Apostasy

[Jethro Bodine]

Aardverk, why after all these years have you not trusted in God's promise to forgive and become a new creation? Don't let misinformation about what it means to have faith in Christ cause you to miss the mark.

There is the 'church of the world', as I like to call it, and there are the real people of God who have been transformed by their faith and trust in God's promise to forgive on the Day of Wrath. Don't take your cues from the 'church of the world'.

I got genuinely born again and could suddenly see the difference between the 'church of the world' and the true people of God.

 

[Aardverk]

Aardverk, why after all these years have you not trusted in God's promise to forgive and become a new creation? Don't let misinformation about what it means to have faith in Christ cause you to miss the mark.

There is the 'church of the world', as I like to call it, and there are the real people of God who have been transformed by their faith and trust in God's promise to forgive on the Day of Wrath. Don't take your cues from the 'church of the world'.

My beliefs probably do not differ greatly from many Christians but, having studied its origins, I can not accept that the Bible is anything more than a compilation put together by 'man' for political reasons and not compiled under the inspiration of God. That, and doubts about the holy trinity, leaves me on the fringes of Christianity, accepting some of the Bible (80% maybe) but not all.

I am most comfortable and completely accepted in 'The Sea of Faith Network'. A great organization for people of all faiths. There is scant membership in the USA but I spend a lot of time in Aus, NZ & the UK (here now). Far better than dwelling on the 'dark side';)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My beliefs probably do not differ greatly from many Christians but, having studied its origins, I can not accept that the Bible is anything more than a compilation put together by 'man' for political reasons and not compiled under the inspiration of God. That, and doubts about the holy trinity, leaves me on the fringes of Christianity, accepting some of the Bible (80% maybe) but not all.

I am most comfortable and completely accepted in 'The Sea of Faith Network'. A great organization for people of all faiths. There is scant membership in the USA but I spend a lot of time in Aus, NZ & the UK (here now). Far better than dwelling on the 'dark side';)

What value do you see in an 80% acceptance of the Bible if that 80% is not enough to convince you to trust in God's promise to forgive on the Day of Wrath and, thus, be transformed into a new creation?

 

[Davies]

The problem with apostates is that they tend to switch very quickly from, 'I believe', to, 'I am an atheist' - with very little or nothing in between. Phil Johnson, in common with most clerics/clergy/elders, accepts no responsibility for that switch. I, as an apostate and having spoken to dozens, maybe hundreds of people in the same situation have a great deal of bad things, blame even, to say about churches and Christian communities.

Good morning Aardverk,

I'd like to be careful here, because I don't think the Church has been perfect in representing Christ, myself included, yet I wouldn't want to take away the responsibility a person has to respond to God's offer of reconciliation. Because I always seem to discover one deficiency or another in myself, I pray that this will help me to trust that God's grace is far greater than I thought it was. The fact that Jesus died for the sin of the world, and that His blood is sufficient to atone for my sins is what is really at stake here. Would I say that His blood was not good enough? Would I blame God for how His presumed followers treat me? I generally think when a person falls away from the faith, they didn't really come to God with the right motivation. Coming to God to have a better life, to escape punishment, to prove to myself I am righteous in the way I live my life are all false motivations to love God or to be faithful to Him. Who knows all the reasons why people profess Christianity?

A great many people are in fact nervous of expressing their real position for fear of ostracism from their neighbors.

I have no doubt that this is true, but not the only reason. It could be that if a person views themselves in the light, they would be greatly ashamed. Shame is one of the worst emotions to feel. Talk to a Muslim, and shame is another word for death, and not the death with the promise of 70 plus virgins. I don't think it's much different with anyone else. Of course, the ostracism would be the salt in the wound instead of using the healing message of Jesus' grace.

I do agree that we need to be able to think without being condemned or being judged. At the same time, we need to be clear on what the Bible says. We are already condemned having not believed in the Son of God. Of course, Jesus came to save that which was already condemned. Although we have the ability to be free thinkers, we are never free to sin, at least not without consequences. Christians should be supportive and encouraging. Ask my wife, and she would say I'm deficient in this regard, but the message of the Gospel, the cross, will always inform us of our fallen nature. That is difficult for us to accept. The other half of the message cannot be accepted, that is that God loves us and offers complete forgiveness unless we accept the first half of the message, that we are vile, foul, unthankful, selfish. When we do see our nature and accept it, owning it, then we will be able to see Jesus, the Beautiful, the Gracious, the Unselfish, the Giver of Life despite all our sins. This magnifies God's glory for all to see and it will only grow in eternity as God reveals His infinite Self.

The blood of Jesus is still good enough for you, Aardverk.

- Davies

 

[Aardverk]

What value do you see in an 80% acceptance of the Bible if that 80% is not enough to convince you to trust in God's promise to forgive on the Day of Wrath and, thus, be transformed into a new creation?

I could glibly answer, 'very little', as that is presumably the view of many Christians who consider that I will not be saved. But what of those Christians who do not accept 100% of the Bible?

I have not chosen to believe something like 80%, it has just turned out that way. It might just as easily have been 30% or 99%. The value to me is the wisdom that I have gleaned from scripture. I can't share your conviction and maybe I won't share eternal life with you but I can share some of the wisdom in this world.

Doubts are unfortunately doubts. I could try to lie to God and pretend that I have no doubts but somehow I don't think that would work. Do you?

 

[Davies]

Doubts are unfortunately doubts. I could try to lie to God and pretend that I have no doubts but somehow I don't think that would work. Do you?

Hello Aardverk,

Reading this last line made me think of this verse:

Mark 9:23-24
New King James Version (NKJV)
23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe,[a] all things are possible to him who believes.â€

24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!â€

What's nice about his prayer is that we see a man depending on Jesus. Yes, he had the privilege of being in the physical presence of Jesus, but we have the Comforter.

- Davies

 

[Aardverk]

I generally think when a person falls away from the faith, they didn't really come to God with the right motivation. Coming to God to have a better life, to escape punishment, to prove to myself I am righteous in the way I live my life are all false motivations to love God or to be faithful to Him. Who knows all the reasons why people profess Christianity?

Hello Davies

I am not convinced that a person falls from faith due to the 'wrong motivation'. It is more likely simply a matter of belief or rather loss of belief. There are compelling arguments to reject the notion of a God and that is still, I suspect, the major reason for people leaving their faith and their church.

The other people are those who change from one denomination to another or perhaps to a church without dogma, just an open door. Whilst there are doubtless many reasons for these changes, we must accept that many do change their denomination for very carefully considered reasons.

I know I have said it here before but we must not lose sight of the fact that there are 200 major Christian denominations (plus thousands of cults). Whichever one fits you best, it remains a fact that there are 199 other denominations that have different beliefs from you. IF someone is studying theology and find 'facts' that undermine firm beliefs that have been held for years - and they then find out that the church down the road has been teaching that all their life, it is almost inevitable that they will change churches. That is nothing to do with a lack of the right motivation.

I do agree entirely with your examples of false motivations.

 

[Aardverk]

23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe,[a] all things are possible to him who believes.â€
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!â€
What's nice about his prayer is that we see a man depending on Jesus.

God has probably got pretty fed up over the years with my repeated prayers to help me believe:help

I really have have tried and tried Davies but the joy of belief that you have, has always eluded me. An alternative is to deliberately try to delude myself. I tried that a few times but I simply can not ignore the facts as I see them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I could glibly answer, 'very little', as that is presumably the view of many Christians who consider that I will not be saved. But what of those Christians who do not accept 100% of the Bible?

If the parts you do not believe keep you from receiving God's forgiveness then those parts you do believe have no meaning...and certainly little, or limited value.

I have not chosen to believe something like 80%, it has just turned out that way. It might just as easily have been 30% or 99%. The value to me is the wisdom that I have gleaned from scripture. I can't share your conviction and maybe I won't share eternal life with you but I can share some of the wisdom in this world.

But that's exactly the problem with the church...spirit-less people who do not belong to God influencing the church with their wisdom. I say this with all due respect. I'm not being mean or nasty. I'm just making a point that any honest person would agree it's not right to complain about the church but then turn right around and think godless people who don't even believe the Bible can, or should have influence in it.

Doubts are unfortunately doubts. I could try to lie to God and pretend that I have no doubts but somehow I don't think that would work. Do you?

No, it doesn't work. My wife is exactly at this place. People who do that sooner or later become apostate, and my wife is no exception. She 'took a break' from the faith 11 years ago.

I personally encourage anyone with doubts to work your doubts out before attempting to be somehow identified with the church, even in the littlest of ways. The true people of God have enough trouble keeping up appearances (I'm including myself in that). How much more trouble it causes when the church suffers because of the failures of those who are not the people of God, but who have been allowed to join themselves to us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know a little bit about what goes on in the mind of those who 'can't' believe because my wife has complained about this all her life. I have the privilege of knowing what's going on inside of her and what is standing between her and belief in God. She simply can not accept some things she knows to be the truth about God.

The interesting thing I've noticed in all my years of a Christian is that ultimately unbelief is rooted in some kind of rejection of God, not the other way around. IOW, God can not grant the power to believe to someone who is somewhere, somehow resisting God. This has nothing to do with believing things like the Trinity, etc. This is all about questioning the goodness and justice and character of God. People who are doing that are not the ones God grants the power to believe and trust in his forgiveness to. The rejection of truth (about God's character and his judgments) is what holds people fast in unbelief about sin and forgiveness. But we tend to think it is the unbelief that keeps people from acknowledging that which is truth. Not true in my experience with all the unbelievers I've talked to over the years in the work place.

 

[Aardverk]

If the parts you do not believe keep you from receiving God's forgiveness then those parts you do believe have no meaning...and certainly little, or limited value.

Quite right. Better than nothing though?

I personally encourage anyone with doubts to work your doubts out before attempting to be somehow identified with the church, even in the littlest of ways.

Quite right again. That is why I stopped calling myself a Christian. It confused people.

The true people of God have enough trouble keeping up appearances.

Quite right again. None of us are perfect and those who try to appear so, usually make fools of themselves and their church.

I know a little bit about what goes on in the mind of those who 'can't' believe because my wife has complained about this all her life. I have the privilege of knowing what's going on inside of her and what is standing between her and belief in God. She simply can not accept some things she knows to be the truth about God.

Ah - there I have to say that you are probably quite wrong. I dare you to tell your wife that you know what is going on inside her head You can not know what is going on in someone else's mind and you certainly can not know what another person 'knows to be the truth about God'. That is between them and God alone.

The interesting thing I've noticed in all my years of a Christian is that ultimately unbelief is rooted in some kind of rejection of God.....

No, I'm sorry but this is a very popular misconception among those with faith. It is a simple contradiction of terms to say that someone who does not believe has rejected God. They may have rejected the stories of God that have been told to them but that is not the same as rejecting God. To reject God, first you have to know that he exists. If you 'know' that he exists, you will undoubtedly follow some form of religion. Perhaps not Christianity in your preferred form but you will follow some religion or other.

God can not grant the power to believe to someone who is somewhere, somehow resisting God.

You know, I always had the idea that God could do anything He wanted to do. I wouldn't place limitations on God's powers if I were you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Actually I do know what's going on in my wife's head...she has told me. It took years to finally learn the root of her unbelief. From there it was easy to identify the same root problem in others.

It all boils down to what a person believes about God's definition of sin and how just it is. If you can't accept God's truth about sin and his justice you will not, and can not, receive his free gift of forgiveness. Unbelievers are still in the great debate with God about sin and judgment. As long as that debate continues a person will not be given the grace of salvation. This ongoing debate about sin and the justice of God in a person manifests itself in unbelief...even the inability to believe. It's an interesting truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, I'm sorry but this is a very popular misconception among those with faith.

It is because many people in the church do not properly understand what it is we believe in that solicits salvation. It's not the facts about God that save a person. It's the belief that you agree with God what sin is, and that he will forgive your sins for the asking. Knowing God exists and that he is real comes with his revelation about what sin is and his offer to forgive that sin. Understand?

It is a simple contradiction of terms to say that someone who does not believe has rejected God. They may have rejected the stories of God that have been told to them but that is not the same as rejecting God. To reject God, first you have to know that he exists.

I know it sounds like a contradiction, that is if one does not understand what 'belief' saves and which does not. Believing facts about God does not save. Believing that God is the one who defines sin and makes just judgments about it is the belief saves. Can you see the difference and why what I'm saying is not contradictory? I'd be happy to expound if necessary.

If you 'know' that he exists, you will undoubtedly follow some form of religion. Perhaps not Christianity in your preferred form but you will follow some religion or other.

...And probably one that better suits what one thinks the definition of sin, and the justice to judge it should look like. I'd be surprised if you did not agree with this.

You know, I always had the idea that God could do anything He wanted to do. I wouldn't place limitations on God's powers if I were you.

God has the power to reveal the truth about sin and his judgments to anyone, anywhere. He can't be true to his own justice if he saves people who don't agree with his definition of sin, and his authority and justice to deal with it.

 

[Davies]

The interesting thing I've noticed in all my years of a Christian is that ultimately unbelief is rooted in some kind of rejection of God, not the other way around. ...This has nothing to do with believing things like the Trinity, etc. This is all about questioning the goodness and justice and character of God.

Hi Jethro,

I think you have a valid point. I think recognizing a person doesn't believe indicates an evil heart. For someone who doesn't know God, this may seem unreasonable, but if you are serious about the truth, then from the Christian perspective, one has to acknowledge their heart is evil.


Hebrews 3:12-13
New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,†lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

The reason why someone doesn't put their faith in Jesus is because they don't want to be exposed as being evil. After all, 'I pay my taxes. I obey the laws of the land, and I don't beat my children. I'm a good person.'

Often people will use the circumstances of their life to inform them of the character and nature of God. 'If God allows these bad things to happen, then I don't want any part of Him.'

John 3:19-21
New King James Version (NKJV)
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.â€

How many people do you know that are not Christians that are willing to say they hate Jesus Christ? I can't think of any. Yet, they live their lives in unbelief showing they hate the light, the very place Jesus lives. This was true in my life before being converted. I imagine the struggles I have now most likely stem from unbelief. The three years the apostles spent with Jesus is filled with professions of faith and unbelief, but thank God we have an advocate with the Father who intercedes on our behalf.

When your trust is in Jesus Christ, your conception of His grace will be greatly expanded to accommodate its reality. Even Paul needed to be reminded that God's grace was sufficient for him.

- Davies

 

[Davies]

Hello Davies

I am not convinced that a person falls from faith due to the 'wrong motivation'.

Aardverk,

I'm thinking if a person comes to Jesus because they know they sinned against God, suffering godly sorrow because it was the Savior who bled and died for them, their faith may suffer trials and even failures as was the case with Peter, but God will keep them. The saving power is not in the person, that is God's department.

There are compelling arguments to reject the notion of a God and that is still, I suspect, the major reason for people leaving their faith and their church.

Compelling reasons to leave the faith need to be identified as temptations. If a person leaves the Christian faith, I think it was because they didn't love the truth. There is the bitter, but there is the sweet as well.

IF someone is studying theology and find 'facts' that undermine firm beliefs that have been held for years - and they then find out that the church down the road has been teaching that all their life, it is almost inevitable that they will change churches. That is nothing to do with a lack of the right motivation.

I'll try to use an example to explain my disagreement with the last sentence in terms of abandoning one's faith, not so much the church one is attending. When you first fall in love, wouldn't you do anything for your wife or girl friend? How much people are willing to suffer for the one they love. Love is the right motivation. Often we here of examples of people dieing for someone else, and there is no greater love than that! It is the love for Jesus/God that will enable a person to face what's truly in the heart.

- Davies

 

[Aardverk]

It all boils down to what a person believes about God's definition of sin and how just it is. If you can't accept God's truth about sin and his justice you will not, and can not, receive his free gift of forgiveness.

If we are still talking about apostasy, it is not really a matter of what the apostate believes about God's definitions, it is a matter of what they believe about their fellows' definition. Consider - all denominations believe different things, therefore the definitions differ, you may claim to be right - so does everyone else. If you are over-confident, you risk driving apostates away from God. Is that a risk you are happy to take?

Unbelievers are still in the great debate with God about sin and judgment.

Unbelievers are certainly not in a debate with God. They may well be in a debate with people who claim to know the mind of God but that claimed knowledge is arrogance in the extreme. Again, that presumed mind of God differs from denomination to denomination.

I have no problem with people believing that they know the truth - good luck to them. Where I have a problem is when their over-confident beliefs actually drive people away from God. I find that very sad. s a Christian, I always felt that it was my duty to draw people to God, not drive them away (See also my response to Davies about an 'evil heart').

 

[Aardverk]

Hi Jethro, I think you have a valid point. I think recognizing a person doesn't believe indicates an evil heart. For someone who doesn't know God, this may seem unreasonable, but if you are serious about the truth, then from the Christian perspective, one has to acknowledge their heart is evil.

Hebrews 3:12-13(NKJV)
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,†lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

So, you are stating very clearly that I have an evil heart. Let us just assume that is truly your belief. Now put yourself in the position of some poor soul suffering torments of doubt and trying with all their heart to do the right thing. Your fellows, Davies etc, then tell you that you have an evil heart and that you are a sinner.

What do you think you are likely to do? If you are dull-witted or under-confident, you may well submit to the ‘authority’ of your fellows. If you are intelligent and confident, you will be offended that your fellows should abuse you based simply on some words written hundreds of years ago by some unknown person. You are likely to walk away from them and disregard their intolerant beliefs.

What you have written is exactly the sort of thing that drives people away from church, from Christianity and from God. In psychological terms, it is also very clear mental abuse.

Now, which is most important to you? 1. That you have your interpretation and you will stick to it regardless of the consequences to other, struggling, people, OR 2. You help and support your fellow man to come to God and/or stay with God even though it may not be precisely on your terms? Your choice! Just bear in mind that you have raised a thread on apostasy and that statements such as yours definitely drive people away.

The reason why someone doesn't put their faith in Jesus is because they don't want to be exposed as being evil.

Just bear in mind that you refer here to your definition of evil. By no means all Christians take the entire bible literally let alone those people who don’t put their faith in Jesus. The Bible was written in a different age for a different people and it was anticipated that it would be read to the illiterate in competition with other religions. I am sorry to say so but you are confusing yourself by trying to judge other people by your own standards. If you want to understand what motivates other people, you must try to understand how THEY think, not how YOU think. Even the best psychotherapists take a long time before they understand someone enough to think that they know what motivates them and even then, they are only guessing. What chance do you have?

How many people do you know that are not Christians that are willing to say they hate Jesus Christ? I can't think of any. Yet, they live their lives in unbelief showing they hate the light, the very place Jesus lives.

No, no, no. It shows nothing of the sort. You are again trying to judge people by your standards and your motivation. Life is not that simple Davies. I withdraw my earlier assertion that you would be a suitable person to help an apostate back into the fold, you appear to be working in the opposite direction. I had obviously misjudged you.

I am always willing to hear other people's ideas but I feel here that you are just contributing to the problem. Do you really think that Jesus would have claimed that someone had an 'evil heart' just because they did not believe he was the son of God? I am sure you 'know' that he would not have rejected people or labelled people for such normal 'human' behavior. Yet, on the strength of something written 300 years later you are prepared to label and condemn your fellow man. That is truly a Christian thing to do and one of the reasons I no longer call myself a Christian.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we are still talking about apostasy, it is not really a matter of what the apostate believes about God's definitions, it is a matter of what they believe about their fellows' definition.

If a person decides Christianity does not represent God's definitions of sin and judgment, but they once accepted it as that, even if only reluctantly, that makes that person an apostate. And I have found it is this matter of sin and judgment and the character of God that causes people to become apostate and no longer 'believe', or not ever believe to begin with. It is the dividing line upon which people either believe or don't believe.

Consider - all denominations believe different things, therefore the definitions differ, you may claim to be right - so does everyone else. If you are over-confident, you risk driving apostates away from God. Is that a risk you are happy to take?

In essential matters of faith and salvation...absolutely. If a person does not want to accept what the Bible says about sin, righteousness, and the judgment to come they should be clearly separated by those beliefs from those who do accept what the Bible says about that. I don't believe Jesus had any desire to dumb down the truths he taught in hopes of winning apostates back to a faith that even he did not endorse. Understand? IOW, to win an apostate back to the faith by changing it's fundamental beliefs about sin and the judgment of God to comfort and appease them is not winning them back to the faith. That would be replacing the true faith with a different one. Why would I want to do that?

Unbelievers are certainly not in a debate with God. They may well be in a debate with people who claim to know the mind of God but that claimed knowledge is arrogance in the extreme. Again, that presumed mind of God differs from denomination to denomination.

If there is one thing I know it's the fact that when unbelievers resist the Christian faith it comes down to their nonacceptance of what the Christian faith says is damnable sin, and God's authority and justice to pass judgment on it. And if you once accepted that definition but then later rejected it, that makes that person an apostate. This is the dividing line between the righteous and the unrighteous, the saved and the unsaved.

I have no problem with people believing that they know the truth - good luck to them. Where I have a problem is when their over-confident beliefs actually drive people away from God. I find that very sad. s a Christian, I always felt that it was my duty to draw people to God, not drive them away (See also my response to Davies about an 'evil heart').

From my point of view as a Christian who defends what the Bible says, what good is it for me to draw people to a lie?

You have to leave Christianity (become an apostate) to teach and defend other beliefs about sin and the judgment to come. And IMO it is very important that people do that and make it clear they no longer believe what the Bible says about sin and judgment and the God who's going to pass that judgment. That way the truth is preserved for those who do believe it and thus saved on the Day of Wrath.

But again, I say it is this matter of what constitutes damnable sin, and our responsibilities to the One who will judge that sin that causes people to be unbelievers and apostates. You can add as much window dressing to it as you want to make it look good and honorable and noble to reject Christianity or open it up to Biblically contrary beliefs but it always comes down to a person rejecting what the Christian faith says about sin and judgment and the one who will pass that judgment that determines if a person will believe and be saved, or not.

If people understood this when they have opportunity to witness they'd be able to cut right to the heart of the matter and not be distracted by peripheral matters of the faith that don't determine one's fate. Accepting what the Bible says about sin and judgment and the One who passes judgment is what determines a person's fate. Those who continue in the great debate about sin and judgment taught in the Bible will not, and can not, be saved by the God of the Bible. Those who surrender completely to his judgments are the ones who are shown mercy and saved on the Day of Wrath. You can't resist God and expect to be saved by God. But so many people think they have some kind of chance on the Day of Wrath despite their objections to his justice. My wife thinks that. Do you?

 

[Davies]

Hello Aardverk,

I'm sorry you feel that you've misjudged me, or that you've rightly judged me now. I'll try to explain my points clearly to avoid being a stumbling block to you, but you know I claim to be a Christian, so you shouldn't be surprised that what I'm presenting is Christian doctrine. It's not about my own opinion of you, because I really don't know you, but it is about what the Bible says. If you have a problem with what the Bible says, then what else can I say then I hope you would reconsider.

So, you are stating very clearly that I have an evil heart. Let us just assume that is truly your belief.

You can safely assume that is truly my belief. The reason I know this without knowing you personally is because of what the Bible says about man.

Romans 3:10-18
New King James Version (NKJV)
10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[a]
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”; [c]
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[d]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[e]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[f]

Now, a person is apt to walk away from God because of this news, but all it takes is an honest evaluation of asking yourself if you have obeyed the Ten Commandments to see that you are not righteous. We don't compare ourselves with each other to judge whether we are righteous, because if you we did, we may come to the conclusion that you personally are a much better person then I am. I don't know what you've done in your life, but I just might have you beat in the sin department. Would you declare yourself righteous before God in your own standing? Tell me you never lied, stolen, always did what your parents told you to do, never looked at another person with sexual desire(adultery of the heart), never hated someone, never desired something that belongs to someone else, and always put God first in everything you did and said.

Just bear in mind that you refer here to your definition of evil.

I specifically quoted the words of Jesus. This is not my definition of evil. I'm not saying anything about you that is not true about myself. The only difference is that I desire to trust Jesus with all my heart, and you have chosen to reduce the Bible to the words of man.

Do you really think that Jesus would have claimed that someone had an 'evil heart' just because they did not believe he was the son of God? I am sure you 'know' that he would not have rejected people or labelled people for such normal 'human' behavior.

You want to talk about normal human behavior? Have you turned on your television lately? What is normal for human behavior is an abomination in the sight of God. Isn't it amazing though we show ourselves to be sinful, we still have the most wonderful promises in the Bible that despite our sinfulness, God takes delight in forgiving. If it required God Himself to be sacrificed on the cross in order to pay for our sins, then we should understand our standing before God. The cross proclaims to every person they are a sinner, but at the same time, Jesus paid for our sin and commands everyman to repent and to put their trust in Him. There is no other way Aardverk to salvation than by the cross of Jesus. That is why I shared the passages I have.

John 3:16-21
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Sorry for such a large quote, but these are the words of Jesus. If you say I'm judging you because I believe in the words of Jesus, well, I would hope to convince you otherwise.

- Davies

 

[Aardverk]

I specifically quoted the words of Jesus. This is not my definition of evil.

....I don't believe Jesus had any desire to dumb down the truths he taught...

Hello gentlemen.

I would very much like to continue with this discussion but I am just about to set off again and will be incommunicado for a while. I will try to respond in about a week.

Best wishes Aardverk