Apostasy

[Aardverk]

You are free to remain an apostate...and for each and every reason you have decided to do that. Now, let me believe, for each and every reason I do, why people choose to become apostate. And let me enjoy my freedom to share it in this Christian forum without me having to endure your personal attacks and threats of judgment and your unfair treatment of my posts.

I don't want the mods to think it necessary to lock this thread, so I will have nothing more to say to you either directly or indirectly.

As you have made a final statement, I will make mine. I will do so mainly by reminding you what has been said. I have no more attacked you than you have attacked me Jethro. You simply don't like your pronouncements being questioned.

I've been very tolerant of your sassy insults, and the cutting up of my quotes to unfairly present them.

By ‘sassy insults’ you probably mean what some of us call humor. I don't recall making any insults.

If I quote someone and insert a few dots thus……… , it very obviously means I have left out some words and I am, by that means, making that fact crystal clear. Anyone interested can check the whole wording if they so wish. You on the other hand have repeatedly misrepresented me by putting words in my mouth. When challenged, you have always failed to support your misrepresentation. You have never once quoted the words you claim I used even when specifically asked to do so. Which of us do you think is being unfair?

You have consistently claimed a privileged 'true Christian' position of knowledge and failed to recognize that there is more than one interpretation of the Bible. With the ‘confidence' of that position, you have chosen to deliberately drive people away from Christianity. I have suggested that is a bad, un-Christian thing to do and that you are in a small minority.

I have crossed swords with a few people on this forum, no one more so than jasoncran so I would like to use his words above to help you understand that the position you are taking is dangerous to Christian harmony – let alone wider harmony.

11 April: the problem with the church is that we seem to have this i have to agree with all that pastor says and does because he is the pastor and if i dont i must go elsewhere. ………………. oh the looks i get when i say i dont believe in the same things

Remember what those dots mean Jethro. You are behaving like jasoncran's pastor. What does that tell you?

12 April: I got genuinely born again and could suddenly see the difference between the 'church of the world' and the true people of God.

You are assuming a position of perfect knowledge. I strongly suggest that you do not! You not only insult ALL apostates but ALL Christians who disagree with you as well.

12 April: There is a small opportunity on this forum to genuinely help people with doubts but they are instead being labelled and rejected. Very sad.

That was my message, quite reasonably placed under a thread about apostasy. I don't think you ever understood it but I hope you now take time to reflect upon whether you should be driving people away or if you should be helping them to stay Christians and/or return to Christianity. May God help you and everyone you talk to:help

 

[jasoncran]

@ jethro, i was saying that in reference to eschatology. in fact, i have been called downright anti-semetic another christian forum for saying that modern isreal isnt in prophecy. yet i am jew and have family in isreal that i havent met yet, cousins who lost relatives in the shoah. go figure.

its one thing to call someout on false doctrines and that are really heritical. shoot i could into depth on dispy and why that is so heritical but alas it would do more harm then good and well tis not salvinical so i dont go into in person, just on the .net do i say what i say. though if a person is willing in the"real world" then i will oblidge them but also i realise that I MIGHT be wrong on my end. we dont know till He returns.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

@ jethro, i was saying that in reference to eschatology. in fact, i have been called downright anti-semetic another christian forum for saying that modern isreal isnt in prophecy. yet i am jew and have family in isreal that i havent met yet, cousins who lost relatives in the shoah. go figure.

its one thing to call someout on false doctrines and that are really heritical. shoot i could into depth on dispy and why that is so heritical but alas it would do more harm then good and well tis not salvinical so i dont go into in person, just on the .net do i say what i say. though if a person is willing in the"real world" then i will oblidge them but also i realise that I MIGHT be wrong on my end. we dont know till He returns.

I know from reading your posts in this forum that there is no reason to think your quote below (as someone else has quoted it) means you think the problem with the church is we aren't allowed to disagree with and debate the fundamental and non-negotiable truths of the faith with the pastor. I knew you probably weren't talking about those things at all when you said this:

Originally Posted by jasoncran
11 April: "the problem with the church is that we seem to have this i have to agree with all that pastor says and does because he is the pastor and if i dont i must go elsewhere. ………………. oh the looks i get when i say i dont believe in the same things"

But thank you for taking the time to clear up any potential misunderstanding.

 

[jasoncran]

i have asked my leadership if they have a problem with me being amil? nope so long as i believe jesus is the lord and savior of all men who come to him.

i cant call the local jews my bros in christ nor can i call the jws such either.

 

[Fedusenko]

Jason, what does amil mean?

 

[jasoncran]

amillenilist meaning that i dont believe in a literal thousand reign of christ on the earth. at that time i said that i didnt. i do believe a thousand year reign just not as taught today.

 

[Fedusenko]

Can you explain in a short paragraph? No is an acceptable answer.

 

[Former Christian]

Jasoncran

Perhaps you believe something more closely akin to historical premillennialism?

NC

 

[jasoncran]

Can you explain in a short paragraph? No is an acceptable answer.

no.i have to buy the book on the old millenialism.

 

[Comprehender]

Comprehender



Most Christians believe that the Law was abolished, except for the moral law, understood generally as the ten commandments or some part thereof.

I’m one who doesn’t believe that the Law was abolished. The verses that are interpreted to say that it was abolished are misunderstood. I believe that both are necessary. To follow the letter and the Spirit of the Law.

Jesus fulfilled the part of the Law that pertained to him as well as kept the whole Law perfectly. The part of the Law that only pertained to Jesus, we can’t fulfill. But that part of the Law helps us to understand what it was he accomplished by fulfilling that part of the Law. It helps us to understand the Lord’s Table, which in Spirit is an experience of participation in the body and blood of Christ. An experience of what Jesus fulfilled.

But we are expected to fulfill the rest of the Law, by keeping it, that is using it as a guide for our lives, through the Spirit.

Be clear. The Law has nothing to do with our Justification. We are Justified through the faith of Christ. Our own faith in God and in his provision in Christ, only puts us into the proper position to be Justified. In Christ.

NC

Thanks for your replies.
I guess I get as annoyed with taking parables literally as literalists do at taking parables - symbolically, as parables.
"Without a parable spake he not unto them."

 

[Comprehender]

I have never found a forum such as you describe - or I would be there:yes

There are some genuinely intelligent and kind people here but I think it is fair to say that many people are happiest arguing over scripture, even in 'General Talk'. It is often very hard to drag people back to the topic once they get on their soapbox so I generally just trade quotes with them for a while whilst they make fools of themselves;) In fairness though, once a moderator insists that we get back on topic, an interesting debate often just dries up and the thread dies - so we have to tolerate a bit of tub-thumping and deviation.

I hate to use the phrase 'Christian Values' but they are sometimes hard to spot here. Don't give up yet though, another open mind is good to see. There are a few of us.

As an apostate yourself, you have a perspective that most here do not have. I feel it may be helpful to others if you share a little bit more of how you were treated, how you felt and why you left your church. It is obvious that at least two contributors to this tread simply do not understand.

Ok - What do I have to lose? My status of being a non-apostate? :nod
Seriously, thanks for asking.

I haven't actually left my church - it's the Mormon cult & if you are in it, it's often hard to get out without ripping your life apart. Mormonism is life-consuming - dictating everything from your schedule and money - to your underwear. The "apostate" badgering continues partly because I can't keep my mouth shut. Just last night, it was me against them - debating. Debate is fine - I even like it - until it gets personal, like it did & then I left. It's one thing to disagree with a person's beliefs, but it's another to put the person down. I've been called, "crazy", "going down the wrong road," "struggling apostate," "being influenced by Satan" or "screwed up" for questioning Mormon leaders. I've been threatened with divorce for not paying 10% of income to Mormon leaders (because then I'm not temple worthy & we were married in the temple). My mom's thrown me out of her house (when I was visiting) for showing her proof that the LDS church is a con by showing how leaders charge $ for worthiness & they've purposefully left Deut 14:28-29 out of curriculum (this scripture states 1/3 of tithes are for those in need, which LDS leaders don't follow at all).

In many ways, my life is better since I've given up "old wine bottles" that were no longer helpful - less shame, more possibilities. In many ways, it's harder because I no longer have the support that I had before. It's just me. I know of nobody that believes as I do about important things. I hope there are some out there - but maybe this is a time in my life where I need to develop muscle by myself without leaning on others so much. This is a time when I need to explore my soul (the kingdom of God within Luke 17:21), including the "dark night" of unconvering old wounds in need of healing, which seems to be where I keep visiting.

 

[Aardverk]

I know of nobody that believes as I do about important things. I hope there are some out there - but maybe this is a time in my life where I need to develop muscle by myself without leaning on others so much.

I really do understand Comprehender. Vast numbers of us are in the same position and it is not just Mormons who try to dictate your life.

Once you reject any element of teaching, some 'teachers' simply can not take it and react very badly against you. Religion can bring the best out of people but it also seems to bring out the worst too.

'I know of nobody that believes as I do' is, in truth, something most of us can say. Many hide their differences for fear of being ostracized but we all believe different things. Just read this forum to get proof of that! Talking of 'proof', that is the problem. There is no 'proof' and we all have to take everything about God as a matter of 'faith' or belief. No one can tell you what you must believe, you either believe something or you do not. It is not a fault nor is it a quality, it is just a fact of life.

My very best wishes for your struggle. It may well last you the rest of your life and it can be hard work but being honest to yourself and to others is, I think, the right thing to do. The problem is, some people simply do not understand and it is sometimes difficult being patient and polite to them ;)

 

[rainbows]

Hello everyone, this is my first post.

Just checking the fonts and font sizes.

The simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Arial

The simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Book antiqua

The simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Gothic

The simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Comic sans

The simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Courier

The simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Georgia

The simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. impact

The simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. times new roman

Apostasia, means falling away, defection.

Thanks everyone.

 

[Comprehender]

I really do understand Comprehender. Vast numbers of us are in the same position and it is not just Mormons who try to dictate your life.

Once you reject any element of teaching, some 'teachers' simply can not take it and react very badly against you. Religion can bring the best out of people but it also seems to bring out the worst too.

'I know of nobody that believes as I do' is, in truth, something most of us can say. Many hide their differences for fear of being ostracized but we all believe different things. Just read this forum to get proof of that! Talking of 'proof', that is the problem. There is no 'proof' and we all have to take everything about God as a matter of 'faith' or belief. No one can tell you what you must believe, you either believe something or you do not. It is not a fault nor is it a quality, it is just a fact of life.

My very best wishes for your struggle. It may well last you the rest of your life and it can be hard work but being honest to yourself and to others is, I think, the right thing to do. The problem is, some people simply do not understand and it is sometimes difficult being patient and polite to them ;)

Thank you, Aardverk.
What you wrote here means a lot to me.
It's really encouraging & refreshing to feel understood.

It is tough to be honest with myself & others.
Most of us can't handle the truth - we prefer our own version of it & want to put down any other version. It's like the story of the blind men - each felt a different part of the elephant & explained what they thought it was based on what they felt & smelt... Not until they compared notes did they realize the big picture - that it was an elephant.