ARE Big Churches Better?

[Adullam]

Having bigger churches has nothing to do with "practicing the truth" of the Bible. No where in Scripture is it mentioned that a house is the place to "do church" nor is it mentioned that a small group of 13 is to be the model for how large a church is to be.

No one is ignoring Scripture since it says nothing of the matter. I can guarantee you that if 3000 were added in a single day with more believing each day, they didn't break it all down into tiny groups. They were Jews so why would they suddenly do things completely different than what they had always done?

You are arguing my point! Thank you!

 

[Free]

Having bigger churches has nothing to do with "practicing the truth" of the Bible. No where in Scripture is it mentioned that a house is the place to "do church" nor is it mentioned that a small group of 13 is to be the model for how large a church is to be.

No one is ignoring Scripture since it says nothing of the matter. I can guarantee you that if 3000 were added in a single day with more believing each day, they didn't break it all down into tiny groups. They were Jews so why would they suddenly do things completely different than what they had always done?

You are arguing my point! Thank you!

No, I am not arguing your point. They met in synagogues and at the Temple. Those were not homes and likely not small congregations.

 

[Adullam]

Having bigger churches has nothing to do with "practicing the truth" of the Bible. No where in Scripture is it mentioned that a house is the place to "do church" nor is it mentioned that a small group of 13 is to be the model for how large a church is to be.

No one is ignoring Scripture since it says nothing of the matter. I can guarantee you that if 3000 were added in a single day with more believing each day, they didn't break it all down into tiny groups. They were Jews so why would they suddenly do things completely different than what they had always done?

You are arguing my point! Thank you!

No, I am not arguing your point. They met in synagogues and at the Temple. Those were not homes and likely not small congregations.

LOL. You are reading modern practice somehow into the bible. The church met in simple homes for hundreds of years. The size of the group was dictated by the intimate gatherings of disciples. Not until Constantine and the rise of Christendom do we see sacred buildings, steeples and the like. The masses then entered into these buildings...now called churches and we get the seeds of modern churchianity.

But the bible speaks of home fellowships thoughout the decades that the narrative records.

BTW, there are many things that are ignored in the bible by modern believers. This thread is not meant to be comprehensive about these.

 

[Free]

No more are we supposed to meet in homes than we are to wear sandals or dress like they did. We are told what to believe, how to behave as Christians, and how to live in proper relationship to other believers, but no where in Scripture is there a model set forth that the Church is to follow.

My point is that it doesn't matter whether the church meets in a large building, a home, a large group or a small group. It is the meeting together that is important.

BTW, there are many things that are ignored in the bible by modern believers. This thread is not meant to be comprehensive about these.

And there are many things ignored by those who say that modern churches are wrong and we should always meet in homes because "that is how they did it." Not in the least of which is that some homes are as large as commercial buildings. You do not, and cannot, live consistently with that argument.

 

[Adullam]

We are discussing the subject of this thread. No bigger churches aren't better. That is obvious. Jesus spoke one way to the crowds and another way to those He was in intimate fellowship with. He sent the crowds home. The disciples remained with Him. If everyone brings a song and a teaching as Paul says the church does....how long would the meeting last?
It is no surprise that most belong to the crowd and not to the few. Are we a part of the many or the few? Are we afraid of intimacy with others? Are we willing to lay down our lives for the brethren? There is a big difference between attending a mass rally and BEING the church. There is no safety in numbers. We are called to love the brethren not a building or a church service.

Most don't understand the necessity of 2 or 3 gathered in His name. They believe that the faith is a personal matter. That the presence of Christ among the disciples doesn't further empower them to be obedient.

The church is a divine community of faith. These meet daily for mutual encouragement and edification. We are accountable to those whom we know well. It is too easy to go to a big assembly and be anonymous. Too easy! But isn't that the whole idea??? ;)


Are we after authenticity....or the mask?

 

[Vic C.]

Actually a smaller church would be from 10 to 50 people! Intimacy is key to discipleship. Have many here realized that Jesus' community composed of only 12? Why do so many Christians seek to do the opposite of the practice found in the biblical text? We must rank as the only faith in history that ignores the teaching of their own scriptures. And we claim it is more authoritive than any other teaching. Why do we not seek to practice it's contents?

The number of Jesus' Apostles was 12. His followers were in the thousands.

How many believers were there in each of the seven churches? Scripture doesn't say where they met or what their number was. So, I don't know what authority dictates that 10-50 people constitutes a small church. Hey, I consider 200 small. Who says we are doing anything contrary to scripture? I don't see any one verse that commands us to keep our numbers small.

Adullam, I am fully aware that you are of the "church age is over" crowd, which itself is not scriptural. So, I feel somewhat confused why we are being wrongly accused of being un-scriptural.

 

[Adullam]

Actually a smaller church would be from 10 to 50 people! Intimacy is key to discipleship. Have many here realized that Jesus' community composed of only 12? Why do so many Christians seek to do the opposite of the practice found in the biblical text? We must rank as the only faith in history that ignores the teaching of their own scriptures. And we claim it is more authoritive than any other teaching. Why do we not seek to practice it's contents?

The number of Jesus' Apostles was 12. His followers were in the thousands.

How many believers were there in each of the seven churches? Scripture doesn't say where they met or what their number was. So, I don't know what authority dictates that 10-50 people constitutes a small church. Hey, I consider 200 small. Who says we are doing anything contrary to scripture? I don't see any one verse that commands us to keep our numbers small.

Adullam, I am fully aware that you are of the "church age is over" crowd, which itself is not scriptural. So, I feel somewhat confused why we are being wrongly accused of being un-scriptural.

I am merely stating what is actually in the bible. People can do as they wish....but that doesn't make it biblical. Church age ended???? Where did you get this? I don't know you....you don't know me. I am advocating a biblical basis for church. I am precisely saying that we are to follow Christ in the same way as the disciples did. Are you talking about Christendom? Babylon?

A large gathering eliminates the possibility of everyone taking part....bringing a teaching, an exhortation, a song etc...

Now here is what is actually written

1Cr 14:26 ¶ How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.


Everyone....are we to ignore that?

We are only 40 of us and our meetings last for 8 hours....so a church of 400 would meet for ...umm...80 hours in a row, so that all could participate and share a common life together.

The very practice of the NT churches excludes the possibility of big churches. That is, unless we ignore the bible!

 

[Nick]

I think big churches are "better" in that they have more resources to perform in reach and outreach ministries that help people. Also, I think larger churches make more effort to reach new members and the unbelievers (that's how they got to be large in the first place). Basically, they actively grow the congregation and spread the gospel.

To address the criticism that people become "lost" in large churches, I put the blame on the individual member. It's not up to the pastor to spoon feed you every Sunday and then expect to grow in any measurable way. People need to get up and get involved. I attend a large church and there are small groups, short and long term missions, men's groups, women's group, singles groups, children's ministries, and on and on. There are plenty of ways to get connected and you have nobody to blame but yourself if you are sitting on the sidelines doing nothing.

Small churches seem too much like "clubs" and maintaining the status quo and making the members comfortable is the primary goal. That kind of atmosphere promotes what I call spiritual "dry rot". Gossip seems to be more of an issue as well. I'm not saying they are all like that because I'm sure there are exceptions. But those are my observations.

Tend to agree, especially in the second paragraph. Our church is like that as well.

 

[Apostle Paul]

My brother has a saying that fits just about every situation where there are valid differences of opinion: "Whatever floats your boat." - that's not very theological, but it certainly is practical.

I enjoy the dynamic of attending events where there are 1000's of people. I enjoy the intimacy of a group of about 8-12. I feel that that we need both of those things. The congregation that focuses only on the 1000's will miss the intimacy of small groups. The small groups that only focus on being a small group will miss the dynamic of the larger congregation.

As a pastor-leader my preference is a congregation of 100-250 with a focus on small groups. Now, that is not to say that if I were called to a congregation of 5000 I would flatly turn it down... sooo... If any of you megachurches out there are looking for a used up preacher in his 60's, hey; here I am.....

 

[Vince]

The first surprise from the study was that people in large churches tend to believe more strongly in Biblical Christianity. A second surprise was that people in large churches are more active as Christians. Both small and large churches gave the same response to "Have you prayed in the last week?", but large churches outperformed small churches in every other area of Christian activity.

It could be argued that large churches have more things going on, and therefor have more opportunities for Christian activity.

 

[Adullam]

The last 2 posts stress activity. This is the normal way of seeing Christianity. Are we become human doings rather than human beings? Are we about ministry and function more than relationship? We are not a function. Where are the deep relationships that goes on into eternity? Where is the commitment? We hide our shallowness with functions, activities, and numbers. This is the problem with big churches...they cater to the crowds. They don't challenge our fear of intimacy and exposure to the truth.
We adjust ourselves to the proximity that doesn't upset our comfort level.

A survey? Any survey can be skewed. A survey cannot detect spiritual life. A survey can ask me if I understand the theory of relativity and I can respond ...yes....without understanding that I don't really know more than the common formula of E=mc2. A more educated person will realize that he doesn't know since he is more informed...he will say no with more understanding than my own yes....so the results are opposite to the reality. Have you never heard that...the more I know...the more I realize how little I know?

This is the way with modern Christendom. People think they are born again because of a fuzzy feeling inside....or because of a superficial declaration of faith. Where is the depth? A few disciples who lay down their lives for the Lord and each other changes the world. The truth is anti-statistics. We can't quantify God's way with human means. We reveal more about our own foolishness by doing so than any knowledge we think we might glean from such futility. No wonder that God hides Himself! God works in secret...in intimacy.


Why would Jesus spend years training His disciples in a daily relationship of a shared walk? We have billions of Christians but God is still looking for the one (let alone 2 or 3) disciple who will abide fully in Him. All seek their own. We have incorporated God (in more ways than one) into our own lives. Churches are geared and marketed to respond to people's needs...not God's will. The learning we have received does not necessarily mean spiritual growth. Always learning but remaining outside the zone of the reality of the truth. It is an amazing fact that those who do "get it" are then ostracized by the crowds. It just isn't marketable!

Have we no suspicions about our common practices? Are we allowed to question? We say we have the answers in Jesus Christ....but do we really know the right questions that trigger a proper understanding of the divine equation? What is first in our lives....truly Christ? Are we building on the first love we have received from the first...or are we struggling to even maintain the love we started with? God is watching and waiting. The principalities are not impressed. The world continues to be indifferent. But we're ok with that.




Sure there is a place for large gatherings. But large gatherings of what?

 

[Vince]

Is Christian activity a virtue or a vice?

1Co 15:58 ¶ Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

Working in the flesh, in order to earn God's approval, is a mistake. But working when you are motivated by grace is a source of blessing.

 

[Nick]

The first surprise from the study was that people in large churches tend to believe more strongly in Biblical Christianity. A second surprise was that people in large churches are more active as Christians. Both small and large churches gave the same response to "Have you prayed in the last week?", but large churches outperformed small churches in every other area of Christian activity.

It could be argued that large churches have more things going on, and therefor have more opportunities for Christian activity.

Yes, I agree - the reason for more activity is becasue at a mega church there is more opportunity for that, and also people would most likely be stronger in their faith becasue there are more people - it's more encouraging to be with 1000's of Christians than 100's.

 

[jasoncran]

The first surprise from the study was that people in large churches tend to believe more strongly in Biblical Christianity. A second surprise was that people in large churches are more active as Christians. Both small and large churches gave the same response to "Have you prayed in the last week?", but large churches outperformed small churches in every other area of Christian activity.

It could be argued that large churches have more things going on, and therefor have more opportunities for Christian activity.

Yes, I agree - the reason for more activity is becasue at a mega church there is more opportunity for that, and also people would most likely be stronger in their faith becasue there are more people - it's more encouraging to be with 1000's of Christians than 100's.

i have found that in the larger churches like the small ones it's always the few 10 to 20 percent that do the work and that is expected of them

jason

 

[Vince]

The study came up with some unflattering information on small churches. "Survival of the organization" tends to be a major goal of small churches. Therefor, incompetent people are allowed to hold leadership and can get away with wrong-doing, because the church is afraid of losing them.

 

[Adullam]

The study came up with some unflattering information on small churches. "Survival of the organization" tends to be a major goal of small churches. Therefor, incompetent people are allowed to hold leadership and can get away with wrong-doing, because the church is afraid of losing them.

A home fellowship is not an organization. A home church is not looking to fleece the flock. A bible school does not equip one to love the brethren. How many degrees did Jesus have? What denomination was He? How many diplomas did Peter get?

Your information is exactly backwards. Are you doing this knowingly?

Our only requirement to one another is to love. How that comes out is our ministry. A big church is so far removed from this simplicity as to create a new entity.....which feeds on the souls of men. The institution is there for the institution. People feed the organization. It wants your money so it can grow in worldly power. How very opposite of the way of Christ. Is this so difficult to see?

 

[handy]

From the survey:

Belief description* 1-100** 101-200 201-499 500-999 1000+
Bible is totally accurate in all the principles it teaches 60% 63% 70% 67% 75%
Have personal responsibility to tell others your beliefs 41 44 47 53 61
Your religious faith is very important in your life 82 83 90 88 90
Satan/devil is a living being not just a symbol of evil 30 29 36 38 51
A good person cannot earn a place in Heaven 33 39 47 48 55
On earth Jesus Christ did not commit sins, like other people 49 50 59 65 74
God is the omnipotent, omniscient creator who rules all 81 81 86 86 90
Born again Christian (see definition below) 63 64 69 81 75
Evangelical Christian (see definition below) 9 11 21 24 25
Number of respondents in this subgroup 547 306 247 120 114

* these are descriptions of the actual survey questions, not the wording of the questions actually used in the research.
** Adult attendance on an average weekend
http://www.barna.org/barna-update/artic ... hurch-size

I guess it's because so many of the findings of this survey are at odds with not only my personal experience but the personal experience of a lot of folks that I'm finding it hard not to suspect the survey itself.

One thing that I think is rather odd about this survey is number of respondents to the question. Why did they alter the number of respondents to the survey based upon how large the church was? The smaller the church, the larger the respondents: 547 for churches under 100 and only 114 for churches over 1000. If I was surveying any group of self-proclaimed Christians, it seems to me that the more folks I question, the more percentage is going to be straying off traditional Christianity.

The other thing I would have like to have known were the actual questions, rather just "descriptions" of the questions.

Surveys can and are skewed all the time to get certain results. It appears that this very well may have happened in this case.

 

[Adullam]

My survey: People who advocate big churches look to men and their surveys instead of following the word.

Prove me wrong!

 

[Free]

A home fellowship is not an organization. A home church is not looking to fleece the flock. A bible school does not equip one to love the brethren. How many degrees did Jesus have? What denomination was He? How many diplomas did Peter get?

Your information is exactly backwards. Are you doing this knowingly?

This is not a good argument at all since the education of Jesus or any of the Apostles is irrelevant for obvious reasons.

What a Bible school does do is teach the language that Jesus, the Apostles and the early church all knew and spoke in so that they can have a greater understanding of Scripture. It teaches them how to teach, how to properly exegete Scripture, etc.

Our only requirement to one another is to love. How that comes out is our ministry. A big church is so far removed from this simplicity as to create a new entity.....which feeds on the souls of men. The institution is there for the institution. People feed the organization. It wants your money so it can grow in worldly power. How very opposite of the way of Christ. Is this so difficult to see?

This is all misleading and quite the generalization. There is no "only requirement" to each other; there are many including proper handling of Scripture which I mentioned above. Maybe some big churches want worldly power but maybe none do. You cannot make such a claim with nothing to prove it.

The single biggest problem with house churches is that there is no accountability--no one or no organization to make sure that what is being taught is in fact truth. In rejecting all denominations they further fracture the Church into countless individual churches. You want to argue to Jesus and the Apostles but you being very inconsistent in doing so. The Apostles continually went to each church in every city to make sure that what they were teaching was correct and corrected any error. There was always accountability.

My survey: People who advocate big churches look to men and their surveys instead of following the word.

Prove me wrong!

It's impossible to prove that statement right or wrong.

 

[Adullam]

A home fellowship is not an organization. A home church is not looking to fleece the flock. A bible school does not equip one to love the brethren. How many degrees did Jesus have? What denomination was He? How many diplomas did Peter get?

Your information is exactly backwards. Are you doing this knowingly?

This is not a good argument at all since the education of Jesus or any of the Apostles is irrelevant for obvious reasons.

What a Bible school does do is teach the language that Jesus, the Apostles and the early church all knew and spoke in so that they can have a greater understanding of Scripture. It teaches them how to teach, how to properly exegete Scripture, etc.

Our only requirement to one another is to love. How that comes out is our ministry. A big church is so far removed from this simplicity as to create a new entity.....which feeds on the souls of men. The institution is there for the institution. People feed the organization. It wants your money so it can grow in worldly power. How very opposite of the way of Christ. Is this so difficult to see?

This is all misleading and quite the generalization. There is no "only requirement" to each other; there are many including proper handling of Scripture which I mentioned above. Maybe some big churches want worldly power but maybe none do. You cannot make such a claim with nothing to prove it.

The single biggest problem with house churches is that there is no accountability--no one or no organization to make sure that what is being taught is in fact truth. In rejecting all denominations they further fracture the Church into countless individual churches. You want to argue to Jesus and the Apostles but you being very inconsistent in doing so. The Apostles continually went to each church in every city to make sure that what they were teaching was correct and corrected any error. There was always accountability.

My survey: People who advocate big churches look to men and their surveys instead of following the word.

Prove me wrong!

It's impossible to prove that statement right or wrong.

Bible schools teach Aramaic?

We owe man more than to love them?

Romans 13:8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law."

We are mutually accountable to one another in close fellowships that break bread in homes. You can't hide in a close fellowship. The denomination is only concerned with doctrinal stance since it cannot know people who attend or not at the services for an hour or so. This is simply mirroring the Catholic institution. Sanctification and discipleship is through rites, not relationship.

The answer to the isolation of individual divine communities of faith is to network with others whether institutional or not. We then can be accountable to one another. In this way the fellowship is grown into larger meetings at certain times. So the trend is the opposite to the human design we see today. Accountability in the intimacy of the fellowship of the ecclesia...then a larger congregation of different ecclesia into a larger unity. God indeed works from the grassroots up. But He is not building a worldly empire. This is where men diverge from God's way of simplicity and intimacy. Men crave power. We should give power away if we are truly led by GOD's POWER. This is a test of discipleship. The failures have the word church written on a sign out front.