ARE Big Churches Better?

[Vince]

A little info here:

The original study had produced a lot of surprise because it's results were contrary to what many Christians expected. The study included more small church people because the majority of church attenders are attending small churches.

 

[Vince]

Getting back to the study, it concluded that small churches often have bullies. It stated that these bullies are tolerated and excused, because the church is afraid of dying out if they lose them.

Folks, I've been saved almost forty years, and I taught Christian school for ten years. One small church we were in had two bullies. Two medium-sized churches had one bully apiece. Two Christian schools had a bully on staff.

 

[handy]

. Smaller membership churches are notorious for harboring bullies and terrorists, that is, people who behave badly in order to “get their own way.â€Â
...
Beyond the accountability of bullies and terrorists, members and leaders are seldom held accountable for discipleship practices either. It’s the rare small membership church that not only insists, but actually inquires of its leaders and members whether they’ve read scripture during the week, or shared their faith, or even prayed. In addition, those who do not keep their commitments in terms of participation, or even in accomplishing the ministry tasks they agreed to fulfill, are rarely removed from leadership.

"Small churches are notorious for harboring bullies and terrorists..."

Notorious? This would mean that it's not just common to find bullies and terrorists in small churches, it would be rare to find one that doesn't have bullies and terrorists running around.

Really Vince, I'm getting to the point where I'm rejecting Tenny-Brittian's conclusions on the study as being totally biased. Or else he is using a very broad and general definition of "bully" and especially "terrorist". I reviewed the Barna Group study and in fact didn't even find any reference to bullying or terrorism in the study.

 

[jasoncran]

I think both have strenghts and weakness, the small church has the intamacy, but lacks the overall large amounts of funds to help the poor on a large scale. The large church tends to lack intamacy , unless cell groups are there, but can do much for the poor. either way it's the Lord that does the work through us,and should go were he leads us.

jason

 

[Vince]

"Small churches are notorious for harboring bullies and terrorists..."

I confess my own surprise at the statement. The author didn't define what he meant by "terrorist." And if small churches are "notorious" for harboring bullies, who did I never hear of this before his article? But I have encountered church bullies before.

 

[handy]

Vince, what do you mean by "bully" in this context? Are you referring to someone who is sincere enough but just really strong minded? Or someone who truly has evil intent in their heart?

I must admit that my dad was one of the former. He was a very strong minded person and wasn't bashful about voicing his opinions or working toward what he sincerely felt was what the Lord will. However, his love for his fellow congregants, his family and the lost was most sincere.

As far as someone who is a real bully, someone who works to undermine others so that they can hold power over others, then I've yet to see any church tolerate such a one. 'Smatter of fact, my own husband "perp-walked" a teen out the doors for such behavior. (The kid threatened another kid with a knife. Long story but it was all resolved.)

 

[jasoncran]

Vince, what do you mean by "bully" in this context? Are you referring to someone who is sincere enough but just really strong minded? Or someone who truly has evil intent in their heart?

I must admit that my dad was one of the former. He was a very strong minded person and wasn't bashful about voicing his opinions or working toward what he sincerely felt was what the Lord will. However, his love for his fellow congregants, his family and the lost was most sincere.

As far as someone who is a real bully, someone who works to undermine others so that they can hold power over others, then I've yet to see any church tolerate such a one. 'Smatter of fact, my own husband "perp-walked" a teen out the doors for such behavior. (The kid threatened another kid with a knife. Long story but it was all resolved.)

perp-walked, the arm bar take down or the escort does wonders. My church is small and to my knowledge we have no "bullies"

 

[lovely]

We attend a small assembly right now, about 15 families who are steady, and another 10 or so who visit when they can, and while we do not have a lot of church sponsored programs we consider ministry to be the daily life of the believer. Fathers, mothers, children all being servant lights in their homes and communities. I think we need to define 'ministry'. While I would encourage people to do volunteer work in sponsored church ministries as they are able, what about those things that aren't church sponosred like time spent working hard together with others, and for others, studying the word as families, discipling young adults and children who are believers, sharing the Gospel with friends, family, and neighbors as led by the Spirit, practicing hospitality with our neighbors and the body, caring for the sick with meals and childcare, spending time with widows and helping them with repairs, and helping orphans with money, time, or adoption? A program sponsored by the church is not bad, but is it the only ministry opportunity? Many ministry opportunities can be family sponsored, friend sponsored, etc. I wonder if the study took these things into consideration?

In the past month these are some things our family has been involved in, because God gave us the opportunity and the ability. Some families were called to do more this past month, and some were called to do less, because God is the One who is in charge of it all and gives us the grace...we can not boast.

1. Welcomed lost family members in our home for a month, fed them, and gave them money to get back on their feet.
2. Spent three days last week watching a brother and sister's younger children, preparing them three meals daily, while our children worked with them to fix up a house that needs to sell...we also made signs and other such tasks to help out.
3. The older boys volunteered to help younger homeschooled children to learn to play the game of soccer for several hours Friday along with setting up, and tearing down, fields....they will do this for another eight weeks.
4. Michael conducts a family Bible study nightly in our home, has an e-ministry, and gives the word in our assembly. He also works full time and we run a small farm to raise grass-fed beef, organic veggies, free-range eggs, etc.
5. I have a ministry in my home serving Michael's ministries, taking the primary role in educating the children (we just started two weeks ago), taking on the responsibilities of hospitality, and so on.

I guess I am saying that the church sometimes places special prority on their programs/ministries while overlooking some of the primary ministries in the life of a believer...even pulling believers away from these other Spirit-led ministries in some instances. We will be volunteering once a week again this year too in an outside ministry sponsored by our church beginning in October, because God has led us to it and we have the ability, but not all families will, not all families are called to it by our Lord, because they are busy being about their Father's business in other ways.

I am convinced that we are the body, and one church, and so I couldn't endorse a single method over just the leading of the Spirit in all parts of the body. Big churches and small churches all make up the Church, and while one may have more programs it doesn't mean that they are 'better' in ministry. While the other may have more opportunity to disciple, it doesn't mean that they are. Churches, assemblies, etc. should be evalutated individually and not lumped.

The Lord bless.

 

[jasoncran]

We attend a small assembly right now, about 15 families who are steady, and another 10 or so who visit when they can, and while we do not have a lot of church sponsored programs we consider ministry to be the daily life of the believer. Fathers, mothers, children all being servant lights in their homes and communities. I think we need to define 'ministry'. While I would encourage people to do volunteer work in sponsored church ministries as they are able, what about those things that aren't church sponosred like time spent working hard together with others, and for others, studying the word as families, discipling young adults and children who are believers, sharing the Gospel with friends, family, and neighbors as led by the Spirit, practicing hospitality with our neighbors and the body, caring for the sick with meals and childcare, spending time with widows and helping them with repairs, and helping orphans with money, time, or adoption? A program sponsored by the church is not bad, but is it the only ministry opportunity? Many ministry opportunities can be family sponsored, friend sponsored, etc. I wonder if the study took these things into consideration?

In the past month these are some things our family has been involved in, because God gave us the opportunity and the ability. Some families were called to do more this past month, and some were called to do less, because God is the One who is in charge of it all and gives us the grace...we can not boast.

1. Welcomed lost family members in our home for a month, fed them, and gave them money to get back on their feet.
2. Spent three days last week watching a brother and sister's younger children, preparing them three meals daily, while our children worked with them to fix up a house that needs to sell...we also made signs and other such tasks to help out.
3. The older boys volunteered to help younger homeschooled children to learn to play the game of soccer for several hours Friday along with setting up, and tearing down, fields....they will do this for another eight weeks.
4. Michael conducts a family Bible study nightly in our home, has an e-ministry, and gives the word in our assembly. He also works full time and we run a small farm to raise grass-fed beef, organic veggies, free-range eggs, etc.
5. I have a ministry in my home serving Michael's ministries, taking the primary role in educating the children (we just started two weeks ago), taking on the responsibilities of hospitality, and so on.

I guess I am saying that the church sometimes places special prority on their programs/ministries while overlooking some of the primary ministries in the life of a believer...even pulling believers away from these other Spirit-led ministries in some instances. We will be volunteering once a week again this year too in an outside ministry sponsored by our church beginning in October, because God has led us to it and we have the ability, but not all families will, not all families are called to it by our Lord, because they are busy being about their Father's business in other ways.

I am convinced that we are the body, and one church, and so I couldn't endorse a single method over just the leading of the Spirit in all parts of the body. Big churches and small churches all make up the Church, and while one may have more programs it doesn't mean that they are 'better' in ministry. While the other may have more opportunity to disciple, it doesn't mean that they are. Churches, assemblies, etc. should be evalutated individually and not lumped.

The Lord bless.

that's about the size of my church. I do what i can, iw i volunteer to mow the yard and other things

 

[Vince]

My friend Handy asked: Vince, what do you mean by "bully" in this context?

1) Medium-sized church. Pastor's wife was put in charge of the secretaries and constantly insulted them. I was assistant pastor, and she constantly insulted me. A frequent liar whose husband backed her up against the staff.God blessed us in taking the children's church from 175 to 300. She demanded that she be put in charge, her husband obeyed, and three years later she had it down to 10.

2) Medium-sized church. Daughter of deacon chairman. Hired as a Christan school teacher, she constantly rebelled against the principal and her father backed her up.

3) Christian school. The second grade teacher constantly encouraged the high school students to rebel against their teachers (including me). Frequent revenge against anyone who made her children behave, including calling parents students and urging them to pull their children out of the school because their teacher was a bully, if the teacher had made one of her children behave. Helped organize and operate a telephone slander network to help students who had broken the rules and wanted to lie their way out of it.Told the pastor to his face that she would organize a church split if they fired her, listing the names of the families who would leave, since she had grown up in the church. They finally fired her.

4) Christian school. Assistant principal. The new principal had a policy of backing up the students against the teachers, without exception. She spied on and publicly insulted teachers. Not a real problem, though. She lacked ability as a bully.

5) Small Baptist church here in Mexico. Woman decided that she was the leader of all the woman, Appointed loyalists to church positions, without the authority to do so. They put me in charge of children's church (four kids) and she waged war for two years, often canceling children's church, organizing a rival children's church, "firing" me, urging parents not to let their children attend, etc., although she held no authority in the church. PS. God blessed us, and the children's church grew into the twenties.

6) Same church. Head of the pulpit committee would not allow any search for a pastor while she seized all the pastoral authority she could. The pulpit committee held secret business meetings which the church members could not attend, and pretended to have a business meeting every three months in which no one was allowed to speak without their approval. After taking the church from 120 to 30 in one year, they brought back a former pastor who straightened things out.

 

[jasoncran]

sad stories vince, indeed, i have seen some of that when i worked for a large baptist church, never again will i work for the church as a paid employee. I will volunteer. but no work, too much gossip and poliitics. ugly like you wouldnt believe, no wonder sinners call us hyprocrites, look at these stories, bringing shame to the name of the lord.

 

[Vince]

Thanks, Jasoncran. I should point out that these events occurred over a period of 39 years.

 

[Vince]

I was intrigued by the author's statement that this kind of bullying behavior would not be tolerated elsewhere. When I taught Christian school, some of our students attended a small Southern Baptist church. A fistfight broke out at one of their business meetings. It was smoothed over, but it left a bad testimony (which the students thought was hilarious).

Folks, I worked fourteen years at a paper mill, and if we had had a fistfight during a team meeting, someone would have been fired.

 

[justvisiting]

It's not the size of the church that I look for. It's the minister running it. If I don't get the heavenly vibes.ie. his teaching is sound, and I can see it in scripture...see ya later. I don't care whether the church has 10 or 10,000. The doctrine has to be sound, and the minister has to be a Spirit filled, Bible preaching man of God. I don't care how many degrees he has either. The Spirit and the Word... not the architecture and a ministers escapades in erudite, earthly philosophy. A man of God...a man of God,not a man among men.

 

[Tina]

^

No church is perfect whether it's big or small.

A small church that teaches right biblical doctrines is better than a big one that leads the whole congregation astray with false doctrines !


:o

 

[Vince]

My friend Justvisiting writes "It's not the size of the church that I look for. It's the minister running it..."

We do the children's Wednesday night church at a successful Mexican Baptist church here. The pastor told us that one of the problems with Gringo Christians is that when looking for a church, they start with doctrine. Once they find a church they agree with, they attend there, whether they're happy or not. If they are unhappy enough, they quit.

He said that it is better to start with the pastor. Do you learn from him? Do you grow under his ministry?

I took me decades to learn this, but Justvisitihng and the pastor here are both correct.

 

[Adullam]

The next step is to weaned from a pastor to being under the headship of Christ. When this happens, all the body can function. Christ is the actual Head of the church. This is not mere symbology.