Anyone read books by John Shelby Spong?

[Solo]

Hey Vic,
You better be careful, you'll be flagged as a fundy!

If we be talking about fundamental, as in the basics or rudimentary, I'm there.

If we are talking about Phelps-like fundamentalism... :o :o

Phelps is not a fundamentalist. Phelps is a different kind of fellow who has decided to preach an anti-gay gospel instead of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Besides that, he is probably a swell fellow. :

PS Fred Phelps began a Primitive Baptist Church in Topeka, KS and it is attended mostly of family members. He doesn't like my denomination as represented by this quote,

"Any church that allows fags to be members in good standing is a fag church... Any church that ordains fags is a fag church...Any church that marries fags is a fag church...Churches...like the Southern Baptists and Assembly of God churches are as much to blame as the out of the closet fag churches...Why? Because they have created an atmosphere in this world where people believe the lie that God loves everybody. This soul-damning lie is the reason that fags are so out-spoken today."

-- "Fag Churches," WBC "Godhatesfags.com" Web site

 

[Vic C.]

Hey, I attend a SBC church too, ys know.

Fred is a flake, IMHO. :-?

 

[Solo]

Hey, I attend a SBC church too, ys know.

Fred is a flake, IMHO. :-?

I know, and I think Fred is a flake also, IMAHO.

 

[SputnikBoy]

What a joke!!

I would not waste $ 0.01 on anything "Bishop" Spong has written.

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/spong01.html
http://www.tektonics.org/qt/spong02.html
http://www.canonlaw.org/article_spong.htm

Hey Gary! 8-)

I'm from New Jersey. He was Bishop in Newark, NJ. I am almost ashamed to admit that.

Soma and Sputnik, please do some more investigative research on this man. His "brand" of Christianity is "Anti". It's anti-christ-like and anti-Biblical. With his style of Christianity seeping into the whole of Christianity, it won't be long before apostasy is so obvious in the churches... that is unless you are deaf, dumb and blind.

Sorry if I have offended anyone but... you hit a sore spot with me when I see this man and his "heady" type of teaching being condomed. :o

"... having itching ears..."

I don't know that you've offended anyone, Vic. All I know of the man is from the 45 minute video tape that I have. And, I really don't appreciate being hauled over the coals by Solo simply because I find JSS to be most interesting on this tape. I should not be treated so merely because I HAVE - and openly state - an opinion. Whether or not I SHOULD appreciate the man is immaterial to me. I STILL like this particular video.

I also heard on the grapevine during a visit to Australia several years earlier that Bishop Spong believed Paul to have been a homosexual. This had something to do with Paul stating that the good he tries to do he cannot . . .and so on. I was fairly new to Christianity at the time and this statement meant nothing to me. And, since I didn't know Paul personally, unlike Solo, it would seem, I have no idea if Paul was gay or not. Quite frankly, I don't care one way or the other. It's really none of my business.

When I say that I'm my own man I mean that my thoughts and opinions are still my own. I appreciate that, even with our eroding freedoms today, we ARE still allowed the freedom to think for ourselves for a while longer anyway. Not for some Christians, however, who find 'thinking for oneself a sin in and of itself. Christianity and mind-control are a bad mix.

 

[Solo]

Not for some Christians, however, who find 'thinking for oneself a sin in and of itself. Christianity and mind-control are a bad mix. [/color]

It depends on whether you are born again or not, and whether your flesh is in control of your mind, or whether the born of God spirit is in control of your mind.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:2

 

[Gary]

...I also heard on the grapevine during a visit to Australia several years earlier that Bishop Spong believed Paul to have been a homosexual. This had something to do with Paul stating that the good he tries to do he cannot . . .and so on. I was fairly new to Christianity at the time and this statement meant nothing to me. And, since I didn't know Paul personally, unlike Solo, it would seem, I have no idea if Paul was gay or not. Quite frankly, I don't care one way or the other. It's really none of my business.

Let us consider what Paul had to say about the subject:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:24-27 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€â€who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Hardly the words of a homosexual man.

So who would you believe? Paul or "Bishop" Spong? Remember, "Bishop" Spong does not even consider the Bible to be the Word of God.

 

[Gary]

Rescuing the Gospel from Bishop Spong

Spong reveals to us the real message of the Bible in his best selling book, Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism. For those who are curious about how a thoroughly postmodern bishop might view the Bible, this is a fascinating read. Bishop Spong's depiction of Christianity also gives us insight into the kind of theology that motivates gay rights activists, radical feminists, and Marxists to use the Bible in support of their various movements. For, according to Bishop Spong, the gospel of Christ is found in three words: love, life, and being. This gospel can be reduced to the idea that tolerance is the only absolute because humanity itself is divine, without need of redemption, or even much instruction.

Bishop Spong makes it quite clear that the words of the Bible are not the words of God. The bulk of Spong's book attempts to separate the Bible from any notion of truth, except where the Bishop finds a saying or thought helpful to his gospel of tolerance. Although the Bible is not propositional truth, the Bishop claims to possess truth on many subjects, things that are true for all people everywhere. While denying truth and special revelation, he claims to have found universal truth in the Bible just the same. How does he accomplish this? By reading behind, between, and underneath the words. Only this way, he claims, can one discover what the writers really meant and what truth is relevant for all humanity.

Fortunately, Spong admits that his attack on the Scriptures contains nothing new. Most of it is the result of 19th century Enlightenment scholarship and rooted in the anti-supernaturalism of that age, in which miracles, prophecy, and virtually any form of God's supernatural interaction or intervention in the world was denied. What Spong is attempting to do is come up with a new Christianity loosely tied to the ancient text that founded orthodox belief. He has the right to do so, but this new gospel is not the good news given to us through the prophets and apostles by the God of the Bible.

A Sex Driven Gospel

Bishop Spong readily admits that one of the major factors that shapes his view of Scripture is its teaching on human sexuality. He begins his book with a preamble titled "Sex Drove Me to the Bible." Spong finds that the Bible's attitude on sex and gender is embarrassingly out of step with the times. What it says about everything from premarital living arrangements to homosexuality, according to Spong, is narrow-minded, misogynic, homophobic, and worst of all, pre-scientific. In contrast, Spong argues that God wants us to experience love, life, and to be all that we can be, to really be ourselves. Since he denies any notion of original sin, whatever we desire becomes a good thing as long as it allows everybody to do their thing. Although he admits that the Bible is full of statements about sexual virtue, including prohibitions against premarital sex, adultery, and homosexuality, the authors of the Bible were hopelessly uninformed, lacking the benefits of modern research. One author in particular, the Apostle Paul, may have been driven by an inner struggle with his sexual identity.

According to Spong, Paul was a guilt-ridden homosexual. He claims that Paul's pre-conversion hostility towards Christians came from religious fundamentalism and self-loathing. These are the same emotions that cause modern Christians to be so angry about sexual sin today. However, salvation in Christ supposedly brought Paul peace with who he was and thus he was empowered to share this new gospel of freedom with the world. How does Bishop Spong know all this? He doesn't get it from reading the biblical text. As Spong bravely declares, "If a religious system requires that a literal Bible be embraced, I must walk away from that system." Spong writes, "So enter with me into the realm of speculation as we probe the life of Paul, using his words not as literal objects but as doorways into his psyche, where alone truth that changes life can be processed."

In other words, we are to ignore what Paul actually wrote and accept what the Bishop speculates.

:roll: :roll:

What a joke! New Age Fundies love it. Give them Gandhi, Buddha and Spong. Smoke a joint on a mountain, pop a few buttons; love everyone.

Read more: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/spong.html

:bday: :bday:

 

[Vic C.]

Please read...

So who would you believe? Paul or "Bishop" Spong? Remember, "Bishop" Spong does not even consider the Bible to be the Word of God.

That's a good point Gary. I too have read where he says this. Statements like that and others he has made hold water like a colander. 8-)

Spong, a well-known intellectual and author, has infuriated conservative Christians by challenging some of the fundamentals of the faith. He has questioned the virgin birth and even the resurrection.

http://copies.anglicansonline.org/nj.com/9e96aa.html

From Episcopalian Bishop to Cybersex Columnist
Bishop John Spong goes to work for Museum of Sex's Web site.
2000

By Cheryl Heckler-Feltz in New York | posted 5/26/00
John Shelby Spong, the retired Episcopal (Anglican) bishop whose name has become synonymous with "controversy" because of his radical views, is to write a column on religion and sexuality for a new Web siteâ€â€theposition.comâ€â€which is now under construction and due to be launched June 5.

Bishop Spong, whom one New York tabloid newspaper has already dubbed "the Bishop of Cybersex," will argue in his first column that the Ten Commandments were written, in part at least, to sexually repress women....

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/121/54.0.html

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

As most of you know by now my story on John Spong writing a sex column for an online cybersex magazine called Position.Com has excited some interest, even and including a threatened lawsuit. Some of you did not believe the story was true and others thought I was writing satire. No such luck.

Right after I wrote the piece and blasted it out to the world I got a nasty
E-mail from the new editor of this cybersex magazine Mr.Heidenry threatening a lawsuit, at the same time assuring me he was "a practicing Episcopalian and married father of four." As the one time editor of Penthouse magazine, now going online with sex, one wonders how he manages to mix porn with the Prayer Book, and then convince his kids that this is good and right in the eyes of God, but I suppose if Spong can manage to deny all the essentials of Christianity and still stay a bishop, and draw a fat pension, then anything is possible.

That one of his favorite disciples, Louie Crew, calls himself Queen Lutibelle and manages to obtain an honorary doctorate from Episcopal Divinity School for his services to the Episcopal Church promoting homosexuality, should probably be the clincher. All we need is the first Lesbitransgay to run for bishop and we can sign, seal and deliver the Episcopal Church over to Satan. The Screwtape Letters will have to be reprinted. The demand will be enormous.....

http://listserv.episcopalian.org/script ... &H=1&P=937

 

[Soma-Sight]

What a joke! New Age Fundies love it. Give them Gandhi, Buddha and Spong. Smoke a joint on a mountain, pop a few buttons; love everyone.

Are you speaking from experience?

 

[Gary]

Yes, I am speaking from experience. I know several ex-New Age Fundies who have now been born again and have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. They have given up their drugging and joint smoking. They now know that the Bible is the Word of God and they evaluate everything else against that truth. One couple came to accept our Lord as their Saviour. First her, then her boyfriend. They were living together. The convicting of the Holy Spirit led them to totally rethink their lifestyle. They are now married and witness with great power.

 

[SputnikBoy]

...I also heard on the grapevine during a visit to Australia several years earlier that Bishop Spong believed Paul to have been a homosexual. This had something to do with Paul stating that the good he tries to do he cannot . . .and so on. I was fairly new to Christianity at the time and this statement meant nothing to me. And, since I didn't know Paul personally, unlike Solo, it would seem, I have no idea if Paul was gay or not. Quite frankly, I don't care one way or the other. It's really none of my business.

Let us consider what Paul had to say about the subject:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:24-27 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€â€who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Hardly the words of a homosexual man.

So who would you believe? Paul or "Bishop" Spong? Remember, "Bishop" Spong does not even consider the Bible to be the Word of God.

While I really don't want to get drawn into a 'was Paul gay?' debate, I DO need to make the point that Paul was a man who sinned ...period. While he was being made 'more perfect', if you like, through an indwelling of Jesus in his life, there is no doubt that he was still very much a sinner. He spoke against ALL kinds of sins. But, as long as he was a sinner, he must not have been 'practicing what he preached' at all times ...now must he? This stands to reason. Feasibly, he could have been guilty of practicing the sins he spoke against ...just as we ourselves might do so at times . . .except for Solo, of course. :

So many of you quote Paul as if he was the equivalent (sinless) of Jesus. He wasn't. He was just like you and me. Therefore, you can quote me if you like.

 

[Gary]

So many of you quote Paul as if he was the equivalent (sinless) of Jesus. He wasn't. He was just like you and me. Therefore, you can quote me if you like.

Well, I would rather quote Paul than "Bishop" Spong... Paul's words in the New Testament are considered to be the Word of God. Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

P.S. I have quoted you... Hopefully you will now see the difference.

I study Paul's words (and the whole Bible). I base my life and my thinking on what I learn from the Bible. However, I place less than $0.01 value and 0.01 sec worth on Spong's words.

 

[bbas 64]

Gopod Day, All

Spong was on the White Horse in with Horton discussing this book:

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/The_White_Horse_Inn/archives.asp?bcd=10/2/2005

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Steve]

The Sins of Scripture : Exposing the Bible's Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love (Hardcover)

This is a very good book for people quesioning the validity of the modern day fundamentalist regime as it relates to the Word of God.

Anyone hear of this guy or this book?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006076 ... oding=UTF8

Yes, I have heard of Spong. :roll: The former Episcopal Bishop of New Jersey. An obvious apostate, and has been for years. People I know who know him say he isn't a very nice person, either, and was extremely hard on his priests who were conservative/believers. I do not read his garbage. I would want to read things that will bolster and encourage my faith, not tear it down.'d have to read his books while wearing a clothespin on my nose. :smt078

 

[Solo]

Gopod Day, All

Spong was on the White Horse in with Horton discussing this book:

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/The_White_Horse_Inn/archives.asp?bcd=10/2/2005

Peace to u,

Bill

Thanks for the link. Listening to the interview allowed me to see that Sponge Bob is closer to being a Christian than Spong is, but I can see why Soma-Sight would like him. :

 

[SputnikBoy]

So many of you quote Paul as if he was the equivalent (sinless) of Jesus. He wasn't. He was just like you and me. Therefore, you can quote me if you like.

Well, I would rather quote Paul than "Bishop" Spong... Paul's words in the New Testament are considered to be the Word of God. Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

P.S. I have quoted you... Hopefully you will now see the difference.

I study Paul's words (and the whole Bible). I base my life and my thinking on what I learn from the Bible. However, I place less than $0.01 value and 0.01 sec worth on Spong's words.

Yes, of course the Bible is first and foremost. I do have a problem, however, with some of Paul's 'inspired words'. What we seem to have is a man inspired by the Holy Spirit but also very much a practicing sinner ...hmmm. Is that possible? By the way, did Paul or anyone else on his behalf ever say that he spoke as inspired by the Holy Spirit? Or, do we simply assume that the inclusion of his scriptures in the NT are evidence enough?

Incidentally, I'm not a supporter of J.S.Spong. I know so little about the man. I've come to the conclusion, however, that many Christians are so off-base themselves that they are possibly no better than those who they might criticise. Not you, Gary, of course!

 

[Solo]

So many of you quote Paul as if he was the equivalent (sinless) of Jesus. He wasn't. He was just like you and me. Therefore, you can quote me if you like.

Well, I would rather quote Paul than "Bishop" Spong... Paul's words in the New Testament are considered to be the Word of God. Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

P.S. I have quoted you... Hopefully you will now see the difference.

I study Paul's words (and the whole Bible). I base my life and my thinking on what I learn from the Bible. However, I place less than $0.01 value and 0.01 sec worth on Spong's words.

Yes, of course the Bible is first and foremost. I do have a problem, however, with some of Paul's 'inspired words'. What we seem to have is a man inspired by the Holy Spirit but also very much a practicing sinner ...hmmm. Is that possible? By the way, did Paul or anyone else on his behalf ever say that he spoke as inspired by the Holy Spirit? Or, do we simply assume that the inclusion of his scriptures in the NT are evidence enough?

Incidentally, I'm not a supporter of J.S.Spong. I know so little about the man. I've come to the conclusion, however, that many Christians are so off-base themselves that they are possibly no better than those who they might criticise. Not you, Gary, of course!

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. 2 Peter 3:11-18

 

[destiny]

Yes, of course the Bible is first and foremost. I do have a problem, however, with some of Paul's 'inspired words'. What we seem to have is a man inspired by the Holy Spirit but also very much a practicing sinner

Paul was born again.
To be born again is to be transformed by the power of God, you no longer live according to the flesh but according to the spirit.
You no longer make sin a practice, but thats not saying you never sin at all.
Mt 9:16,17-NO MAN PUTTETH A PIECE OF "NEW" CLOTH UNTO AN "OLD GARMENT," FOR THAT WHICH IS PUT IN TO FILL IT UP TAKETH FROM THE GARMENT, AND THE RENT IS MADE WORSE. NEITHER DO MEN PUT "NEW" WINE INTO OLD BOTTLES: ELSE THE BOTTLES BREAK, AND THE WINE RUNNETH OUT, AND THE BOTTLES PERISH: BUT THEY PUT NEW WINE INTO NEW BOTTLES, AND BOTH ARE PRESERVED. Lk 5:39-NO MAN ALSO HAVING DRUNK OLD WINE, STRAIGHTWAY DESIRETH NEW: FOR HE SAITH, THE OLD IS BETTER.
God does not put the Holy Spirit into a person that is still living in sin. They must repent, else the rent is made worse. One does not put the Holy Spirit into someone who is an old bottle, living in their old ways and has not repented, else the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish. But the Holy Spirit is put into new bottles, that is, a sinner who has repented, and both are preserved. No man having drunk of the pleasures of sin, straightway desires new ways, (God’s ways), for he saith the old is better. Know this, WITHOUT HOLINESS, NO ONE WILL SEE THE LORD.
You must be born-again. You must be converted. You must become as a little child before Almighty God, and have the attitude, "Not my will, but Thine be done."

Paul was converted and filled with the delivering power of God, no perverse spirit could reside in him!
You have to understand God's Power, Holiness, and the supernatural occurance of being born again to understand what kind of man Paul was.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Yes, I am speaking from experience.

lol....

I asked if you ever attended a Native American peyote ceremony which you HAVE NOT....

 

[Soma-Sight]

Suffice to say it looks like Spong is not a popular favorite in old 123 forums.... :