If Gentiles are led into the law as a way of righteousness then they are not full in their understanding yet. I see Gentiles forsake the church of The Lord Jesus Christ and join messianic Jewish congregations. Congregations that seem to believe righteousness is in the empowered law. As long as Gentiles do not understand what is going on; blindness is on everyone. Gentiles must have a great God type love for the Jewish people. A love that with compassion can show Jews that the law does not convey righteousness (but to do that Gentiles must know how to use the law lawfully). A God type love that can also use fear to turn those who depend on the law for righteousness (but it must be done with the fruit of the spirit -- which I doubt I have much of). Right now the law is just viewed as a cast off thing that is a bunch of trouble. Gentiles must come to the place that compassion drives them into stirring up jealousy in the Jewish brothers. Brothers for which Christ died. The law purpose must be understood and declared good as a transitional thing. An oxen must be understood as a bishop (the concept of law written on hearts and minds).

Paul had to spend time with the Gentiles. Now the Gentiles are here, but do we have enough maturity to come to the fullness that will show Christ to the Jews. Can we show Christ Jesus with compassion and fear. Can we complete the work that is assigned that Gentiles lift up Jesus and not ourselves.

eddif can not do this. Holy Spirit can.

 

[follower]

no, the fullness is most likely the end of gentiles being saved, or drawing to a close, or something similar, since the gentiles are increasingly departing from/falling away from/having nothing to do with faith in Yeshua.(as the antichrist is increasing on earth, being 'birthed' so to speak - more and more disclosed/loosed/present... ...

According to a Jew, (speaking for many he said),
most of the gentiles don't or can't 'convert' the Jews .... at least not most of them. a few gentiles have converted some Jews. those few gentiles who , like Paul, know the Power of the Spirit of Yhwh, and who know and understand His Word, Scripture.
the Jew, who was saved, who survived much torture at the hands of man, who wrote the book "tortured for Christ", and a few other books, (Wurmbrand, Richard) pointed out in one of his books that he himself and multitudes of other Jews would not be converted , could not be, by most christians, because they had so little understanding of Scripture. when a christian who knew both Scripture and the Power of Yhwh introduced him to the truth, and to the true love and person of Yeshua, then he believed and was converted and was immersed in Yeshua's Name.

 

[Eugene]

Romans 11:25
Blindness of the Jews exists till the fullness of the Gentiles is come in.

What is that fullness? If Gentiles are led into the law as a way of righteousness then they are not full in their understanding yet. I see Gentiles forsake the church of The Lord Jesus Christ and join messianic Jewish congregations. Congregations that seem to believe righteousness is in the empowered law. As long as Gentiles do not understand what is going on; blindness is on everyone. Gentiles must have a great God type love for the Jewish people. A love that with compassion can show Jews that the law does not convey righteousness (but to do that Gentiles must know how to use the law lawfully). A God type love that can also use fear to turn those who depend on the law for righteousness (but it must be done with the fruit of the spirit -- which I doubt I have much of). Right now the law is just viewed as a cast off thing that is a bunch of trouble. Gentiles must come to the place that compassion drives them into stirring up jealousy in the Jewish brothers. Brothers for which Christ died. The law purpose must be understood and declared good as a transitional thing. An oxen must be understood as a bishop (the concept of law written on hearts and minds).

Paul had to spend time with the Gentiles. Now the Gentiles are here, but do we have enough maturity to come to the fullness that will show Christ to the Jews. Can we show Christ Jesus with compassion and fear. Can we complete the work that is assigned that Gentiles lift up Jesus and not ourselves.

eddif can not do this. Holy Spirit can.

The following excerpt is from the study of Romans given by Grace & Glory.

"Then the Apostle lets us into a secret, "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" - Rom 11:25. This verse is very little understood, though it appears so simple. The meaning is that there is a remnant from Jews and Gentiles gathered in this age - the Body of Christ, or the Church, as they are called. When that determined number is made up, then Israel's blindness as a nation will begin to be lifted. The veil over their eyes will be taken away. All nations will share in their blessings. Only a few, comparatively speaking, are taken out from among them for the Name of Christ; but when the nation, Israel, will be the light of the world, then as the prophet assures them, "The Gentiles shall come to thy light, and
kings to the brightness of thy rising" - Isaiah 60:3. The nation is still "beloved for the fathers' sakes" - 11:28. "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" - 11:26 - because God made a covenant to this effect with Abraham, and confirmed it to Isaac and Jacob. "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" - 11:29. "Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee - Isaiah 49:15"

 

[eddif]

Ok .
Rest of the team report in.
Comments.
Questions?

Offhandedly I can think of no minimized number of Gentiles.
Revelation 7:9 sounds like a lot of folks.

This is right after the 12000 from each tribe.

eddif