Appeal of Calvinism....

[Guest]

With the recent discussions here about Calvinism, it reminded me of the appeal Calvinism had for me while I was in college - which also turned out to be the same reason why I eventually turned away from Calvinism.

Calvinism as a set of theological system is very logical. It logically makes sense - and that makes it appealing.

However, that 'logic' raises a some questions. The first one being:

1) Is "grace" logical? I would contend that by it's very definition 'grace' is not logical. However, before I explain, let me make it clear that I believe God is logical - but that does not mean that I (we) have the ability to understand that logic.

Without violating any of God's attributes, God could condemn us all, rather God choose not to.

 

[Solo]

Your logic is flawed. God did not condemn anyone. We were born condemned sinners. God's "grace" or in other words, God's "unmerited favor" is such that if you lean towards the Armenian side of the fence, is extended to all men, but given to all that believe; or if you lean towards the Calvin side of the fence, is extended to all men that are chosen by God. The logic behind God's grace is His immense love.

 

[Guest]

If God did not condemn anyone, then who did?

How can one be born 'condemned'?

Condemnation would have to come from somewhere.

 

[Solo]

If God did not condemn anyone, then who did?

How can one be born 'condemned'?

Condemnation would have to come from somewhere.

We are born sinners as descendents of Adam, and the wages of sin is death.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Jesus came into the world to save us from death. Those that believe in Jesus Christ are no longer condemned to death, but are instead given eternal life. Notice verse 17 states that God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world.

Jesus explains this condemnation: 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:17-21

Sinners were condemned to death because God warned Adam and Eve that if they ate of the one tree in the Garden of Eden, they would die. He did not say that he would kill them, He warned them that they would die. They sinned against God bringing death to all sinners, and all that are descendents of Adam inherited the sinful flesh from Adam.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. Romans 5:8-16

 

[Guest]

Therefore, God is the one who has passed the condemnation.

Man cannot condemn himself.

 

[Solo]

Therefore, God is the one who has passed the condemnation.

Man cannot condemn himself.

If you walk in front of a train, whose fault is it, yours or God's.
If you fail to walk in obedience to God, whose fault is it, yours or God's?

You have much to learn, and your comprehension is lacking. You must be young. Keep reading the word of God, meditate on the word of God, pray to him unceasingly for His wisdom and understanding as well as protection from doctrinal error. God bless.

 

[Guest]

If you walk in front of a train, whose fault is it, yours or God's.
If you fail to walk in obedience to God, whose fault is it, yours or God's?

If God does not condemn, then it would not matter if I walked in obedience to God or not - there would be no condemnation.

Condemnation is not about assessing 'fault' or 'blame'.

If I commit a crime, it is my fault - however there is still a judicial system that 'condemns' my actions.

 

[Solo]

If God does not condemn, then it would not matter if I walked in obedience to God or not - there would be no condemnation.

Condemnation is not about assessing 'fault' or 'blame'.

If I commit a crime, it is my fault - however there is still a judicial system that 'condemns' my actions.

I thought you were a Christian. How can you be a Christian with no more knowledge than you have shown thus far?

Would you like to venture into basic Christian teaching so that you can examine yourself and insure that you have truly been born again?

 

[stranger]

With the recent discussions here about Calvinism, it reminded me of the appeal Calvinism had for me while I was in college - which also turned out to be the same reason why I eventually turned away from Calvinism.

Calvinism as a set of theological system is very logical. It logically makes sense - and that makes it appealing.

However, that 'logic' raises a some questions. The first one being:

1) Is "grace" logical? I would contend that by it's very definition 'grace' is not logical. However, before I explain, let me make it clear that I believe God is logical - but that does not mean that I (we) have the ability to understand that logic.

Without violating any of God's attributes, God could condemn us all, rather God choose not to.

Hi AloneVoice,

I agree that there is appeal in a system be it Calvinism, Lutheranism, or any other ...ism. Possible such systems of theology are more appealing to some than to others. I have yet to be convinced that it is not a 'label' of sorts identifying certain distinctives and I have raised this issue before - that our primary identification as Christians is 'Christian' first and foremost.

The weakness of any system may simply be that the devotee will not look outside that system - so all the reading they do will be from the perspective of pre-approved writers who re-enforce but seldom rock the boat. Then when they come across literature of another bent - they read it with a view to refute, find fault and condemn. This sort of trend is cultic.

blessings: stranger

 

[Rick W]

Nobody had to teach me how to lie, steal, bear false witness, make excuses, not to share and most of all the motivation to protect/bolster my pride. (which pretty much covers all the former entries).
I was perfectly capable of all these things. I had to be taught these inherent attributes were not good even though they felt right.

Let's run with the assumption only God condemns. If so then a question for an atheist would be "Where does knowledge that stealing is wrong come from when you believe there is no God?". The atheist could not admit God condemns for to do so testifies for the existence of God. Then where does the basis of that judgment come from? To say "I know it's wrong" doesn't answer the question of where that knowledge comes from in the first place. And if knowing it's wrong even through instinct then where does that instinct of knowing come from?

God made us in His image. That means every human being is worthy of honor and respect, he is not to be offended by thievery, adultery, murder or other offense against him. "Image" includes such characteristics as God's righteousness, holiness and knowledge. God crowned man with glory and honor for He gave man dominion over the rest of His creation.
If we then know stealing is wrong it's because we were made to know, otherwise "In His image" would be a lie. To say God condemns is an excuse for it is us who first condemns the act as being against another human being for even pagans and heathens who know not God teach their children stealing is wrong. Our rebellion against God is not only rebellious against our creator but also rebellious against the created, ourselves.

 

[TanNinety]

Condemnation would have to come from somewhere.

True. For a theist this usually comes from God.

Solo, you are saying that we condemn ourselves. While this might make a good sermon, it is not the core of what aLoneVoice is saying. For us to even be able to condemn ourselves there has to be a system setup with rules upon which obedience or lack there of results in two different consequences. This system was setup by God. We mortals haven’t setup this system of condemnation. You are right in saying we walk into it ourselves but that doesn’t make us the authors of this system of condemnation.

1) Is "grace" logical? I would contend that by it's very definition 'grace' is not logical. However, before I explain, let me make it clear that I believe God is logical - but that does not mean that I (we) have the ability to understand that logic.

Are you saying Calvinism is logically appealing but is different from the true logic of God?

*******

Stranger, I agree with all the points that you have raised.

 

[Solo]

Solo, you are saying that we condemn ourselves. While this might make a good sermon, it is not the core of what aLoneVoice is saying. For us to even be able to condemn ourselves there has to be a system setup with rules upon which obedience or lack there of results in two different consequences. This system was setup by God. We mortals haven’t setup this system of condemnation. You are right in saying we walk into it ourselves but that doesn’t make us the authors of this system of condemnation.

Initially we are condemned through the disobedience of Adam whereby sin entered into the world causing death upon all that enter therein forever after. The condemnation of sin is death, and eternal separation from God Almighty.

Adam had one rule, and he was unable to obey that one command. Ever since, all of Adam's offspring are condemned. That is what Jesus is speaking of in John 3.

Now, those that are condemned, but come into the light believe God Almighty, but those that remain condemned do so because they enjoy the life that they are living in the darkness. When the light is turned on for those of us whom the Holy Spirit quickened, we have an opportunity to become eternally secure in Christ Jesus. How? By repenting from the life that we live in darkness turning to our creator, and believing the works that Jesus Christ did for us.

All of us are or have been condemned, and are only alive eternally by the work of Jesus Christ.

In Adam, we are the authors of this condemnation, however, in Jesus Christ we rest in His work through faith.

God allowed his creature Adam to bring condemnation upon the world, but God in His foreknowledge already had Jesus Christ's work on the cross and our redemption planned out.

So, why are we condemned? Because of our disobedience to God's righteous order. Is it God that condemns us? No. We have condemned ourselves by being born creatures doomed to die, and not believing in Jesus' work on the cross for our redemption. Those of us who are no longer condemned have been saved from this condemnation by the grace of God almighty.

 

[Guest]

I thought you were a Christian. How can you be a Christian with no more knowledge than you have shown thus far?

Would you like to venture into basic Christian teaching so that you can examine yourself and insure that you have truly been born again?

Solo - I did not realize that it was your place to decide if someone is a Christian or not!

Also, do not assume that the questions I ask is out of ignorance or lack of knowledge.

Let's look and condemnation for a second:

Comdemnation requires a standard. There needs to be a right or a wrong. As such to be condemned then means that 1) a transgression happened against that standard and 2) someone in authority over me needs to render judgement.

I cannot condmen myself - why would I? That would be like robbery a bank and then arresting yourself. Who would do that?

Now, can my action lead to condmenation - of course. But someone in higher authority of myself passes that judgement - in the case of robbery: the police and the judicial system have that legal authority over me.

 

[stranger]

Hi,

We condemn ourselves when and if our conscience convicts us that we have done something wrong. Similarly, conviction about a past or contemplated future action can also come from the Holy Spirit.

blessings: stranger

 

[Guest]

Nobody had to teach me how to lie, steal, bear false witness, make excuses, not to share and most of all the motivation to protect/bolster my pride. (which pretty much covers all the former entries).
I was perfectly capable of all these things. I had to be taught these inherent attributes were not good even though they felt right.

Let's run with the assumption only God condemns. If so then a question for an atheist would be "Where does knowledge that stealing is wrong come from when you believe there is no God?". The atheist could not admit God condemns for to do so testifies for the existence of God. Then where does the basis of that judgment come from? To say "I know it's wrong" doesn't answer the question of where that knowledge comes from in the first place. And if knowing it's wrong even through instinct then where does that instinct of knowing come from?

PotLuck - one could argue (and do not take that to mean that I am making the arguement or agree with it) that to lie, to steal, to cheat, etc etc.. do not benefit society as a whole. And that society is better off working together than working as individuals. My children had no concept of what a lie was until I taugh them what a lie was. My children had no concept of selfishness until I told me - 'don't touch that, it's daddy's'.

God made us in His image. That means every human being is worthy of honor and respect, he is not to be offended by thievery, adultery, murder or other offense against him.

While I agree, realize that there are other faiths that believe the same thing without needing ot believe in 'our' God.

"Image" includes such characteristics as God's righteousness, holiness and knowledge. God crowned man with glory and honor for He gave man dominion over the rest of His creation.

I am more curious about what you mean as "dominion" - or better yet, what you believe that dominion means.

To say God condemns is an excuse for it is us who first condemns the act as being against another human being for even pagans and heathens who know not God teach their children stealing is wrong. Our rebellion against God is not only rebellious against our creator but also rebellious against the created, ourselves.

Perhaps this is where the discussion is breaking down. Perhaps I was not clear enough in that when I was mentioned condmenation I was referring to the ultimate condmenation of hell.

 

[Solo]

Solo - I did not realize that it was your place to decide if someone is a Christian or not!

Also, do not assume that the questions I ask is out of ignorance or lack of knowledge.

Let's look and condemnation for a second:

Comdemnation requires a standard. There needs to be a right or a wrong. As such to be condemned then means that 1) a transgression happened against that standard and 2) someone in authority over me needs to render judgement.

I cannot condmen myself - why would I? That would be like robbery a bank and then arresting yourself. Who would do that?

Now, can my action lead to condmenation - of course. But someone in higher authority of myself passes that judgement - in the case of robbery: the police and the judicial system have that legal authority over me.

Why did you not answer my questions posed in a previous thread. I would be able to teach you the truth by your answers, but you run from it for some reason. Why? I will pose the questions again, in case you innocently missed them.

If you walk in front of a train, whose fault is it, yours or God's?

If you fail to walk in obedience to God, whose fault is it, yours or God's?

PS Discernment of an individual is promted by the Holy Spirit in availing the fruits of those that believers come into contact with. It is necessary for me to discern whether one is a believer or not so that I can know where to start in the teachings necessary to assist in ones growth to be more like Jesus Christ. Christians are to help their fellow Christians by reproving, correcting, and instucting through the Scriptures as indicated in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. I also have not seen any of your posts using Scripture to back up any of your comments. That is suspect.

 

[Guest]

Why did you not answer my questions posed in a previous thread. I would be able to teach you the truth by your answers, but you run from it for some reason. Why? I will pose the questions again, in case you innocently missed them.

If you walk in front of a train, whose fault is it, yours or God's?

If you fail to walk in obedience to God, whose fault is it, yours or God's?

I did answer your question. Condemnation is not about assessing guilt or fault. Condemnation comes after "guilt/fault" has already been established.

Again, as I asked - if I rob a bank why would I condem myself for doing it? My actions might LEAD to condemnation - but ultimately that comdemnation comes from someone else. not me.

 

[TanNinety]

If you walk in front of a train, whose fault is it, yours or God's?

I am guessing the train in your analogy is condemnation and the implicit rail road tracks(walking in front of) is disobedience.

Now Solo, you seem to imply that since I am walking in front of the train that I am condemning myself. But the right answer is in the question you have asked.

"Whose fault is it?"
The fault is mine. But the train is not and certainly not the track it chugs along. The train i.e., condemnation is God's. If God didn't place that train on the tracks in the first place then even though I am whistling and walking down the tracks of disobedience I would never get hit by the train of condemnation.

This ultimate condemnation comes from God. You are not the driver in the train so you are not condemning yourself. The system that God has created ultimately drives who is condemned and who is not.

You seem to like Calvinistic view point of things, then how come you are saying "we condemn ourselves" which sounds like taking the sovereignty away from God that Calvinists crave about?

 

[Solo]

I am guessing the train in your analogy is condemnation and the implicit rail road tracks(walking in front of) is disobedience.

Now Solo, you seem to imply that since I am walking in front of the train that I am condemning myself. But the right answer is in the question you have asked.

"Whose fault is it?"
The fault is mine. But the train is not and certainly not the track it chugs along. The train i.e., condemnation is God's. If God didn't place that train on the tracks in the first place then even though I am whistling and walking down the tracks of disobedience I would never get hit by the train of condemnation.

This ultimate condemnation comes from God. You are not the driver in the train so you are not condemning yourself. The system that God has created ultimately drives who is condemned and who is not.

You seem to like Calvinistic view point of things, then how come you are saying "we condemn ourselves" which sounds like taking the sovereignty away from God that Calvinists crave about?

Condemnation would have never entered into the world had Adam heeded God's warning not to.

Those that heed the warning that the train will kill them if they stand in front of it while it is coming down the track will not be condemned. The condemnation is a fact of what will happen if they disobey the warning. All individuals who stand on active railroad tracks are condemned already unless they are obedient to the warning. Continuing in condemnation is their fault. Condemnation came from Adam's disobedience, and those who do not gain eternal life are condemned for their disobedience.

 

[TanNinety]

Solo, while I agree wholeheartedly with the entirety of your last post I still fail to see how you have made your case for, “we condemn ourselvesâ€Â.

By your reasoning of, since it’s our fault we are condemning ourselves, we can conclude that since it’s our faith we are justifying ourselves. But I already know that you won’t agree that we justify ourselves.

If our faith still needs to be justified by God it naturally follows that our faults need to be condemned by God.

Justification and Condemnation come from God. Just like we can’t justify ourselves we can’t condemn ourselves. Christ justified the sheep saying come into the kingdom prepared for you. But it wasn’t the goats that said, “We will depart from you and condemn ourselves because we were at faultâ€Â. It was Christ Himself who condemned the goats saying “depart from me, ye who practiced lawlessnessâ€Â.

May be it is the word condemn that is ambiguous. How about we use “judgment� Certainly we don’t judge ourselves by our faults or faith. It is God who ultimately judges everyone according to their deeds.