Apology for Witchcraft Victims.

[PopeAlsatiusXVI]

In recent years, many Christian Churches have made apologies to those we have victimized in the past.

Just 13 years ago, Pope John Paul II apologized for the Crusades, Catholic misogyny, Persecution of Galileo, and general mistreatment of native americans.

But neither he, nor any notable protestant figure has apologized for the 40-50,000 women who were burned/hung/ drowned as "witches."

All those womens deaths were justified by the biblical injunction that "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live!"

Though to be fair most of those women weren't witches who were casting spells and brewing potions. Most of them were just the town oddball/outcast who was used as a scapegoat for disease/ bad harvests/ sudden deaths.

What do you all think? And who should give the apology? And who should it be given toward?

 

[Obadiah]

What do you all think? And who should give the apology? And who should it be given toward?

Maybe that's the problem? It's not like these crimes were committed against a particular race or nation or other distinguishable group where anyone could go to their ancestors today and apologize or make restitution. And if I remember right, I don't think it was any one church or denomination that was doing these things. It was more of a general hysteria that occurred in Europe and England as well as the United States. So unlike the things that Pope Paul apologized for, it's pretty hard to pick any one church denomination that should apologize for this. Maybe sometimes we just all have to understand that humanity in general most times hasn't behaved very "human" and try to learn to do better.

 

[Knotical]

I suppose some Christian organization could make a blanket "apology," but I think it would just come off as meaningless.

 

[Claudya]

The best apology might be for the churches to actively speak up and fight against modern witch hunting. Unfortunately, witch hunts still happen in many places of the world.

http://www.vancouverdesi.com/news/i...ed-in-gruesome-modern-day-witch-hunts/335074/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswe...ry-still-drive-women-from-home-in-africa.html
http://www.smh.com.au/world/witchhunt-20130415-2huha.html
(the last of those linked articles is rather graphic.)

 

[Brother Mike]

Though to be fair most of those women weren't witches who were casting spells and brewing potions. Most of them were just the town oddball/outcast who was used as a scapegoat for disease/ bad harvests/ sudden deaths.

What do you all think? And who should give the apology? And who should it be given toward?

I have to think back to what point I ever thought the Roman Catholic church had gotten it right? Who would expect them to even get it right? Even now, how many caught up in Homosexual child abuse?

It seems as if I would be asking my Dog to apologize for eating that steak I left out by mistake. A dog does what dogs do, I certainly don't except a dog to feel remorse or say sorry. The other point, who would care?

Mike.

 

[PopeAlsatiusXVI]

But brother Mike we are on the subject of Witch trials. While admittedly Catholcis dont have entirely clean hands in the ordeal, most of the witches of the time were executed in Germany and Scotland during the height of the Protestant Reformation. The Salem Witch trials certainly were not the doing of the Catholic Church. Why are protestants spared the blame of this ordeal?

 

[turnorburn]

You say pope John apologized, why did he apologize?

tob

 

[PopeAlsatiusXVI]

He apologized for the misdeeds of Catholics in the past that were so contrary to Christ and the Churche's message. Though the Church is perfect, it is made up of and led by very real, very human, very fallible members who are prone to hatreds, selfishness, bigotry and other terrible things.

Papal infallability only extends so far. The Pope is human and makes mistakes, and is not "morally perfect". This explains the many corrupt Popes of the middle ages and renaissance. He is only infallble when he is issuing a teaching on faith or morals.

 

[stovebolts]

Lets not let this become a thread about homosexuality AND the RCC as both topics heat up so fast that we've had to ban those types of discussions in an effort to keep the peace...

That being said, I had the pleasure of hearing Ellie Wiesel speak one evening years ago and he made a valid point concerning the Holocaust where he talked about collective guilt that reminded me of this thread. Collective guilt passes the buck onto an institution, when in fact an institution cannot sin because it's simply an institution. No, people sin, and people collectively make decisions. In this manner, how is Germany as a country responsible for what Hitler did but more importantly, how can modern day Germany ask Jews for forgiveness for something they never had anything to do with.

I commend the Pope for asking forgiveness for his institution, but I don't see that as biblical. Rather, I see people in the bible doing things against other people, and those people ask for forgiveness for sins they themselves are responsible for.

In Eziekiel 18 we see that the people are accountable for their own sins just as a son is not responsible for their fathers sins. In like, sons are not punished for the sins of their fathers either. No, each person is held responsible for their own sins.

With this in mind, Pope John Paul, though admirable, did not sin in the days of the Crusades so how is it that he can ask for forgiveness for an institution? Perhaps he can look back and show remorse for the institution he leads, but he cannot ask forgiveness to people that are long since dead that he himself had nothing to do with.

In like manner, how am I or any other protestant held responsible for witches being burnt at the stake to the point where we should apologize for the sins of people we don't even know?

More importantly, I believe we shed any guilt that is not our own and if we can learn something here, it would be that we are responsible for our actions and we should not pass the sins of people, even a collective people onto the entity of an institution.

 

[PopeAlsatiusXVI]

I think Protestants (and Catholics alike) are culpable merely from a passage in the book we claim to be wholly holy. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live!"

This Old testament injuncture was the justification for all those poor people being killed. Why would God issue such a cruel commandment, for a crime that he knew to be nonexistant?

It also begs the question, that should either of our churches regain our old power, would we be content to live actual wiccans/pagans unmolested?

 

[stovebolts]

Non existent? Think back in your Old Testament... Who was it that brought Samual back from the grave? More importantly, was it a real event? We can learn much from those old old stories.

One thing that most don't realize is that the laws of Moses where to govern Israel, not the other nations. You cannot bind the 613 laws onto a people who were not in agreement (covenant) with the Lord. This applies to the yoke we Christians bind upon ourselves. We cannot force our yoke, let alone the yoke of Christ upon others. That early Christians burnt "witches" at the stake is yet just another example of "racial cleansing" to a lessor degree only shows and affirms our fallen state.

 

[PopeAlsatiusXVI]

Btw, I think the "apology" issued by JPII was more an expression of sorrow or remorse for the misdeeds of the past, though no one victim or perpetrator was a live at the time. The year 2000 was of course the 2000th anniversery of Christianity, so it was almost like a special occasion for expressions of compassion and sorrow

 

[turnorburn]

Then why the thread?

tob

 

[stovebolts]

Btw, I think the "apology" issued by JPII was more an expression of sorrow or remorse for the misdeeds of the past, though no one victim or perpetrator was a live at the time. The year 2000 was of course the 2000th anniversery of Christianity, so it was almost like a special occasion for expressions of compassion and sorrow

The Pope represents an institution much in the same way a business has a CEO or a nation has a President. When one is in the leadership role they are responsible for the organization that they lead, and since it was a Pope from the RCC that partook in the Crusades, it would only be right for a Pope to denounce those actions as a sign of leadership for his current administration.

As it relates to a protestant aplogy, what I can say is this; That the Pope is Roman Catholic does not mean that an Orthodox Catholic should apologize simply because the word Catholic is used. In the same way, why would a Protestant leader apologize for something that the Puritans did? Perhaps if the Puritans were still around and you could find their pope, he could apologize for past leadership.

All this is well and nice, but a leader is only responsible for HIS leadership and to apologize for something one didn't do only associates oneself with the guilt of others that they were never accountable for. In reality, what we are talking about is perception and damage control over systemic sin. That is, sin caused by the top down. John Paul was a fantastic Pope, but he had nothing to apologize for.

 

[Brother Mike]

But brother Mike we are on the subject of Witch trials. While admittedly Catholcis dont have entirely clean hands in the ordeal, most of the witches of the time were executed in Germany and Scotland during the height of the Protestant Reformation. The Salem Witch trials certainly were not the doing of the Catholic Church. Why are protestants spared the blame of this ordeal?

The puritans also killed innocent people (As if there are real witches, duh???) Both Groups did not obey the love command, both groups were confused and did not obey the Word of God. My position stands, why do I care about someone saying sorry if they by nature are evil and dumb as rocks? Evil and dumb people do Evil and dumb things.

What scripture do we have that says the stupidity and ignorance of the past people, must be atoned or apologized from the people of the present who might not be so stupid?

We use to bleed people to death to get disease out of the Body, do I run to the doctors office and ask them to say sorry for being a moron?

So I already know that my great Grandkids will tell me I lived old fashioned. We had DVD's and things that are relics of a ancient time. We were not that bright.



Mike.

 

[Obadiah]

..."Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live!" This Old testament injuncture was the justification for all those poor people being killed. Why would God issue such a cruel commandment, for a crime that he knew to be nonexistant?

Are you actually saying that witchcraft doesn't exist? Then or now? Not true at all. Sure, they don't ride around on flying broomsticks and wear black pointed hats, but witchcraft and witches certainly do exist. Just last week I was witnessing to one! (Not with much success, but I did what I could.)

 

[Brother Mike]

I want to say sorry to anyone I may have offended. I have nothing against people that believe in Catholicism. I don't agree with most of it, but nothing against.

Witches are not real folks!!! Get a grip on it!!! Anything called a witch is no big deal, just a confused person is all.

Blessings.

Mike.

 

[divinecloud7]

Do not make the assumption that witchcraft is anything less than detestable and it's practices are very grievous. While acts of violence are considered questionable and of concern. The act of rebuking, chastising and admonishment is NOT. It quite clearly states that there shall NOT be found among you a sorcerer...meaning a witch. those that practice such mannerisms should be purged from our community and congregation.

"Why apologize when we have no idea the severity that these witches(if valid)were causing in the communities?" If they aren't practicing Christianity then what are they practicing? The only way to the heavenly father and kingdom is through JESUS the son of GOD; being the truth.

Again I do not condone violence, but our police are forced to sometimes end a life to save another.....could this have been the case scenario with the witch hunt's? Witchcraft is in alignment with the enemy(if your not for GOD the heavenly father your against him)and interaction closely with evil spirits; again if the practice is not for GOD the heavenly father it is against him - in opposition. We cannot claim to have sight when we are blinded and many will try to mislead and deceive us into believing otherwise.

Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Brother Mike]

interaction closely with evil spirits; again if the practice is not for GOD the heavenly father it is against him - in opposition. We cannot claim to have sight when we are blinded and many will try to mislead and deceive us into believing otherwise.

Scripture where we deal with "spirits" in confused humans by murder? I fully understand what the OT says, but those back then considered themselves Christians? We should be concerned about evil spirits because????

Mike.

 

[jasoncran]

Lets not let this become a thread about homosexuality AND the RCC as both topics heat up so fast that we've had to ban those types of discussions in an effort to keep the peace...

That being said, I had the pleasure of hearing Ellie Wiesel speak one evening years ago and he made a valid point concerning the Holocaust where he talked about collective guilt that reminded me of this thread. Collective guilt passes the buck onto an institution, when in fact an institution cannot sin because it's simply an institution. No, people sin, and people collectively make decisions. In this manner, how is Germany as a country responsible for what Hitler did but more importantly, how can modern day Germany ask Jews for forgiveness for something they never had anything to do with.

I commend the Pope for asking forgiveness for his institution, but I don't see that as biblical. Rather, I see people in the bible doing things against other people, and those people ask for forgiveness for sins they themselves are responsible for.

In Eziekiel 18 we see that the people are accountable for their own sins just as a son is not responsible for their fathers sins. In like, sons are not punished for the sins of their fathers either. No, each person is held responsible for their own sins.

With this in mind, Pope John Paul, though admirable, did not sin in the days of the Crusades so how is it that he can ask for forgiveness for an institution? Perhaps he can look back and show remorse for the institution he leads, but he cannot ask forgiveness to people that are long since dead that he himself had nothing to do with.

In like manner, how am I or any other protestant held responsible for witches being burnt at the stake to the point where we should apologize for the sins of people we don't even know?

More importantly, I believe we shed any guilt that is not our own and if we can learn something here, it would be that we are responsible for our actions and we should not pass the sins of people, even a collective people onto the entity of an institution.

being the primary posting jew openly. I find that when jews bring up the crusades and the shoah.often its an excuse not to believe. yes the rcc did in the past but I wasn't born during the shoah and all those that were there for the most part are dead or really really old.