Anyone read books by John Shelby Spong?

[Soma-Sight]

48 of 59 people found the following review helpful:

A Few Quotes, April 13, 2002
Reviewer: Bruce Aguilar (Hollywood, CA) - See all my reviews

- My purpose in this volume is first to resuce the Bible from the exclusive hands of those who demand that it be literal truth and second to open that sacred story to levels of insight and beauty that, in my experience, literalism has never produced.
- I honor fundamentalism's demand that the Bible be taken seriously.

- To traffic in guilt as the church has done, to take the beauty and life-giving quality of sexual love and distort it with layer after layer of sexual guilt is simply no longer defensible, if it ever was.

- When the love of God is contained inside human barriers, it dies. It ceases to be the demanding, searing, opening love of God. It has become instead the perfume of human respectability, sprinkled on the cesspools of human negativity.

- Religion almost inevitably tries to take our anxiety away from us by claiming that which religion can never deliver - absolute certainty.

These are just a few of the many passages I highlighted when reading this volume. A book that I"m sure to read again and again for a different point of view, one that talks about the Bible not as a devinely inspired, unchanging thing, but as a tome that was written by men of their time trying to convey the deep meaning of the life altering experiences they encountered. A must read for it's measured, thoughtful, direct and stance.

Since reading this book two weeks agao I've been wondering why I hold certain beliefs, pondering new meanings and finding new insights. In short Spong has done something no other Priest or theologian has done for me in a LONG time - he's got me thinking about the Bible and my relation to it on a daily basis.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060675187/sr=8-1/qid=1143588686/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-6602660-8858256?%5Fencoding=UTF8

 

[Vic C.]

Bad link. Try this:

click --> Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism : A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture.

 

[Steve]

Suffice to say it looks like Spong is not a popular favorite in old 123 forums.... :

I can't see where he'd be a popular favourite on ANYBODY'S forums! :smt118

 

[Soma-Sight]

I can't see where he'd be a popular favourite on ANYBODY'S forums!

Well maybe it could be popular in fourms that....

1. Respect the earth and the environment and take seriously the believers charge to be a good steward.
2. Those that dont blame the Jews exclusively for Christs death.
3. People tired of Fundamentalist rhetoric of "our creed way or the hell highway".
4. People that respect womens rights.
5. Gay believers who are no better and no worse than straight believers.
6. People questioning the "Pauliantiy" of today verses the teachings of a Compassionate Christ.
7. People who adhere to "Deed over Creed".

Those are the types of people that respect this mans work.

 

[Solo]

48 of 59 people found the following review helpful:


- My purpose in this volume is first to resuce the Bible from the exclusive hands of those who demand that it be literal truth and second to open that sacred story to levels of insight and beauty that, in my experience, literalism has never produced.
- I honor fundamentalism's demand that the Bible be taken seriously.

- To traffic in guilt as the church has done, to take the beauty and life-giving quality of sexual love and distort it with layer after layer of sexual guilt is simply no longer defensible, if it ever was.

- When the love of God is contained inside human barriers, it dies. It ceases to be the demanding, searing, opening love of God. It has become instead the perfume of human respectability, sprinkled on the cesspools of human negativity.

- Religion almost inevitably tries to take our anxiety away from us by claiming that which religion can never deliver - absolute certainty.

These are just a few of the many passages I highlighted when reading this volume. A book that I"m sure to read again and again for a different point of view, one that talks about the Bible not as a devinely inspired, unchanging thing, but as a tome that was written by men of their time trying to convey the deep meaning of the life altering experiences they encountered. A must read for it's measured, thoughtful, direct and stance.

Since reading this book two weeks agao I've been wondering why I hold certain beliefs, pondering new meanings and finding new insights. In short Spong has done something no other Priest or theologian has done for me in a LONG time - he's got me thinking about the Bible and my relation to it on a daily basis.

If I can take the liberty, let me share with the forum audience what this fellow was truly saying:

48 of 59 people found the following review helpful:

A Few Quotes, April 13, 2002
Reviewer: Bruce Aguilar (Hollywood, CA) - See all my reviews

- My purpose in this volume is first to rewrite the meaning of the literalness of the Bible so that the fundamentalists can be painted in a bad way and second to open that sacred story so that it aligns with my beliefs, regardless of what God's truth is to levels of insight and beauty that, in my own personal opinion, literalism has never produced for me.

- I honor fundamentalism's demand that the Bible be taken seriously but I am convinced that they are completely wrong as liberalism has the ability to think in the abstract as God intended.

- To traffic in guilt as the church has done, to take the beauty and life-giving quality of sexual love and distort it with layer after layer of sexual guilt is simply no longer defensible, if it ever was.All people should be able to experience to pleasure of their flesh in whatever fashion they determine is good for them, regardless of what God thinks or says.

- When the love of God is contained inside human barriers, it dies. [Everyone should know that God's love is not powerful enough to work within the human experience.It ceases to be the demanding, searing, opening love of God. It has become instead the perfume of human respectability, sprinkled on the cesspools of human negativity.The truth of God surely wouldn't degrade the flesh and the desires of the same. Surely this cesspool of my negativity towards the truth can be reprieved in the end by God's love which is sprinkled on me covering up my stench. Of course, I don't have a clue what Jesus' blood being sprinkled would do.

- Religion almost inevitably tries to take our anxiety away from us by claiming that which religion can never deliver - absolute certainty.So why should I follow any ones beliefs other than mine. God doesn't know as well as I do, after all he is whatever I determine that he is.

These are just a few of the many passages I highlighted when reading this volume. A book that I"m sure to read again and again for a different point of view, one that talks about the Bible not as a devinely inspired, unchanging thing, but as a tome that was written by men of their time trying to convey the deep meaning of the life altering experiences they encountered. A must read for it's measured, thoughtful, direct and stance.

Since reading this book two weeks agao I've been wondering why I hold certain beliefs, pondering new meanings and finding new insights. In short Spong has done something no other Priest or theologian has done for me in a LONG time - he's got me thinking about the Bible and my relation to it on a daily basis.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Nice Solo....

 

[Vic C.]

I can't see where he'd be a popular favourite on ANYBODY'S forums!

Well maybe it could be popular in fourms that....

1. Respect the earth and the environment and take seriously the believers charge to be a good steward.
2. Those that dont blame the Jews exclusively for Christs death.
3. People tired of Fundamentalist rhetoric of "our creed way or the hell highway".
4. People that respect womens rights.
5. Gay believers who are no better and no worse than straight believers.
6. People questioning the "Pauliantiy" of today verses the teachings of a Compassionate Christ.
7. People who adhere to "Deed over Creed".

Those are the types of people that respect this mans work.

Soma, you could rationalize all this any which way you like and it doesn't change a thing. This man openly questions the validity of God's words and we proved it with his very own words. I guess it doesn't matter much to you that I'm just a "stone's throw' away from where he served; heard and read much of this stuff firsthand. Also, I posted links from very repuatable sources; Anglican and Episcopalian sources.

You are doing yourself a great injustice imposing human secular wisdom on God's word... just as he has. I'd pray for guidance and discernment if I were you.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Spongs not orthodox thats for sure.

I will agree with you on that.

 

[Vic C.]

1. Respect the earth and the environment and take seriously the believers charge to be a good steward.

You make it sound as though most Christians are earth-polluting, natural resources monging people. Not a chance and I don't care for the steroetype much.

2. Those that dont blame the Jews exclusively for Christs death.

What? Most Evangelical and Christians in general I know would first and foremost point the finger at themselves. Another stereotype.

3. People tired of Fundamentalist rhetoric of "our creed way or the hell highway".

I don't live out my Christian life by any particular creed.

4. People that respect womens rights.

Another what!? I respect rights of woman more than you know, so long as my opinions on this doesn't contradict the Word of God.

5. Gay believers who are no better and no worse than straight believers.

If they are still in their sin, they are not right in the eyes of God. That will never change.

6. People questioning the "Pauliantiy" of today verses the teachings of a Compassionate Christ.

As we are threading on this very subject lately, it has to occur to you that a balance much be reached... where exactly does Paul teach a lack of compassion?

7. People who adhere to "Deed over Creed".

Isaiah 64:6 over deed... Faith over deed or should I say, Faith before deed.

 

[Vic C.]

Spongs not orthodox thats for sure.

I will agree with you on that.

LOL, dude neither am I and I disagree with most everything he peddles.

 

[Soma-Sight]

You make it sound as though most Christians are earth-polluting, natural resources monging people. Not a chance and I don't care for the steroetype much.

Ever hear of the Republican party?

Do you know how much of our national park land has been lost since Bush took office?

"We believe, even based on the most optimistic of scenarios, that this would be the equivalent of de facto ethnic cleansing. It would make their way of life unsustainable."

- The Rt. Rev. Mark McDonald, Episcopal bishop of the Diocese of Alaska, comparing the proposed drilling for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Reserve to genocide.

What? Most Evangelical and Christians in general I know would first and foremost point the finger at themselves. Another stereotype.

The following link will show you the Truth of the "stereotype".

Cardinal) Joszef Mindszenty: Hungarian symbol of resistance to Communism throughout the 1950's who was quoted in The B'nai B'rith Messenger, January 28, 1949: "The troublemakers in Hungary are the Jews! They demoralize our country and they are the leaders of the revolutionary gang that is torturing Hungary."

(Preacher) Thomas Short: In November 1996, Christian evangelist Thomas Short was visiting Texas A&M, when he openly declared to a Jewish student that she was "destined for hell." He then told another Jewish student that "Hitler did not go far enough."

(Reverend) Jerry Falwell: On January 14, 1999, Jerry Falwell said "the Anti-Christ is probably alive today and is a male Jew." In his speech, he continued: "Is he alive and here today? Probably. Because when he appears during the Tribulation period he will be a full-grown counterfeit of Christ. Of course he'll be Jewish. Of course he'll pretend to be Christ. And if in fact the Lord is coming soon, and he'll be an adult at the presentation of himself, he must be alive somewhere today."

http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/jew_haters.htm

I don't live out my Christian life by any particular creed.

Your an exception and you know it! Listen to the AM radio to hear how creed oriented the mass Christian movement is.

Another what!? I respect rights of woman more than you know, so long as my opinions on this doesn't contradict the Word of God.

Well your not conforming to the Word of God according to Paul if your wife speaks in Church!

If they are still in their sin, they are not right in the eyes of God. That will never change.

I dont know if being gay is a choice or not. Neighther does any straight man.

I have sinned many times in my life. Never once did I kiss a man or even want to have sex with one. This to me shows that there must be a GENETIC factor behind being gay.

I have been tempted with every sin in the book but never did I want to be gay.

This shows me that it is not a Satanic influence but a genetic "flaw" for the most part.

As we are threading on this very subject lately, it has to occur to you that a balance much be reached... where exactly does Paul teach a lack of compassion?

Pauls calls vegetarians weak and judges continuosly throughout his letters.

Isaiah 64:6 over deed... Faith over deed or should I say, Faith before deed.

Good verse! Good for low self esteem and the subsequent guilt and depression for anyone trying to WALK with Christ.

If I cannot DO ANYTHING pleasing in HIS SITE why do I even try????

 

[Solo]

Let me see, should I believe Spong or should I believe one who is fundamental in his Christian walk?

“Am I suggesting that these stories of the virgin birth are not literally true? The answer is a simple and direct 'Yes.' Of course these narratives are not literally true. Stars do not wander, angels do not sing, virgins do not give birth, magi do not travel to a distant land to present gifts to a baby, and shepherds do not go in search of a newborn savior. ... To talk of a Father God who has a divine-human son by a virgin woman is a mythology that our generation would never have created, and obviously, could not use. To speak of a Father God so enraged by human evil that he requires propitiation for our sins that we cannot pay and thus demands the death of the divine-human son as a guilt offering is a ludicrous idea to our century. The sacrificial concept that focuses on the saving blood of Jesus that somehow washes me clean, so popular in Evangelical and Fundamentalist circles, is by and large repugnant to us todayâ€Â

(John Spong, Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture, Harper, 1991, pp. 215,234).


.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Let me see, should I believe Spong or should I believe one who is fundamental in his Christian walk?

You ever research the Essenes Solo?

They believed all this "washing yourself in blood" was Satanic to begin with.

If anything the crucifixtion was to appease the demons that are the "gods of this world".

Some believe the crucifixtion was the price paid to release us from the "gods of this world".

Demons require blood.

In fact the Essenes believe that those who eat pork and other meat to be giving themselves up to Satanic control.

They affirm that Jesus is the Liberator (Savior) of humankind (and all creation) from sin and the Way of Atonement. However, he is such a Liberator only if accepted, that is, if his saving teachings are followed. Jesus, per se, does not need to be accepted, but the meaning (or "Way") of Jesus must be followed. Essene Christains believe that it is not the death of Jesus on the cross, per se, that saves human beings from sin. Rather, as St. Gregory of Nazianzus and St. Abelard taught, the crucifixion was a way-showing example to all, and a lesson about what evil does to God, even while the resurrection shows that God – Love – triumphs even over Death. Indeed, they believe, it is harmony with the teachings of Jesus – living out his new way of being, a metanoia – that saves from sin. Sin is what human beings (and the whole world) get by being centered-in and living out from Ego, as opposed to in and from the Higher Self. It is the Meaning of Jesus (whose Name translated from Hebrew as “God saves usâ€Â) – his life and his teachings – that provide at-one-ment with God.


Always remember this mentality existed at the time of Christ until the more popular "Pauline" Doctrines took the seat of power in the Church!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Essenes

 

[HisFriend]

The Sins of Scripture : Exposing the Bible's Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love (Hardcover)

This is a very good book for people quesioning the validity of the modern day fundamentalist regime as it relates to the Word of God.

Anyone hear of this guy or this book?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006076 ... oding=UTF8

Spong makes some very good points. The problem is also that he also makes some very bad points.

The other problem is that most Christians don't really want to know the truth anyway. Too many people have been trained to think truth is whatever version of Christianity they want it to be.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Spong makes some very good points. The problem is also that he also makes some very bad points.

TRUE!

I agree with you on this!

As I read the book I was like WOW thats a GREAT POINT and other times I was like WHAT?????? WHERE DID THAT COME FROM?????

 

[SputnikBoy]

The Sins of Scripture : Exposing the Bible's Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love (Hardcover)

This is a very good book for people quesioning the validity of the modern day fundamentalist regime as it relates to the Word of God.

Anyone hear of this guy or this book?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006076 ... oding=UTF8

Spong makes some very good points. The problem is also that he also makes some very bad points.

The other problem is that most Christians don't really want to know the truth anyway. Too many people have been trained to think truth is whatever version of Christianity they want it to be.

So true. Christianity is in a perpetual state of confusion. It's a wonder there are ANY converts to Christianity these days.

We don't need to specifically pick on Spong as being off-base. Just read all of the conflicting views pertaining to the Holy Book on this forum alone!

 

[Vic C.]

Soma,

I am 49. I answered your seven point insurrection from life experience, not web sites. I don't like doing this, but if you really need to know, I was/am into preserving God's creation. I was heavily into the envronmental movement in the 70's and early 80's. I almost got arrested for protesting against nuclear power. I "bucked" the "establishment" every chance I got. I am still to this day a little leary in the trust dept. I will submit to a point as long as it doesn't compromise my Faith. I WILL choose God over government, even if it means persecution.

Just look at some of the people you quoted; Falwell and the Republicans. They don't represent my Faith. They represent themselves.

What does AM radio have to do with my Faith and creeds in general? I don't 'get' your reference.

Paul and women: let me say this as nice as I can.... you really lack cultural and contextual understanding of many key Bible verses and passages. You need to prayerfully consider growing in this area.

On being gay... did you really read what I said? If they are still wallowing in their sin, they are outside of God's will for them. By that I mean, if they are still practicing homosexual behavior, they are still knee-deep in that particular sin. Your conclusions about why being gay MUST be genetic is off base. Using your line of reasoning, someone who has "white" or light skin must be Caucasian. Tell that to someone who is albino, mulatto or Mariah Carey. ;-)

How does Isaiah's verse promote low self-esteem? I don't think low self esteem is an issue for me and if it is, it's NOT because of that verse. :-?

 

[Soma-Sight]

vic,

Well put and you know I love you as a True Christian.

I think your "type" of Christianity is an exception rather than the norm in this country.

That is awesome that you protested back in the 80's and yes I see what you mean about the cultural implications of the "women" subject.

But if that is cultural how is it "objective".

Literalists like to say the Bible is ALL TRUTH and supercedes time in its implications.

Slavery, womens rights, and other topics that Paul deals with DO NOT seem to be TRUTH for this day and age.

As far as the AM radio goes, it is very exclusivistic and more is said about converting than loving your neighbor.

There are a couple exceptions but I just dont listen to it anymore.

How does Isaiah's verse promote low self-esteem? I don't think low self esteem is an issue for me and if it is, it's NOT because of that verse.

To ME that verse implies that our WORKS are worthless to God.

There is nothing pleasing in what we do and only Jesus gets Love from God.

This leads to guilt and fear being a motivator to turn to religion instead of self esteem and pride that you are doing God's work and He loves you for it.

That is all I meant.

Take it easy.

 

[Vic C.]

Soma, I will leave your literal questions to the literalists here. They would be more capable to answer if and why those verses apply to today's culture. Since I have been led to approach much of the Bible from a contextual and cultural perspective (as well as a literal one), my understanding may be different than theirs.

Peace.

 

[Vic C.]

To ME that verse implies that our WORKS are worthless to God.

I will address this before I bow out. Isaiah knew what he was saying. Too many people were trying to gain their way into God's favor. Na ah, it doesn't work that way. That's a "do to gain" system and it's not from the heart.

Cain though he was doing "good", did he not? He thought he going to get on God's "good side", did he not? What were the repercussions of his act? :o