Appeal of Calvinism....

[Solo]

Solo, while I agree wholeheartedly with the entirety of your last post I still fail to see how you have made your case for, “we condemn ourselvesâ€Â.

By your reasoning of, since it’s our fault we are condemning ourselves, we can conclude that since it’s our faith we are justifying ourselves. But I already know that you won’t agree that we justify ourselves.

If our faith still needs to be justified by God it naturally follows that our faults need to be condemned by God.

Justification and Condemnation come from God. Just like we can’t justify ourselves we can’t condemn ourselves. Christ justified the sheep saying come into the kingdom prepared for you. But it wasn’t the goats that said, “We will depart from you and condemn ourselves because we were at faultâ€Â. It was Christ Himself who condemned the goats saying “depart from me, ye who practiced lawlessnessâ€Â.

May be it is the word condemn that is ambiguous. How about we use “judgment� Certainly we don’t judge ourselves by our faults or faith. It is God who ultimately judges everyone according to their deeds.

Condemnation is the same word that is translated judgment at times in the KJV, but I believe your explanation of the ambiguity that exists is probably the cause of much disagreement or misunderstanding. However, I believe that the real problem lies in the understanding of God's judgment. God's judgment is to delegate the amount of rewards or punishment on those who stand before him. The condemnation or eternal life is already established by a belief or lack of belief on the name of Jesus Christ. The last that anyone has an opportunity to escape the condemnation of everlasting punishment at whatever level is determined at the judgment of the unbelievers, is prior to the last breath that is taken in this world.

The condemnation of all comes from the one man, Adam failing to obey God's warning. God judges man for his works, but the condemnation comes from man's disobedience to God's word. Jesus did not come to condemn, but to save that which man messed up.

 

[Guest]

Solo - you asked me to answer your question. And I did.

I have then in turn asked you the same question twice, and you continue to ignore it.

Now - you can play cat and mouse games if you like - but I do not like to waste my time, nor do I like to waste other peoples time.

You mention that condemnation came into the world through the act of Adam. This raises a few questions:

1) Did Adam have 'free will' to choose to obey or disobey God?

2) If Adam DID have free will, do we all have the same free will? If not, when was it taken away?

3) If Adam DID NOT have free will, why did God destined Adam to fall?

4) Who passed on Adam's condemnation to the whole human race? And did Adam know that if he disobeyed it would impact the who human race?

 

[Guest]

One more question if you will...

Who is driving the train?

If I were to step out in front of a moving car, it would be my responsiblity.

If I were walking and a car hit me, it would be the car's responsibility.

I believe you are confussing the word condemnation to mean "guilt or fault".

 

[Drew]

With respect to the appeal of Calvinism, frankly I see none. I see no Biblical support for it both "directly" (in the form of specific texts that clearly support it) and "indirectly" (I believe that the tenets of Calvinism violate certain general themes in the Scriptures - e.g. taking responsibility for one's own actions).

Although what I am about to write may elicit howls of angry protest, I will suggest a "darker" appeal of Calvinism, namely the appeal of a system which creates a priveleged "us" and an evil "them". By considering oneself to be "elect", one can abdicate the responsiblity to continually "work out one's salvation with fear and trembling". By seeing others as "on the outside", one can more easily dimiss them. I would suggest that we have some evidence of the latter in the posts of a number of supporters of Calvinism in these forums.

I want to be clear that the above is merely a concern that I have about Calvinism, not a postion that I would claim to be well supported.

 

[lovely]

Drew,

Any Religion, or Doctrine (named or not) can be used by satan to deceive those who hold to it (or others who pull something out of it), but it does not mean that God's Truth is not there to some degree. It simply means that we should not make idols of our beliefs, or methods, but be willing to seek God alone. I think it is up to the believer to be discerning, and to be forgiving, when such things can come out of a denomination, or doctrine, or be twisted by other denominations to promote sin. We really are all family, and the chaff will burn up in the end. I think it is best to adhere to Christ alone as best we can.

I think another take could be that believing Calvinists truly do feel that they are completely helpless before God, and are thankful for the mercy He has given. And, I am sure in many Calvinists (even the fullfledged ones) they do work out their salvation with fear and trembling...gleaning God's Truth, and making efforts to apply it. If we were all going to take responsiblity for our actions, then we all deserve death. Working out our salvation with fear and trembling is knowing who God is, what He has done for us (Isaiah 53), and who we are...it has nothing to do with taking responsibility, but rather being grateful for mercy, full of love for God, and acting accordingly because of His Holiness.

It's not my desire to debate the tenents of Calvinism, and for the record I agree with your take on the "darker" side of Calvinism...and any who believe OSAS really. To keep things in perspective, though, I want to say that pride can come out of any denomination and is not the darker side of Calvinsim alone...it is simply something we all struggle with. I believe that those who are Arminian can also struggle with an "earning our way to heaven" mentality, which is also prideful. This darker side is present in all things, and it is why believers must keep to the narrow path....and, yes, even the Calvinists. :wink:

The Lord bless you.

The Lord bless all of you.

 

[Guest]

This discussion on Calvinism reminds me of the many discussions in College we had on this topic. Here is what someone once told me (and yes, I realize that it is not a 'perfect illustration', but I believe you will get the point) (and no pun is intended this my illustration also uses a train track)

Imagine yourself in the middle of a train track (with no train coming :D ).

Looking down to your left there is a train rail and to your right there is a train rail. On one side is Calvinism and on the other Armenism (sp).

Now lift your eyes to the horizon, to the point where the sky 'touches' the earth. In the distance, where the sky touches the earth, it appears that the two tracks become one. There, at that point - that is where God is.

Let's be honest with ourselves, even the angels marvel at the gift of salvation God has given us.

 

[Fnerb]

My pastor once told me (somewhat like your train track illustration) that one on side you have Calvinism, on the other Arminianism and in between them is Lutheranism. :

Too many -ism's... :wink:

 

[stranger]

Appeal of Calvinism?

No one is really a Calvinist except Calvin himself - while many label themselves retrospectively as Calvinist - I see this as Calvinist by proxy. Now the diminishing of Calvin occurred, as it does for everyone, during a lifetime. After threescore and ten years (or prior death) Calvin's life witness passed away in an unmarked grave.

The present day Calvinist offers a lesser role of 'teacher preacher and reformer' to would be adherents. That their aim is to protect the integrity of the the Gospel they affirm readily enough by saying 'grace alone' etc. But the fact that unless doctrine is apostolic with apostolic witness it is powerless to move men's hearts. Without true apostolic witness suggests to me we have in effect teaching without apostolic person(a) or accountability. This latter aspect of accountability Drew identified in a prior post. Similarly, we may well ask from whom did Calvin's teacher's receive their teaching - from man or God?

That apostolic teaching is received directly from God and requires apostolic witness is presupposed here - that apostolic teaching without witness is not apostolic teaching. This poses the ultimate question and dilemma to the Calvinist:

Is Calvinistic teaching apostolic and is the witness to that teaching apostolic?

The contemporary Calvinist by proxy has to assure the reader audience that the lesser role of 'teacher, preacher or reformer' was/continues to be apostolic in all doctrine and witness. But I fear that a mere man though he be teacher, preacher and reformer has been appointed alongside mere apostolic men like Paul, Peter and Apollos. Is there a case for living apostolic succession here?

blessings: stranger

 

[Drew]

But the fact that unless doctrine is apostolic with apostolic witness it is powerless to move men's hearts. Without true apostolic witness suggests to me we have in effect teaching without apostolic person(a) or accountability.

Can you please explain what you mean here in more "laymen" terms?

 

[lovely]

stranger, (I like your name, btw)

Wouldn't your post apply to any believer, or disciple of Christ?

The Lord bless you.

 

[stranger]

Can you please explain what you mean here in more "laymen" terms?

Hi,

Simply this, that the bottom line is apostolic faith when all is said and done. While I do not like any adjectives attached to truth, such as the 'real truth', or the 'unmitigated truth', the truth God revealed can be no other than apostolic and it bears a quality that differentiates it from all other claims to truth - like when Jesus taught with authority not as the scribes and pharisees. So to take the supreme example - it was not only what Jesus said - but what He was in His person(a) that moved the hearts of men.

The reproducing of a system of theology be that system Calvinism, Lutheranism or any other ism by rote - without being taught by God is the act of regurgitating what men teach - akin to when Jeremiah said ' they steal their words from one another', If you know the sources of mere men you know the doctrine before it is expounded! So what is lacking here is accountability - to God as well as to the church who accept a standard less than apostolic and the ability to differentiate between apostolic and that which claims to be apostolic.

I admit - the layman's terms may have escaped me.

 

[stranger]

stranger, (I like your name, btw)

Wouldn't your post apply to any believer, or disciple of Christ?

The Lord bless you.

Hi,

Not if what my witness is and what I am saying measured by this self same standard - is found wanting.

 

[Jay T]

Calvinism, fails to take this Bible verse, into consideration.

Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness ? "

 

[Solo]

Calvinism, fails to take this Bible verse, into consideration.

Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness ? "

Is that sin unto PHYSICAL death? Once one is born again, he/she is promised eternal life, yet the physical body will die. What sin do you do, that will lead to death? Believers are not afraid of the truth, but those who are trapped in the lies of satan can not come to the light with truth.

What righteousness can a believer have other than the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to him for obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ?

 

[stranger]

. . .

What righteousness can a believer have other than the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to him for obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ?

`The righteousness of Jesus Christ imparted to him because he believes the Gospel of Jesus Christ.' More explicitly, to experience the fullness of Christ indwelling us through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jay T]

Is that sin unto PHYSICAL death? Once one is born again, he/she is promised eternal life, yet the physical body will die. What sin do you do, that will lead to death?

Any sin leads to eternal death......
Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Believers are not afraid of the truth, but those who are trapped in the lies of satan can not come to the light with truth.

And the Bib e test as to who has the truth.....
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

What righteousness can a believer have other than the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to him for obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ?

And since the commandments of God are Righteousness ({Psalms 119:172).....Christ imputs to Chrisstians, the grace, to keep the commandments, including the 7th day sabbath.

The purpose of the Gospel is to destroy sin.....
And sin is defined in the Bible as breaking any one of God's commandments, (1 John 3:4 & Romans 7:7)

 

[Solo]

Is that sin unto PHYSICAL death? Once one is born again, he/she is promised eternal life, yet the physical body will die. What sin do you do, that will lead to death?

Any sin leads to eternal death......
Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Which sin have you committed recently that has caused your name to be blotted out of God's book?

When was the last time that you have sinned?

Believers are not afraid of the truth, but those who are trapped in the lies of satan can not come to the light with truth.

And the Bib e test as to who has the truth.....
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

And you not speaking according to the word of God means that you have no light in you.

What righteousness can a believer have other than the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to him for obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ?

And since the commandments of God are Righteousness ({Psalms 119:172).....Christ imputs to Chrisstians, the grace, to keep the commandments, including the 7th day sabbath.

The purpose of the Gospel is to destroy sin.....
And sin is defined in the Bible as breaking any one of God's commandments, (1 John 3:4 & Romans 7:7)

And since we who are believers, keep all seven days of the week holy to the Lord, we will have seven times the glory as do you who only keeps one day holy?

Is lying a sin? When you put forth the deception that you do not sin, it is a lie.

 

[Jay T]

And since we who are believers, keep all seven days of the week holy to the Lord, we will have seven times the glory as do you who only keeps one day holy?

ONLY those who do....exactly as Jesus Christ says to do, show the glory of God.

Is lying a sin? When you put forth the deception that you do not sin, it is a lie.

I never said I did not sin.....I never said I did sin.
And why do you accuse me of sin, when you judge me, thereby committing sin yourself !


My job is to prepare people for God's Judgment Day (Everlasting Gospel of Revelation 14:6,7)....by making them aware of what God will judge People by, on that Day.

 

[Rick W]

I never said I did sin..

I do, every day. So? No biggie. I'm a sinner. If anyone tells me that, which has happened, my reply is, "Yes, and I'm forgiven."

I don't think naming anyone a sinner is judgment but fact. For all of us. It's truth, bare and simple. I sinned yesterday, I'll sin today and I'll sin tomorrow. And ask forgiveness. Hopefully, prayfully I'll do better and I believe I have.
Can I attain blamelessness? Already did, from the very instant I was saved. So I continue to mature spiritually in this wretched body of sin. It's a growing process. I become less me, more Him. The things I do become less from me, more from Him.
I surrendered.

 

[Jay T]

I do, every day. So? No biggie. I'm a sinner. If anyone tells me that, which has happened, my reply is, "Yes, and I'm forgiven."

OBSERVE these 2 Bible verses....they are saying oposite things:#1.) 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

#2.) 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

NOW....whose side are you on ?

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

I don't think naming anyone a sinner is judgment but fact.

When a person admits to committing a KNOWN sin......they tell who is controlling them.
[quote:0a2d8]
For all of us. It's truth, bare and simple. I sinned yesterday, I'll sin today and I'll sin tomorrow.

READ THIS:
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

And ask forgiveness. Hopefully, prayfully I'll do better and I believe I have.
Can I attain blamelessness? Already did,

BE CAREFULL !!!
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

from the very instant I was saved.

BE CAREFULL ......
James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

So I continue to mature spiritually in this wretched body of sin. It's a growing process. I become less me, more Him. The things I do become less from me, more from Him.
I surrendered.

[/quote:0a2d8]
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.